[-Richard-]

The audiocircle OB community forum is a wonderful resource for OB ideas, actual DIY designs and sage feedback. This is not about that very practical, often exciting and much needed information.

Instead, I wanted to briefly share my recent experience with my own OB's... a 2 way-design using the modified Dayton 8" Neo Point-Source drivers that Scorpio/Erling helped to "tame" of its upper frequency "heat" by having me insert a cheap inductor and resistor in the speaker cable.

Although Erling's modification has worked quite wonderfully on almost every kind of music I played on my OB's... I was not satisfied with how string instruments sounded. There was a sense of opaqueness that deprived the strings of their special transparent sound.

For the last few weeks Deborah and I have been attending the master classes of the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara. The rooms where the master-classes for visiting students are held resemble modest 17 century rooms in scale... they are perfect for listening to quartets and quintets so that every nuance of the violin, viola and cello can be heard in all of their sonic beauty and textural resonance. In fact that goes for every classical instrument as well.

Coming home and playing small scale string ensemble compositions on my OB's was disappointing.

I began to research the early designs of British speaker designer Peter Walker, who designed and built the Quad electrostatic speakers. I became convinced that these were the speakers that could reproduce the air and transparency that would allow small scale classical string ensembles to resolve at close to how they really sound. It was the idea of a very large virtually mass-less vibrating point-source that intrigued me... and the over-the-top descriptions of Quad users and professional reviewers.

I read a great deal and talked to several people who refurbish the older designs. What I discovered was that the Quad 57, the original Quad... was not what Peter Walker had in mind when he first designed these revolutionary speakers... his application for a patent actually shows the second iteration, where he used a concentric time-delay circuit that releases the sonic wave in a circular radiating pattern that spans out from a center... like waves traveling when a stone is dropped into water.

The original 57 has a severely narrow sweet spot that was compared to giant earphones, and extremely transparent mid-range with little going on at either end of the frequency spectrum. The 63 was Walker's second iteration released in 1985... he was finally able to produce the concentric wave-form to simulate a point-source. There is a loss of the same level of transparency in the mid-range that the 57 had, but it has good all-over frequency response and they play louder. However there is no real bass... many 63 Quad lovers use subwoofers, or do not listen to bass demanding music, or just accept their playing range.

There are serious problems with these designs functionally. The circuits are extremely complicated compared to our much simpler Open Baffle paradigm that uses pistonic dynamic speakers, sometimes alone, more often hooked up to each other, sometimes with crossovers, sometimes using separate amplification with its own cross-over control. So the Quad electrostatic speakers are prone to failure... the panels fail over time... anytime actually... and after 10 years of playing they should be replaced in any case as they weaken. There are problems with the way the sandwich of the mylar and other materials are glued to the frames they are stretched to... the glue dries and weakens. There is always the possibility of arcing... a lightening bolt traveling between the stators burning up the speakers... or there method of preventing arcing by shorting-out the electrical signal coming from the amplifier resulting in a possible burning up of the amplifier.

The newer Quad electrostatic speakers were described to me by several really knowledgeable people as "junk"... plastic parts, poor materials in the circuits, panels that break-down within months... or even weeks... entirely undependable since the Chinese took over the production... and that goes for the earlier 988 and 989 as well, when Quad of England dropped all production and let the Chinese take over.

I have listened to Quads over the years and never liked what I heard... it seems that the audio dealers just did not know how to set them up. Still, I thought this may be the only way to achieve the transparency I was looking for. This would have required spending around $3000 dollars for a refurbished pair of 63's. I did my research, but I hesitated to purchase a pair of very old fragile speakers that have a history of unreliability and break-downs... besides they were out of my budget... and I remained suspended in that limbo.

A few days ago I thought to hook Deborah's Macbook Pro computer to my Heathkit to once again hear if the full-bit ripped music files playing itunes could perhaps get me a little closer to the transparency I was looking for. The sound was dull compared to what my cheap older Pioneer universal CD player delivers. No transparency there. I began to think about researching the latest generation of DAC's, while I also began to research alternative amplifiers. Perhaps it was not my Open Baffle speakers that was at fault. Perhaps it was the amplifier or CD player that was the problem here. I also began to research speaker cables and interconnects.

When I hooked up the Macbook Pro I needed a cable to go from it to my Heathkit and found it under the couch near the speakers where I usually park my unused cables. When I returned the cable back to its home under the couch, I saw a pair of interconnects that I once used many years ago for an entirely different set-up and thought, why not try it out on my current OB system.

I took out the pair of interconnects that I had been using and put this inexpensive pair in and fired up my amp. Suddenly the transparency I was looking for was there... and much much more. What Deborah and I heard froze us to where we were standing. Not only was the transparency there, but everything else was there as well... incredible focus of voices and instruments... and a harmonic truth that allowed instruments to leap to life before our ears. Also the sense of a huge musical space... even the sense of pure space, the space where the recording was made... spread out to encompass our entire room in a deeply saturated yet transparent sonic presence.

Plucked strings could now be felt... yes... I mean felt... viscerally, in the stomach... drums could be felt to smack the body, the ears. This we had never experienced with our OB's before... this intense focus of sound that created pin-point harmonic integrity to voices and instruments.

But most important for me, the sought after transparency that allows stringed instruments to sound not only real but also to resolve the delicate upper frequency bowed notes without any bite or artificial plastic or metallic sound. That and the huge sense of space and the utterly convincing harmonic integrity and focus has ended the need to look any further. What I was seeking was under my couch all of the time.

How could a not-very-expensive interconnect change the sonic picture of my OB's with such a radical transformation?

I am sharing this experience with our audiocircle community, to encourage anyone who feels that there OB's are missing something, to try another cable or interconnect before changing out more expensive ancillary gear... or seeking another speaker paradigm altogether, looking for that missing 'something'. I would never have dreamed this level of realism was possible with my OB's.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[this_is_vv]

Nice post richard,

i ahve just made my first open baffle and i was listening for like 7 hours and many times word that came out of my mouth was "WOW".."WOW"...

i have an eminence 15 alha and a tang band 25$ pair full range...

apart that i never knew the cable part after reading so many things about cable and interconnects i am just buying form monoprice and keeping it simple...

but somneday i would liek to know buy this and u wont be disappointed...


V

[Poultrygeist]

Richard,

So what are the interconnects you liked so much?

[rollo]

Richard nice write up. The affect you described " like waves traveling when a stone is dropped into water" is basicaly what we hear in live music. A mono source in spades.
   Stereo reproduction fools the mind with its illusion of soundstaging and imaging. however in real life no such animal. A monolithic source with dimension and openess is what we get.
   Maybe it is time to go back to three channels or find another way get closer to the real deal.
   

charles
   
   
   

[BobRex]

Richard nice write up. The affect you described " like waves traveling when a stone is dropped into water" is basicaly what we hear in live music. A mono source in spades.
   Stereo reproduction fools the mind with its illusion of soundstaging and imaging. however in real life no such animal. A monolithic source with dimension and openess is what we get.
   Maybe it is time to go back to three channels or find another way get closer to the real deal.

May be the case with amplified music, but the last time I was at the Philly Orchestra (a few weeks ago for the Stokie celebration) I percieved depth and specific image placement.  No monolithic source from where I was sitting.

[-Richard-]

Hi Poultrygeist ~ I looked at the interconnects and the name on them is Signal Cable... here is there website:  http://www.signalcable.com/

I purchased these at least 8 years ago... so I have no idea if these interconnects reflects the current offerings from this very inexpensive company in New York... the look-a-like blue pair they now sell goes for $49 (the Analog 2). However, I don't think these interconnects have any particular magic about them... honestly. I certainly don't remember them being particularly effective in the last set-up I used them for. I suspect that it is an accident that they work as well as they do.

The only point I was trying to make is that sometimes, it seems, cables and interconnects can give a new life to our Open Baffle systems... it can shift the sonic characteristics enough to present a more realistic spatial and transparent bloom to the music. Now I realize that the potential is there... finding the right "wire" can perhaps release it more effectively.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[-Richard-]

Hi rollo/Charles ~ What strikes me most emphatically about the current state of "commercial" audio, after researching the history and innovation of the Quad electrostatic speakers, is how little experimentation and innovation is being conducted... it is the same designs being rehashed ad nauseum. Where is the Peter Walker of this generation? Why doesn't audio reflect the same lust for experimentation as other areas of 'technology'?

One only has to begin researching box speakers, for example, to realize that they all look almost exactly alike... what is the difference that we are supposed to imagine is really there between the hundreds of speaker manufacturers offering the same exact thing in a slightly different dress or pair of pants?

A 'three way' is still essentially the same paradigm only with one more of the same thing added... I want to see something 'new'... an innovation that moves us beyond the current cookie-cutter speaker-in-a-box solution.

I have now become extremely aware of how 'transparency' renders a much more realistic reproduction of un-amplified instruments... this is the direction my own research will take me from now on.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[ebag4]

Hi Richard,
I always enjoy reading your well written posts.  Although slightly OT for this thread, I was hoping you might give a little more detail on the modifications you mentioned in the quote below:

... a 2 way-design using the modified Dayton 8" Neo Point-Source drivers that Scorpio/Erling helped to "tame" of its upper frequency "heat" by having me insert a cheap inductor and resistor in the speaker cable.

I am currently itching for another speaker project and have been looking at fullrange drivers for OB, specifically the Dayton you have and the Tang Band W8-1808.  Of course the Dayton has the allure of costing almost half of the what the Tang Band does.

I searched but did not find any other mention of this mod.

Thanks,
Ed

[-Richard-]

 Hi ebag4/Ed ~

Please click on my previous post: Scorpion/Erling tames my Dayton 8" wide-range drivers with a BSC

It is about 20 posts down on the first page list.

Here is the first paragraph of that post:

   "I think I would start with a 12 ohm resistor and a 0.4 mH aircoil. Such an arrangement will gradually lower frequency response from 1 kHz to about 5 kHz. The effect will be like - 1 dB at 1 kHz and - 6 dB at 5 kHz it will then flatten out and sink the rest of the frequencies from 5 kHz and upwards with about - 7 dB. I think that will fit the actual Dayton response quite well and probably kill the heat. At least it will not cost a fortune to test. If the effect is considered too small complementing the coil with another 0.4 mH unit in series could be a further step.
I think all considered 12 ohm - 0.4 mH combo is preferred to my earlier calculation."

I have heard quite a few really nice things about the Tang Bang W8-1808. In my minds eye I can easily imagine it is quite a bit more refined sounding than the Dayton... of course I don't know that... but it may not need any "correction" to resolve the upper frequencies. If that is true, that would be a very strong reason to go with it. I have not seen a frequency curve chart of its performance... that might be a good place to get a handle on its possible performance in an OB.

The Dayton's are now sounding quite nice with the Alpha bass driver... this level of transparency is almost unheard of in any pistonic box speaker design I have ever heard. Quite unexpected really. But there is still room to get that quality of transparency a little bit better and I am looking into that now. I will report back if I can put together alternative components that bring that about... without losing the intense dynamics that I now hear. If one rarely listens to small string chamber music then that is not even an issue... 'transparency' only really becomes an issue when one is seriously interested in capturing the sound and textural feel of a live un-amplified performance of small string ensembles.

"Although slightly OT for this thread..." I wanted to share my research into the possibility of considering the purchase of an 'original' refurbished Quad 63 with the OB community. It is one of the original di-pole speakers to establish a new paradigm in listening pleasure that solved some very interesting sonic issues that boxed speakers are still trying to replicate... especially in the area of transparency. If one reads some of the more recent threads on the OB forum it is becoming clear that some of the earlier adopters of the simple Visaton B200 + bass driver are now looking to consider other speaker designs. Having lived with their OB's they are getting restless to move on.

I thought that some of us may have considered the Quad 57 or 63 as a viable alternative. I am still very interested in seeing if it is possible to render a even more transparent sonic picture... even though what I am hearing now is quite extraordinary for a pistonic driver set-up.

I was seriously considering a pair of Supravox field-coil drivers. The 'North American' 'dealer', who is up in Canada proved to be frustratingly illusive... back and forth, back and forth with emails... and difficulties in connecting on the phone finally made me give up... they are close to $3000 with shipping from Canada to Ojai, California.

I also looked into the stunning new Voxative drivers: http://www.voxativ.com/eng/
They have an 'inexpensive' one that the German designer really likes... incidentally the designer is a very attractive lady!!! and she is very nice and returns emails!!! But even a pair of their relatively inexpensive drivers are around $2500.

Someone I read recently cut out the whizzer from their Tang Bang... you might consider researching that modification to read what benefits it had... if any.

So a completely refurbished pair of Quad 63's coming in at less than $3000 is in the same ball park as the Supravox and Voxative drivers.

I love the idea of an extremely sensitive 8" driver like the Supravox field-coils or the Voxative (close to 98db!!)... because it means being able to use a modest SET tube amplifier... like a 300B... or even perhaps a 2A3!

I am still considering using a 300B for my current set-up with the Dayton.

Best of luck to you Ed... and please do keep in touch and let us know how things unfold for you.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[jimdgoulding]

I once used short runs of Signal cable between my Kenwood L07 monoblocks and Acoustat Threes.  I don't remember what they replaced but I never looked back. 

[ebag4]

Richard, thank you for the reply.  Next time I will scan the forum and not simply do a search.

I took a look at the Voxativ site you linked to, very nice drivers indeed.  A little pricey but very nice.

Best,
Ed

[embty2002]

Nice post richard,

i ahve just made my first open baffle and i was listening for like 7 hours and many times word that came out of my mouth was "WOW".."WOW"...

i have an eminence 15 alha and a tang band 25$ pair full range...

apart that i never knew the cable part after reading so many things about cable and interconnects i am just buying form monoprice and keeping it simple...

but somneday i would liek to know buy this and u wont be disappointed...


V

Hello from Italy, this is my first post.
i have a pair of alpha15 and audionirvana super 8.
my super8 not working so well in my 70x113 cm panel. i would change them.
what is your tang band fullrange drive, please?
what is your cutting frequency, please?
hello

[this_is_vv]

Hello from Italy, this is my first post.
i have a pair of alpha15 and audionirvana super 8.
my super8 not working so well in my 70x113 cm panel. i would change them.
what is your tang band fullrange drive, please?
what is your cutting frequency, please?
hello

I am using tang band w-655S here is the graph...my eminence is cut off at 180hz and below and tang badn take it form there... i have now added Neo3 on top of it....

http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-655sh.htm


V