AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: 95bcwh on 14 Dec 2007, 03:02 pm
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All,
I kind of run out of idea what kind of tweak I can use to improve my system. So I was wondering, if I ever want to add a sub to complement my Salk HT3, which would you recommend??? aa aa aa aa aa
I'm tempted by the idea of flat response between 20Hz to 30Hz.:drool: :drool: Although I'm haven't experienced what kind of difference it will make. :wink:
Thanks for sharing your idea.
barry
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Barry,
If you are using the TacT properly, you should already have bass flat into the mid to low 20's with just the HT3's.
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.
George
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My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.
Yes, like sell it to me. :drool:
PS. I am also known as fsimms. I just wound up registering twice and couldn't remember which alias I was using on my new computer.
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With the exception of perhaps a pipe organ note or two, there really aren't any traditional instruments that play deeper than the HT3's. So, for music, a sub is not really required and would not add much to the mix.
For home theater effects, that is a different story, especially for action type films.
But the problem is, to have really flat response to 20Hz, you really need to move a lot of air. That requires a very large subwoofer with a lot of power behind it.
We recently built a pair of large 15" subs that will be powered by 1000 watts each. The drivers alone were about 45 pounds. They would certainly do the job. But many smaller subs being marketed today are simply not capable of flat response to 20Hz without extensive EQ which robs you of power-handling. At those frequencies, it is all about moving a lot of air and that takes cone area and a lot of power, especially if you want to use a driver that can work well in a reasonably-sized cabinet.
- Jim
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i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
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This is the kind of post that feeds my fears. I don't have my HT3's yet. What I do have is 4 12" woofers per side on an open baffle. A lot of air being moved and especially listening to live concerts (of amplified music), they really add to the live allusion. I've got that response your looking for now, although it is not very defined or quick. Then, right after we got back from RMAF where we "ordered" out HT3's there's an interview with Jim and he mention that POSSIBLY in the future there could be a new flagship for Salk Sound. One of the key elements of that speaker would be that bass response you're looking for. Owners of the HT3's have expressed to me that there is no shortage of low end with them, in fact they usually say the bass is one of the many strengths of the speakers. I lived many years with the Dahlquist (F3 of 37Hz according to the manufacturer) and as good as they could sound at times, that missing low end always left me unsatisfied. I know the HT3's F3 is 29HZ and that is a lot different than 37HZ but then I see your post and.................Is it enough bass when it's the most you've ever had and will it be lacking for me being used to FULL range?
Just processing my fears as I anxiously await the arrival of our HT3's.
Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?
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doug s.
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
In many cases I would certainly agree with you. In this case, however, I don't think crossing the HT3's at 80Hz would represent much of an improvement for two reasons.
First, the woofers used in the HT3's are actually subwoofer drivers in the first place. They are 10" TC Sounds subwoofer drivers very similar to those used in the original Carver Sunfire subs. So they can certainly handle low bass in a very clean, articulate and musical fashion. I doubt that relieving them of duty under 80Hz would positively impact their performance to any great degree above 80Hz.
Second, the gain and phase below 80Hz are right on the money and locked in via the crossover. To set up a subwoofer this accurately would require test and measurement gear of some kind. For most people without such gear, integrating a sub as successfully in order to improve on the HT3's performance would be difficult.
- Jim
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...
Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?
You might want to take a look at the thread on Marbles' "little" sub project with Christof. That will be a beastly setup with HT3's. Tom
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see my post above for recommendations.
the speakers i was using prior to getting outboard amp/x-over & a pair of vnps larger subs were -2db at 20hz. adding the subs improved the bass and the lower midrange, as the main speaker's 10" drivers didn't have to go below 70hz any more.
i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...
if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome. personally, i would order mine unpowered... but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.
doug s.
This is the kind of post that feeds my fears. I don't have my HT3's yet. What I do have is 4 12" woofers per side on an open baffle. A lot of air being moved and especially listening to live concerts (of amplified music), they really add to the live allusion. I've got that response your looking for now, although it is not very defined or quick. Then, right after we got back from RMAF where we "ordered" out HT3's there's an interview with Jim and he mention that POSSIBLY in the future there could be a new flagship for Salk Sound. One of the key elements of that speaker would be that bass response you're looking for. Owners of the HT3's have expressed to me that there is no shortage of low end with them, in fact they usually say the bass is one of the many strengths of the speakers. I lived many years with the Dahlquist (F3 of 37Hz according to the manufacturer) and as good as they could sound at times, that missing low end always left me unsatisfied. I know the HT3's F3 is 29HZ and that is a lot different than 37HZ but then I see your post and.................Is it enough bass when it's the most you've ever had and will it be lacking for me being used to FULL range?
Just processing my fears as I anxiously await the arrival of our HT3's.
Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?
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hi jim,
i never set up my subs w/o using test measurement gear. in the past, this meant using a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer. now, it means using a deqx.
curious, what is the x-over frequency/slope between the woofer & midrange driver on your speaker?
regards,
doug s.
doug s.
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
In many cases I would certainly agree with you. In this case, however, I don't think crossing the HT3's at 80Hz would represent much of an improvement for two reasons.
First, the woofers used in the HT3's are actually subwoofer drivers in the first place. They are 10" TC Sounds subwoofer drivers very similar to those used in the original Carver Sunfire subs. So they can certainly handle low bass in a very clean, articulate and musical fashion. I doubt that relieving them of duty under 80Hz would positively impact their performance to any great degree above 80Hz.
Second, the gain and phase below 80Hz are right on the money and locked in via the crossover. To set up a subwoofer this accurately would require test and measurement gear of some kind. For most people without such gear, integrating a sub as successfully in order to improve on the HT3's performance would be difficult.
- Jim
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boom? i am not talking about boom. i am talking about having it sound like there's an acoustic upright bass in your room. of course, when the music calls for "boom", that's ok, too... 8)
of course, in a small room, too much bass can overload it, & then it's hard to get anything *but* boom... still, a pair of subs, sized for the room, will give you better bass response, imo - two subs will load the room more evenly, & their placement won't be tied to best placement for the main speakers...
doug s.
Man.
I used to have speakers with an F3 of around 30 and an F10 of 20. In room, the F10 is a meaningful stat btw. It was PLENTY of bass!! BOOM!!! But my gauge is live acoustic, not amplified music, so different strokes I guess...Double subs on the HT3s? Why not just buy some used Watt Puppies and save yourself all the crossover headache.
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i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...
if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome. personally, i would order mine unpowered... but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.
doug s.
Thanks for the input but one of the strengths of the HT3's is the seemless blending of the different drivers and high definition and resolution and my Carver woofers are about as clear as mud compared to them.
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then, check out vmps... :wink:
doug s.
i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...
if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome. personally, i would order mine unpowered... but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.
doug s.
Thanks for the input but one of the strengths of the HT3's is the seemless blending of the different drivers and high definition and resolution and my Carver woofers are about as clear as mud compared to them.
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yup, i know that. but upright bass never sounded so real until i hooked up my vmps'. mebbe it's cuz i usually have them crossed over at 70-80hz... and, they seem to add that last bit of foundation to a lot of different music. we're not yust talking "boom" here. there's something to be said for a speaker whose -f3 is 17hz - everything is yust so much cleaner down low. the effortlessness is what you really notice w/a good subwoofer system...
doug s.
boom? i am not talking about boom. i am talking about having it sound like there's an acoustic upright bass in your room. of course, when the music calls for "boom", that's ok, too... 8)
of course, in a small room, too much bass can overload it, & then it's hard to get anything *but* boom... still, a pair of subs, sized for the room, will give you better bass response, imo - two subs will load the room more evenly, & their placement won't be tied to best placement for the main speakers...
doug s.
doug, the lowest note on a four string double bass is 41 Hz. 31 if it's a five stringer.
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hi jim,
i never set up my subs w/o using test measurement gear. in the past, this meant using a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer. now, it means using a deqx.
That is exactly what I was referring to. You would have no problem. Neither would Barry with his TacT unit. But most people do not have access to this type of equipment and/or would not know how to use it properly. In those cases, they would never end up with integration as good as is built-in with the HT3's. That is why we designed it the way we did.
curious, what is the x-over frequency/slope between the woofer & midrange driver on your speaker?
About 250Hz, 2nd order.
- Jim
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Just for clarification purposes, I don't think most people realize how low even a 30Hz tone is. As I said before, other than perhaps an occassional pipe organ note, there are no traditional musical instruments that play any lower. And the HT3's were designed to scale low bass appropriately.
So if we're talking music here, I just don't think a subwoofer would add anyting to the mix. You would simply be substituting one low bass source for another. And in many cases, the quality would not be as good. TC drivers are among the most musical and articulate subwoofer drivers available.
- Jim
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With all due respect Doug, making conjecture about how the HT3's would benefit or not with the addition of stereo subs based on your passed experience with entirely different speakers is of little use. I am pretty well certain the speaker you speak of (ones with 10"s) didn't have any where near the quality of woofer driver that the TC sound driver is. The motor structure of a woofer is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will fair when asked to play bass and midbass simultaneously and if ever there were woofers that could go so with aplomb the TC sounds' woofers is among them.
Typically the reason why woofers playing low mucks up the midrange from the same speakers is usually do to distortion and subsequently inductive modulation. The TC sound drivers have shorting rings like well made pro sound woofers and the better hi-fi woofers from Scan speak and a few others. This makes them much less susceptible to such problems then standard woofer drivers. It would be unwise IMO to try to make a guess at how the HT3 would improve with relief of bass material without experiencing it first hand.
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Selling the Moscode.:o I'm actually thinking of buying another one :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
well you know, I've spent so much time tweaking my system to bring it to the level where it perfectly matches my taste. It's going to be a hussle to change the amp and try to start all over again. Besides, most hybrid amps that potentially sound "more Moscode than Moscode" probably cost a lot more than a Moscode. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: And with 85dB speaker efficiency I do need a high power tube amp which normally cost a bomb! :dunno:
Barry,
If you are using the TacT properly, you should already have bass flat into the mid to low 20's with just the HT3's.
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.
George
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I require excellent deep bass performance for my main system. The Salk HT3 are the only speakers I have owned that I did not want to add a sub. As long as you are feeding the HT3 enough high quality power with a quality source you will not be lacking in the bass department. The dynamics are first rate compared to everything I have heard including Wilson Watt Puppy 6, Verity Audio Sarastro, etc.
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My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode)
Curious about this as I thought the Moscode was the latest amp of choice?
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My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode)
Curious about this as I thought the Moscode was the latest amp of choice?
There is always something better...
George
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One other thing if I may add to clarify: I don't mean to start this thread to imply that I do not get enough bass from my Salk HT3, in fact, let me re-iterate that I have no idea what will adding a sub do to improve the sound of my system. So it's by no means in disrespect to Jim's work. :wink: I'm a happy HT3 owner and I have ordered a second pair!
One of these days I will have to borrow fsimm's Tact 2.2X and his SVS sub (with TC Sound woofer) and see if it improves anything. If it does, I will upgrade my Tact 2.0S to a Tact Mini, because I can get a sweet deal :green: :green:
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josh,
you may be right - the ht3 may be quite different from normal 3-way speakers. the fact that its 10" driver is in fact a sub driver, & that it's crossed over at a low 250hz, may mean it doesn't warrant the use of a sub. i'd certainly agree this is the case in most rooms. but, my last "real" room was ~26x38x8.5; my present room is ~18x38x8. in larger rooms, there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion. of course, i agree you need quality drivers...
best,
doug s.
With all due respect Doug, making conjecture about how the HT3's would benefit or not with the addition of stereo subs based on your passed experience with entirely different speakers is of little use. I am pretty well certain the speaker you speak of (ones with 10"s) didn't have any where near the quality of woofer driver that the TC sound driver is. The motor structure of a woofer is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will fair when asked to play bass and midbass simultaneously and if ever there were woofers that could go so with aplomb the TC sounds' woofers is among them.
Typically the reason why woofers playing low mucks up the midrange from the same speakers is usually do to distortion and subsequently inductive modulation. The TC sound drivers have shorting rings like well made pro sound woofers and the better hi-fi woofers from Scan speak and a few others. This makes them much less susceptible to such problems then standard woofer drivers. It would be unwise IMO to try to make a guess at how the HT3 would improve with relief of bass material without experiencing it first hand.
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...there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion.
I certainly agree with that!
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Jim, or anyone who has done it,
If one were to add a pair of subs to the HT3's where would a good xo point be to start with?
Would you roll off the TC woofer or just xo the subs?
Marbles, how are you going to integrate your VCS's (VERY cool subs)?
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I hope I didn't "rabbit trail" the thread. The posts by HT3 owners again calmed my fears.
Jim, please finish your replacements, I can think tooooo much, I need to be listening. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment. At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble. Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones. Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range).
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one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o. depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...
ymmv,
doug s.
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which is why i clarified - if you cannot do stereo subs - especially w/speakers that are awreddy full-range - don't bother...
doug s.
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o. depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...
And, as pointed out, with HT3s you essentially do have stereo subs...just not ones that play all the way to 17Hz.
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another reason why you need stereo subs, imo. even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers... i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw...
doug s.
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment. At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble. Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.
I seem to hear of few people who cross to their sub(s) that low, for whatever reason.
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones. Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range).
That's a great point, if you're still crossing really low. But since 50 Hz fundamental's H2 is 100 you can localize that, and many people cross to their subs much higher than that.
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No disagreement here at all. Luckily a Tact Mini can help to add + integrate two additional subs no problem, 3 subs is out of reach...ouch! :lol: :lol:
another reason why you need stereo subs, imo. even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers... i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw...
doug s.
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Another point I forgot to pass along...
someone mentioned "in-room response". This would be about 24Hz with the HT3's.
- Jim
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Wow. A new 4-page thread and I can't think of anything to say. Hmmm--oh yes--HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
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I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.
That must explain why people can't tell that I have a sub sitting beside their chair. I cross over at 80 Hz but the sub has a TC Sounds woofer. It must not have much second and third order distortion!
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I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.
That must explain why people can't tell that I have a sub sitting beside their chair. I cross over at 80 Hz but the sub has a TC Sounds woofer. It must not have much second and third order distortion!
That is true. TC Sounds distortion levels are very low. Most people cannot localize fundamental frequencies under about 150Hz and almost no one can under 100Hz. People often ask if the woofer on the HT3's can be side-mounted. The answer is no because people can localize signals at the top end of the woofer response - about 250Hz.
- Jim
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I was in my brother's store listening to his B&W 802Ds in the "best" room there. There was an 18" Velodyne sub directly to the left of the seating position. On one track that starts with acoustic bass panned hard right, we could not tell that the sub was to the left of us, and this was deliberately trying to listen for it, knowing it was right (left) there. We could feel it vibrating when we touched it, so I knew it was playing.
Sorry but I don't know if the 802s were high-passed or not or the low-pass on the sub.
Anyway, my $0.01.
-Mike
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i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.
The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.
George
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Another point I forgot to pass along...
someone mentioned "in-room response". This would be about 24Hz with the HT3's.
- Jim
That sounds about right! :thumb:
Pretty much what I measured with my HT3's with my TacT gear in a previous life.
One last time, repeat after me:
"I don't need no stinkin' subs" with HT3's
George
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i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.
The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.
George
Having been to George's place when he first got his HT3's awhile back....I did not find them lacking anything in bass...they sounded very good. That was the time we compared his 40's plus the subs to the HT3's.... Jim makes a very good speaker. :thumb:
Chris
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hi george,
curious as to how you tried the vmps' w/the ht3's. did you run an outboard x-over, crossing the ht3's as well as the subs? or run the ht3's full-range? it wouldn't surprise me that the vmps (or any) subs might not work well w/the ht3's (or other full-range speakers), unless the ht3's are also actively crossed over to the subs... while the ht3's may not need subs, it would surprise me that vmps subs couldn't integrate well w/them, if active x-over is used...
thanks,
doug s.
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here. ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers. if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level. the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture. plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs. 8)
i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo. but, i strongly recommend a pair. if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother.
doug s.
I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.
The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.
George
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hi george,
curious as to how you tried the vmps' w/the ht3's. did you run an outboard x-over, crossing the ht3's as well as the subs? or run the ht3's full-range? it wouldn't surprise me that the vmps (or any) subs might not work well w/the ht3's (or other full-range speakers), unless the ht3's are also actively crossed over to the subs... while the ht3's may not need subs, it would surprise me that vmps subs couldn't integrate well w/them, if active x-over is used...
thanks,
doug s.
Doug,
I was actively crossing them over using a TacT 2.2x.
George
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thanks, george, for the update. seems weird to me, but i guess synergy is a strange thing, & it yust proves that one should try before committing to buying... or, at east get as much info as possible, from sites such as this! :wink:
doug s.
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Alrite alrite...
This site has convinced me that I don't need no sub for my HT3, I'm going to save my money to buy new camera lens instead...... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I'm considering buying HT2's and utilizing them with a JL Audio F113 for a second home theatre setup
Arcam AVR350, Pioneer Blu Ray (any suggestions on good and reasonable 5.1 analog interconnects?)
right now the fronts will be B&W Matrix 2's which have some cabinet colorations
I know the HT2's will improve on that
what would you suggest for freq rollover with HT2's?
I have HT3's in my 2 channel room with Moscode 401hr and Dodd battery pre
no need for low bass reinforcement
I have a 50's Kay Upright bass, so I'm very familiar with double bass low - the HT3's can deliver very resolving low end acoustic
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any suggestions on good and reasonable 5.1 analog interconnects?
As far as standard DVD player recommendations, I recommend any good optical cable for digital. I am a believer in good cables in general, but not for optical. I don't have Blue Ray, so I don't know if that would have different issues. Also set the DVD player for "bit stream".
This is a good general recommendation for almost all DVD setups.