AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: smccull on 24 Dec 2018, 02:26 am
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I'm considering going a much simpler route for digital. I play to a lot of vinyl on my Lenco TT and Era V phonostage, and so digital comprises 30-40% of what we typically listen to. My current setup is running Roon on a Synology NAS that connects wirelessly to an Auralic Aries LE, then connected to connected to my Metrum Octave DAC via Curious USB Cable and Audiophillio 2. That's a lot of links in the chain, thus the desire to simplify with a single box solution if I can.
I have really enjoyed what I've heard from MQA so far, even though I'm not getting all the goodness yet. My Aries will decode MQA but my Metrum Octave does not support MQA, so I'm not getting the full monty. I am using ROON DSP to convert streams to 96kHz and 176kHz when possible. 192kHz is not supported on the Octave.
It's my understanding that the Bluesound will provide Full Decoder support for MQA and that the internal DAC punches well above its weight, especially compared to the Node 2. So my question is whether I should expect MQA to sound better on the Bluesound than it does on my current setup, and how much Redbook will sound degraded, if at all.
I'm tempted to buy a Node 2i to compare for myself but before I do, I thought I would garner some opinions here.
Thanks!
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I use a Node in my desktop system for 2 channel. I find the MQA tracks superb. Prior to owning the Node I used a PC streaming to a Parasound ZDAC. The Node has an optical spdif out which I run to my Parasound ZDAC for HIFI tracks that are non MQA.
The difference is the ZDAC has a little more authority with the bass and is a little more open on top on HIFI tracks. If I didn't have the ZDAC already I could live happily with the Node alone but for HIFI tracks the ZDAC is a little more engaging. The Node playing MQA is better than the ZDAC playing HIFI. The ZDAC was about $500 retail and has been compared to $5000 DACS in professional reviews. I would describe it as about 10% better than the Node on redbook/HIFI tracks.
You could run the optical spdif from the Node to your Metrum Octave DAC and make your own comparison. You could leave your DAC in the chain like I did if you want to keep both units and just toggle between the two depending on what you are listening to or just sell it.
I don't use Roon anymore as I prefer the BlueOS software. I have it installed on a Kindle and use it to run the Node but it is Roon Ready if you want to keep your subscription.
https://nadelectronics.com/bluos/
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If you are in shopping mode you may want to check out the "Node on steroids" coming out this month from NAD, which comes with Dirac:
At RMAF 2018, NAD teased their forthcoming C 658 network streamer where company Product Manager Greg Stidsen referred to it as a “[Bluesound] Node 2/i on steroids”. NAD’s press materials are calling it a ‘BluOS DAC’. Price = US$1499.
Like its more affordable cousin, the C 658 adopts the BluOS platform to offer support for up to 20 streaming services and Roon Readiness.
However, with a full-width chassis in play, the NAD eschews the Node 2i’s Burr-Brown DAC chip in favour of an ESS model to add balanced outputs, DSD/MQA support, an MM phono stage, a dedicated headphone amplifier outputting via a 6.4mm socket, two way aptX Bluetooth (send and receive), volume control plus two MDC expansion slots for ‘future formats’ or improved digital and analogue circuitry. Modularity means users don’t have to throw out the baby with the bathwater when updates arrive.
The C658’s biggest drawcard will likely be its internalised Dirac Live room correction capabilities. A bridge to better sound quality for those who can’t afford (or don’t want to look at) room treatments. In this digital pre-amplifier, NAD offers the Lite version with an option to upgrade to the complete Dirac package for US$99.
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/NAD_C658_Data_Sheet.pdf
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I'm considering going a much simpler route for digital. I play to a lot of vinyl on my Lenco TT and Era V phonostage, and so digital comprises 30-40% of what we typically listen to. My current setup is running Roon on a Synology NAS that connects wirelessly to an Auralic Aries LE, then connected to connected to my Metrum Octave DAC via Curious USB Cable and Audiophillio 2. That's a lot of links in the chain, thus the desire to simplify with a single box solution if I can.
I have really enjoyed what I've heard from MQA so far, even though I'm not getting all the goodness yet. My Aries will decode MQA but my Metrum Octave does not support MQA, so I'm not getting the full monty. I am using ROON DSP to convert streams to 96kHz and 176kHz when possible. 192kHz is not supported on the Octave.
It's my understanding that the Bluesound will provide Full Decoder support for MQA and that the internal DAC punches well above its weight, especially compared to the Node 2. So my question is whether I should expect MQA to sound better on the Bluesound than it does on my current setup, and how much Redbook will sound degraded, if at all.
I'm tempted to buy a Node 2i to compare for myself but before I do, I thought I would garner some opinions here.
Thanks!
I'm a 110% with you on simplifying (for the sake of simplifying, not to gain sonics). Based on professional reviews will give you a "smart" answer like 20% loss if overall fidelity to switch to Node 2/i (commercial quality parts, design to satisfy the mid-fi crowd, NAD reputation of warm/pleasing sound, price, points of diminishing returns). Your current gear is quite good, but dated (happens quickly with digital audio). Of course the Node 2/i will age quickly too. A friend loved his Node 2 and 2/i but it was a move from Chromecast Audio, is a mid-fi flipper, and had family use issues (very easy to integrate with remotes and TV). But recently replaced it with a Yamaha A/V receiver that is just as friendly and sounded better to him than Node 2/i plus Parasound or Crown power amps.
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If you are in shopping mode you may want to check out the "Node on steroids" coming out this month from NAD, which comes with Dirac:
At RMAF 2018, NAD teased their forthcoming C 658 network streamer where company Product Manager Greg Stidsen referred to it as a “[Bluesound] Node 2/i on steroids”. NAD’s press materials are calling it a ‘BluOS DAC’. Price = US$1499.
Like its more affordable cousin, the C 658 adopts the BluOS platform to offer support for up to 20 streaming services and Roon Readiness.
However, with a full-width chassis in play, the NAD eschews the Node 2i’s Burr-Brown DAC chip in favour of an ESS model to add balanced outputs, DSD/MQA support, an MM phono stage, a dedicated headphone amplifier outputting via a 6.4mm socket, two way aptX Bluetooth (send and receive), volume control plus two MDC expansion slots for ‘future formats’ or improved digital and analogue circuitry. Modularity means users don’t have to throw out the baby with the bathwater when updates arrive.
The C658’s biggest drawcard will likely be its internalised Dirac Live room correction capabilities. A bridge to better sound quality for those who can’t afford (or don’t want to look at) room treatments. In this digital pre-amplifier, NAD offers the Lite version with an option to upgrade to the complete Dirac package for US$99.
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/NAD_C658_Data_Sheet.pdf
Wow, that news sets me back. As you may know/recall have been shopping for a server to feed my PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DSJ). For less than the price of nice (not top of the line) server I could have a one box solution with Dirac (something I was looking for). Do you know if it could accept music from a USB fed HD (to not lose SQ via my wireless laptop connection)? Oper's question of SQ loss would pop up again, but as a certified computer dummy it's tempting. An odd assortment of specifications listed (preamp RCA/XLR output voltages, DSD formats not listed). As a DSJ owner the idea of future proofing is appealing. Wonder if it fully balanced design? Seems like it would work with my MacBook. Quite a tease indeed.
Note, do disagree that DSP is a suitable substitute for proper room (sort of implied) or treatments. Those steps are very necessary for good sound IMO. Have read about Dirac, hope it's "smart" enough to not try boosting measured frequency dips (that can easily overload amps and therefore destroy drivers).
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If you are in shopping mode you may want to check out the "Node on steroids" coming out this month from NAD, which comes with Dirac:
At RMAF 2018, NAD teased their forthcoming C 658 network streamer where company Product Manager Greg Stidsen referred to it as a “[Bluesound] Node 2/i on steroids”. NAD’s press materials are calling it a ‘BluOS DAC’. Price = US$1499.
Like its more affordable cousin, the C 658 adopts the BluOS platform to offer support for up to 20 streaming services and Roon Readiness.
However, with a full-width chassis in play, the NAD eschews the Node 2i’s Burr-Brown DAC chip in favour of an ESS model to add balanced outputs, DSD/MQA support, an MM phono stage, a dedicated headphone amplifier outputting via a 6.4mm socket, two way aptX Bluetooth (send and receive), volume control plus two MDC expansion slots for ‘future formats’ or improved digital and analogue circuitry. Modularity means users don’t have to throw out the baby with the bathwater when updates arrive.
The C658’s biggest drawcard will likely be its internalised Dirac Live room correction capabilities. A bridge to better sound quality for those who can’t afford (or don’t want to look at) room treatments. In this digital pre-amplifier, NAD offers the Lite version with an option to upgrade to the complete Dirac package for US$99.
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/NAD_C658_Data_Sheet.pdf
Do you know if this can be integrated with a multi-room Bluesound setup, replacing just one of the Node 2s?
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That C658 looks very interesting. I may wait to see that, and other options down the line.
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Wonder if it fully balanced design?
From the C 658 (https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-658-bluos-streaming-dac/) product page:
"The highly flexible outputs allow for a true balanced connection to powered speakers or amplifiers."
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I’d like a version without the preamp....just an affordable higher end dac and streamer combo
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Wow, that news sets me back. As you may know/recall have been shopping for a server to feed my PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DSJ). For less than the price of nice (not top of the line) server I could have a one box solution with Dirac (something I was looking for). Do you know if it could accept music from a USB fed HD (to not lose SQ via my wireless laptop connection)? Oper's question of SQ loss would pop up again, but as a certified computer dummy it's tempting. An odd assortment of specifications listed (preamp RCA/XLR output voltages, DSD formats not listed). As a DSJ owner the idea of future proofing is appealing. Wonder if it fully balanced design? Seems like it would work with my MacBook. Quite a tease indeed.
Note, do disagree that DSP is a suitable substitute for proper room (sort of implied) or treatments. Those steps are very necessary for good sound IMO. Have read about Dirac, hope it's "smart" enough to not try boosting measured frequency dips (that can easily overload amps and therefore destroy drivers).
I noted the USB port on the back and you may want to connect via USB or via DLNA on the network. I have 0 experience with Dirac but have read you can edit the DSP to your liking. I think you can get it with a 30 day return audition at audioadvisor or crutchfield. It looks very tempting and I notice you can add an HDMI card if you want too.
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Do you know if this can be integrated with a multi-room Bluesound setup, replacing just one of the Node 2s?
Yes, you can fit it right in with a multi-room setup. I'll bet the sonics blow away the node but at triple the price it should. I have a node in my desktop system and this is very tempting to add to my HT just for the streamer and MQA functions. The NAD HT processor is $6K and lacks Auro-3D and DTS-X and is "only" 11 channels. If I get this streamer I might have the MQA sonics of the $6K NAD processor but with all the features of my Marantz processor.
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From the C 658 (https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-658-bluos-streaming-dac/) product page:
"The highly flexible outputs allow for a true balanced connection to powered speakers or amplifiers."
Yep, saw that, but if a fully balanced design from start to finish, why say true balanced connection? Don't recall where, but I've seen products that use the same claim that in fact aren't a 100% balanced design (XLR added at the end of the circuit). OTOH with the larger case, big price jump, and use of a 32 bit Hypex DAC chip it may very well be fully balanced. But no DSD, wonder why?
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Yep, saw that, but if a fully balanced design from start to finish, why say true balanced connection? Don't recall where, but I've seen products that use the same claim that in fact aren't a 100% balanced design (XLR added at the end of the circuit). OTOH with the larger case, big price jump, and use of a 32 bit Hypex DAC chip it may very well be fully balanced. But no DSD, wonder why?
check again, dsd is listed on the spec sheet:
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/NAD_C658_Data_Sheet.pdf
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I actually just tried the NAD C658 in my system (my current source is a Node 2 into a LTA MZ2 pre and Meridian G57 amp). I didn't like it myself. First, the Dirac room correction is not yet available on this unit for some reason (I was surprised) and I could not get a definitive answer on when it would be. I found the presentation pleasant but very polite and not nearly as resolving of detail as my current system. Maybe more importantly, I found the Node2 directly into my amp was better to my ears by quite a margin. I did note that the C658 throws a very large soundstage which I did like.
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I actually just tried the NAD C658 in my system (my current source is a Node 2 into a LTA MZ2 pre and Meridian G57 amp). I didn't like it myself. First, the Dirac room correction is not yet available on this unit for some reason (I was surprised) and I could not get a definitive answer on when it would be. I found the presentation pleasant but very polite and not nearly as resolving of detail as my current system. Maybe more importantly, I found the Node2 directly into my amp was better to my ears by quite a margin. I did note that the C658 throws a very large soundstage which I did like.
Thanks for posting itball, good to get an apples to apples comparison without Dirac engaged. I would not be using the Dirac feature as an audyssey user so very helpful. Did you return the unit?
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What Hi-Fi rated the new 2i as 5 star SQ and downrated the 2 as 3 star. I am ordering one next week. I wondered how it would sound going direct into a amp. One less cable and preamp to worry about.
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I have ordered a Node 2i myself as I have read great things about the sound quality of the new unit. If I can rid myself of a preamp, that would be great (with the original Node 2, I feel the sound is better with the preamp in place). Will post my impressions later in the week.
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I use to be influenced by the hi-fi magazines and audio forums. What is hi-fi equipment? Which piece is mid-fi? Which is hi-fi? Spend a lot of money get better sound?? Does that piece measure well? Huh? It really is folly. Then I went with the toe tapping philosophy. If the equipment gets my toe to tap, involves me emotionally into the music, then I consider it true
and satisfying audio. I have a Bluesound Node 2 and can say it fits the bill.... for me.
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Ive got both a 2 and a 2i. I am using an external DAC better than what's in the Bluesound. I can hear no difference between them. So if you plan on using a good external DAC save yourself some money and just go with the 2 not the 2i.
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I thought the only upgrade on the 2i was a new dual band wifi chip instead of the single band in the original unit.
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No, it supposedly has a whole new circuit card layout for improvements with shorter traces and better isolation of analog vs. digital sections etc.
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What Hi-Fi review
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/bluesound-generation-2i
A lot of 2's are selling on Ebay for less than $300.
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I have ordered a Node 2i myself as I have read great things about the sound quality of the new unit. If I can rid myself of a preamp, that would be great (with the original Node 2, I feel the sound is better with the preamp in place). Will post my impressions later in the week.
So I received the Node 2i and have tried it direct into my amp and attached to my preamp. My ears can't detect any meaningful difference in sound vs the Node 2. Maybe I kind of thought perhaps I heard some increased detail but given I don't have an A/B switch it means several minutes pass before I can hear the same piece of music on the other unit at the same volume level. Either way, I still like my system better with the preamp in place and am happy to have the new features on the 2i, esp the new wifi given I had occasional issues with that in my house. Will keep the Node 2 around for duty in another system I am playing around with.
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Thanks for your impressions, itball. Great to have a direct comparison. I really love my Node 2.
Cheers,
Scott
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I actually just tried the NAD C658 in my system (my current source is a Node 2 into a LTA MZ2 pre and Meridian G57 amp). I didn't like it myself. First, the Dirac room correction is not yet available on this unit for some reason (I was surprised) and I could not get a definitive answer on when it would be. I found the presentation pleasant but very polite and not nearly as resolving of detail as my current system. Maybe more importantly, I found the Node2 directly into my amp was better to my ears by quite a margin. I did note that the C658 throws a very large soundstage which I did like.
Wonder if break-in was a factor. My PS Audio DirectStream Junior took hundreds of hours to fully bloom as many others attest to. Can't imagine the "Node on steroids" sounding worse than the Node.
BTW had a brief taste of full MQA via Tidal (what else?) recently. No benefit for a couple of older recordings (how you gonna squeeze more out of lower fidelity master tapes?), but a newer release was more detailed especially on mid/treble frequencies. Unfortunately most of what I listen to is older or not available on MQA/Tidal.
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Wonder if break-in was a factor. My PS Audio DirectStream Junior took hundreds of hours to fully bloom as many others attest to. Can't imagine the "Node on steroids" sounding worse than the Node.
BTW had a brief taste of full MQA via Tidal (what else?) recently. No benefit for a couple of older recordings (how you gonna squeeze more out of lower fidelity master tapes?), but a newer release was more detailed especially on mid/treble frequencies. Unfortunately most of what I listen to is older or not available on MQA/Tidal.
Try some of the Masters Playlists like the Motown one :thumb:
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So I received the Node 2i and have tried it direct into my amp and attached to my preamp. My ears can't detect any meaningful difference in sound vs the Node 2. Maybe I kind of thought perhaps I heard some increased detail but given I don't have an A/B switch it means several minutes pass before I can hear the same piece of music on the other unit at the same volume level. Either way, I still like my system better with the preamp in place and am happy to have the new features on the 2i, esp the new wifi given I had occasional issues with that in my house. Will keep the Node 2 around for duty in another system I am playing around with.
After a few hundred hours of break-in, try bypassing your preamp. Like JLM, I have found all DAC's take a few hundred hours to break-in. Also compare the 2i vs. the 2. The 2i will propbably sound bretter.