DAC for horns

daledeee · « **on:** 20 Jan 2020, 02:33 am »

Hello, I have made strides, I have a streamer....I bought a Chinese one first and now have a Bluesound Node 2i. Although it gets generally good reviews, the opinions on the DAC vary greatly. So I looked on Audiogon and ebay. Too many brands. I have never owned a DAC and don't have any stores to listen. I have Klipsch DIY speakers that sound quite good but am wondering what I would get with a separate DAC I feel a discussion about the proper match with the horns would help. I don't want to spend over $1K. Less is better. I realize opinions are all over the place but it would give me somewhere to start. PS, I am not using a preamp and have a Class A Schiit Aegir which works well with the horn speakers. Thank you for the help. Is it the Border patrol that has a tube and would that help? Might be over the $$ amount. Here I go again.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 05:25 am »

I would look for a used Chord 2Qute or Qutest. DAC's can sound dramatically different and are clearly system dependent. I have had several high end and budget DAC's in my system for shootouts and I have owned several. They all sounded significantly different.

Since you have Schiit gear you may want to try the new Bifrost Multibit with the Unison USB.

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 12:36 pm »

The overall sound of a system is a function first from speakers, then the room, then the pre/power amp, then DAC, then source in a digital system.

In today's market and with today's quickly advancing technology there is no reason to buy old DAC (more than two years past release) or spend more than $500 unless you're chasing the absolute best sound. Sabaj D5 ($470 from Amazon) uses the latest DAC chip and offers all the flexibility you'd need, even has a volume control. Precious little need to spend more.

You've got a good amp. Spend the rest improving your room.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 12:54 pm »

The Node can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

My impression is that there is room for improvement.

My opinion is that a DAC should be as neutral as possible, you want to hear the recording, not the DAC.
Likewise there ain't such thing as matching DAC with a horn.
A good neutral one with a plethora of DSP options: RME ADI-2 DAC

Rusty Jefferson · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 01:52 pm »

I'll differ with some of the above opinions. As I mentioned in your thread about tube amps:

Quote from: Rusty Jefferson on 3 Jan 2020, 07:22 pm

If the OP is happy with his Class A (presumably) SS amp, it's possible he'd get the smoothness he's after and not loose bandwidth and woofer control switching to a high output impedance SET amplifier, by inserting a Lampizator tube dac as a source. I've heard a couple horn based systems transformed by the addition of a Lampi.

Klipsch horns and Altecs were developed in a time of tube amps and analogue sources. They are going to sound their most natural and less fatiguing if paired with quality tube amps and or a quality tube source, imo.

I'm wasn't talking about the $20k latest model Lampizator here, but a used Level 4, 5, or 6. You won't get one for $1k, but maybe $2‐$3k. Dropping $1k on a new dac is not going to give you the magic you're looking for with those Klipsch horns, imho. The Lampizator guys have a circle here. Maybe they know of a trade in, or one slipped under a bed somewhere looking for a new home.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 02:31 pm »

If you like the BlueSound operating system, want to avoid involving computers, and want a step up from the Node 2i, suggest looking at the NAD C658. Sorry it's beyond your budget, but described as a Node 2i on steroids and looks like a regular audio component. It's well respected plus comes with <500 Hz version of Dirac Live (room correction software with microphone). But I'd only use DSP with a good room that has been treated.

If involving computer hardware/software is OK and you want some room correction, look into DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core ($900 street price). It's pleasant sounding, small (tight fit for connectors), has limited inputs, a tiny screen, credit card type remote, microphone, and also limited to lower frequency room corrections (experts recommend limiting DSP to that anyway).

Have owned the DSPeaker and currently own the C658's big brother (M10 that has a power amp built in). Have owned a tube buffered DAC. It worked with or without the tube. Even bought the recommended boutique tube. Sounded the same with either tube or without a tube at all. IMO a strange mix of modern with ancient technologies. It was a flash in the pan darling. A friend had it wildly modded and still didn't sound wonderful. If you want to try adding tube sound suggest inserting a simple tube buffer upstream of the power amp.

Agree that Klipsch have traditionally been voiced for use with tube gear. Don't know your speakers. The downfall of (efficient, but constipated bass) classic Klipsch speakers was the advent of solid state (that are more powerful, sound best at those high power levels, and has tight bass compared to traditional tube amps).

Looked at the RME ADI-2, a very nice piece, but doesn't stream so still requires a computer with software, user interface requires lots of drilling through menus (very German), and it's DSP is limited to 5 adjustments with no provision to measure (making it all but useless by itself).

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 02:39 pm »

Quote

doesn't stream so still requires a computer

As I understand the OP, he is looking for a DAC to attach to the Node.

If he is looking for a streamer with a better DAC this might be an affordable alternative:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/matrix-audio-element-i-usb-dac-streamer.10360/

Mike B. · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 04:53 pm »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on 20 Jan 2020, 12:54 pm

The Node can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

My impression is that there is room for improvement.

My opinion is that a DAC should be as neutral as possible, you want to hear the recording, not the DAC.
Likewise there ain't such thing as matching DAC with a horn.
A good neutral one with a plethora of DSP options: RME ADI-2 DAC

I don't know how significant these results are? I tired the OPPO Sonica DAC. This is the same DAC except two channel as the 205 which is his top rated unit. I was disappointed in the sound quality. Power supply isolation, analog section, or the overall package of parts is what determines the final results.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 07:53 pm »

IMHO these measurements tells you how well the DA conversion is done.
If you see no jitter, you won’t hear it either
If linearity is up to bit 24, it is able to convert any 24 bit recording accurately
If the IMD is low (the multitone test) is will be low when playing music,
etc.
If these measurements are not ‘right’ the DAC cannot reproduce the source properly.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 10:41 pm »

I don't buy all the talk about no reason to buy a DAC over $1K. I haven't heard a DAC under $1K that sounds better (more depth, texture, tone, detail, air, transparency and sound stage better than the DAC's that I have heard or had in my system.

I have had the Exogal Comet, Chord Hugo, PSA Direct stream, my current Luxman DA-06, Marantz NA11s1, Cary TS200 and have heard an Exasound, T+A DAC8 ( a truly awesome DAC), AVA Hybrid Tube DAC, Lampizator Lite, Bryston, W4S DSDse with femto upgrade, Bricasti M1 to name a few.

Now if the rest of your system is not up to snuff including usb cable you may not hear dramatic differences.

Keep buying sub $1K DAC's and be stuck in mediocrity. Good to very good sound but not great. My system with a BAT VK51se preamp, Pass Labs X250 amp will show you the weaknesses on any DAC.

Mike B. · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 11:29 pm »

Quote from: I.Greyhound Fan on 20 Jan 2020, 10:41 pm

I don't buy all the talk about no reason to buy a DAC over $1K. I haven't heard a DAC under $1K that sounds better (more depth, texture, tone, detail, air, transparency and sound stage better than the DAC's that I have heard or had in my system.

I have had the Exogal Comet, Chord Hugo, PSA Direct stream, my current Luxman DA-06, Marantz NA11s1, Cary TS200 and have heard an Exasound, T+A DAC8 ( a truly awesome DAC), AVA Hybrid Tube DAC, Lampizator Lite, Bryston, W4S DSDse with femto upgrade, Bricasti M1 to name a few.

Now if the rest of your system is not up to snuff including usb cable you may not hear dramatic differences.

Keep buying sub $1K DAC's and be stuck in mediocrity. Good to very good sound but not great. My system with a BAT VK51se preamp, Pass Labs X250 amp will show you the weaknesses on any DAC.

That is my experience as well. In most cases you get what you pay for. My current one is a W4S 2V2 SE.

MttBsh · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Jan 2020, 11:49 pm »

Quote from: Mike B. on 20 Jan 2020, 11:29 pm

That is my experience as well. In most cases you get what you pay for. My current one is a W4S 2V2 SE.

One can occasionally find an inexpensive giant killer component, but I too agree that, in general, for top quality sound you have to lay out some cash. Speaking of DACs I'd be surprised if any anything made today that costs less than a grand could displace the Yggdrasil I've been using for coming up on five years. Once you've heard the good stuff it's hard to settle for less.

daledeee · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Jan 2020, 01:52 am »

One can keep climbing up that price ladder, but there is a reason some of us don't buy $5K or more components. I saw a used RME for 470. The Sabaj seems to be a love/hate. The Sabaj seems to have a really new chip and I think it is a strong candidate. A Border Patrol is generally well received but it is REALLY unique and old school. On and on. The Schiit stuff is well received and good people to work with. I had no idea how complicated this whole D to A thing is. However, I went from no music to where I am since October and it is fun. As with the tube amp post, I am in no hurry to keep going, just gathering info and opinions. Thanks for the input.

viggen · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Feb 2020, 07:34 pm »

i have altec 601c which has horn tweeters. i have good experience with either topping d50s and d90. i use a se tube amp.

Triode Pete · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Feb 2020, 08:32 pm »

Quote from: daledeee on 20 Jan 2020, 02:33 am

Hello, I have made strides, I have a streamer....I bought a Chinese one first and now have a Bluesound Node 2i. Although it gets generally good reviews, the opinions on the DAC vary greatly. So I looked on Audiogon and ebay. Too many brands. I have never owned a DAC and don't have any stores to listen. I have Klipsch DIY speakers that sound quite good but am wondering what I would get with a separate DAC I feel a discussion about the proper match with the horns would help. I don't want to spend over $1K. Less is better. I realize opinions are all over the place but it would give me somewhere to start. PS, I am not using a preamp and have a Class A Schiit Aegir which works well with the horn speakers. Thank you for the help. Is it the Border patrol that has a tube and would that help? Might be over the $$ amount. Here I go again.

Get the BorderPatrol DAC! You won't regret it... Come hear the BorderPatrol DAC this weekend at the Florida Audio Expo, Room 403, with the Volti horn loudspeakers!

My $0.02,
Pete

PS - Gary at BorderPatrol still hand fabricates his S version DAC at $995 which is within your budget.

viggen · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Feb 2020, 09:24 pm »

i've been curious about border patrol for a long time but always miss it when it comes up in the classifieds... that being said i think amp/dac synergy is more important than just dac. based on specs, i never thought a topping dac would sound good with horn speakers but, with the right amp, it's making my 601c sing beautifully. i had the metrum amethyst that is probably very close to the bp dac sound characteristically wise but it with the right amp did not make the 601c sing as does my current amp and the topping does.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Feb 2020, 10:22 pm »

Quote from: viggen on 5 Feb 2020, 09:24 pm

I think amp/dac synergy is more important than just dac.

BINGO!

Early B. · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Feb 2020, 01:27 am »

Quote from: viggen on 5 Feb 2020, 09:24 pm

amp/dac synergy

What is, "amp/dac synergy?" Why the amp and not the preamp/dac or the source/dac or the speakers/dac?

ketcham · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Feb 2020, 08:05 am »

I anticipate a 100 people reply with almost as many opinions, so I will add mine

I believe old dacs can be very musical and quite wonderful. An old Museatex Bidat that still can be updated by EMM then engineer Jon Wright. It best many dacs I purchased to follow for significantly more.

Digital Audio Converters depreciate the most rapidly of any component on the market today. Yes, the technology is rapidly evolving but well-implemented dacs of yesteryear hold their own to dacs of today.

www.hifishark.com is an excellent resource. Purchasing overseas or from some of the friendliest audiophiles just north and importing your market up nicely too. Just be vigilant about rated power supplies. Most dacs have an internal switch.

stwombly · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Feb 2020, 08:24 am »

I have Volti horns and the Border Patrol DAC. I also have the Mytek Brooklyn. The Border Patrol is better than the Mytek. I highly recommend the Border Patrol. And Gary at Border Patrol is great to work with.