AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Headphone Mania => Topic started by: AliG on 8 Nov 2013, 07:05 pm
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Folks,
I am not here to stir up controversy. I am greatly dumbfound by the way many headphone fans described the 'soundstage' they are hearing through their headphones. I have been a two-channel speaker guy since 2005 and when I listened to a speaker setup, I can appreciate what people meant by 3-dimensional soundstage. But recently when I listened to all the headphone systems at a local audio show, I just don't hear the same 3D soundstage that I used to hear on speakers. I couldn't even feel that there was a centred image!? Unlike in speaker set up, not only you can hear centred image, you can also tell how big that image is, how defined the shape of the image is. With headphones, I heard sound very close to my ear and that's really about it. Could it be that I have hearing problem??
Reason I am asking this is, I am at a decision point, I am not sure if I should pour more money into headphone systems. I already have a Beyerdynamics T1+W4S DAC1+ WooAudio WA2. I am thinking if I should build another headphone system based on STAX SR-009, this system may cost around $15k or so. Would you rather buy a pair of good speakers with this budget?? :shh:
At the end of the day, is there anyone here that can tell me they are hearing exactly the same kind of 3D image on headphone vs speakers?
Thank you and have a nice day! :beer:
Barry
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Heck no, it's not the same presentation at all...there's no way headphones could ever do what my Magnepans can...at least not to my ears.
Doesn't mean I don't love headphones, though, cause I do. But I see them as two different types of reproduction, and I prefer each for different purposes.
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Well said Ajzepp. Headphones are very personal. The soundstage I get from my headphones is very different from the soundstage I get from my Axioms. I now live in an apartment (thank you hurricane Sandy) so headphones come into play for me. Soundstage is apples or oranges. It's the same thing only different. :icon_lol:
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I think crossfeed is the only way to approximate any "soundstage" as it is experienced via 2 channel.
I long for a good Meier Corda unit with that capability, for air travel time, but won't part with the $!
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A properly designed crossfeed circuit is an amazing application...I totally agree. It's designed to reduce or eliminate listener fatigue and it does exactly that. A much better approximation of the way we naturally experience sound/music.
I was talking with Jan Meier about it a while back, and I asked him if he'd ever considered a stand alone crossfeed unit, sort of like an in-line buffer of sorts. Turns out that a few years ago he DID have such a product. Both he and another popular headphone site...I think it was headroom.com...were promoting the advantages of crossfeed, but it never really became popular.
I couldn't be without it, personally. It's taken my headphone listening to a whole other level.
Milford: I forgot you got hit my Sandy....I can't imagine how horrible that must have been!
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I have heard the Stax-009 and they are amazing. But the only time I have heard music live outside of the head during headphone listening is with binaural recordings. The techniques used when recording music for playback on headphones makes a big difference in my opinion.
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The only headphones that I've heard which are close to what you can expect with speakers are my ungodly fugly Stax Sigmas.
The best advice I can give you is to avoid mirrors when you're wearing them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89661)
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LMFAO :lol:
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A properly designed crossfeed circuit is an amazing application...I totally agree. It's designed to reduce or eliminate listener fatigue and it does exactly that. A much better approximation of the way we naturally experience sound/music.
Agree 150%. I use software crossfeed on my computer based system which allows much more precise control over the effect than hardware based analog crossfeed. The app I use on my Mac is available as an AU (or VST) plug-in and is called Canz3D. The Fidelia player has a good (although subtle) crossfeed add-on. These make a big difference in listenability, realism, and lack of fatigue..
BTW, to follow up on what tf121682 said, for depiction of spatiality, nothing, and I mean nothing, can touch a well made binaural recording on a good set of cans. It spanks the best 7.1 system you have ever heard... easily. Search for 'binaural matches' or 'binaural haircut', or 'binaural' on Wikipedia; there are samples available. When you hear the matchbox being shaken in a circle around and then over the top of your head... Well, there is no surround sound speaker setup that can do that at any price. The downside? A near total dearth of source material.
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A properly designed crossfeed circuit is an amazing application...I totally agree. It's designed to reduce or eliminate listener fatigue and it does exactly that. A much better approximation of the way we naturally experience sound/music.
To me crossfeed is the worse thing that can happen to sound,first it ruins stereo since it
is crosstalk,not only that by crossfeed mono isnt mono ,you need to look how crossfeed
works, as for listener fatigue all headphones contribute to that...
Hope that helps... :green:
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To me crossfeed is the worse thing that can happen to sound,first it ruins stereo since it
is crosstalk,not only that by crossfeed mono isnt mono ,you need to look how crossfeed
works, as for listener fatigue all headphones contribute to that...
Hope that helps... :green:
Not looking for any help, but thanks :) My experience is the exact opposite of what you described.
There are different ways that a crossfeed circuit is implemented. The way the Meier circuit operates performs beautifully.
Sounds like db Cooper is getting excellent results via his Mac, as well.
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Agree 150%. I use software crossfeed on my computer based system which allows much more precise control over the effect than hardware based analog crossfeed. The app I use on my Mac is available as an AU (or VST) plug-in and is called Canz3D. The Fidelia player has a good (although subtle) crossfeed add-on. These make a big difference in listenability, realism, and lack of fatigue..
BTW, to follow up on what tf121682 said, for depiction of spatiality, nothing, and I mean nothing, can touch a well made binaural recording on a good set of cans. It spanks the best 7.1 system you have ever heard... easily. Search for 'binaural matches' or 'binaural haircut', or 'binaural' on Wikipedia; there are samples available. When you hear the matchbox being shaken in a circle around and then over the top of your head... Well, there is no surround sound speaker setup that can do that at any price. The downside? A near total dearth of source material.
Thanks, I will definitely look into that! And I agree, I've never heard a surround rig pull that off with the matches lol
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Agree 150%. I use software crossfeed on my computer based system which allows much more precise control over the effect than hardware based analog crossfeed.
You need to tell us, how is that more precise than analog crossfeed, if you want us to take you
seriously... :green:
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If anyone is interested in the Meier version of the circuit/implementation, here's a link to the website. He also has audio samples that you can listen to with headphones to get a feel for the way it functions. The samples were recorded using his actual circuit via the "Daccord" DAC.
This link takes you to the main page of his site...at the top, just click on "info crossfeed". The audio clips are at the bottom of the page:
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/
Also, last year when I first started looking into crossfeed, one of the best resources on head-fi was Tyll Herstens, who many of you are already familiar with and probably rely on for a lot of great info. I'm a bit sleepy to search for his posts tonight, but they are there for anyone interested.
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You need to tell us, how is that more precise than analog crossfeed, if you want us to take you
seriously... :green:
It doesn't particularly matter to me whether you take me seriously or not; but you can find out about Canz3D with a minimal amount of googling if you like. He lays out his case as to what digital cross feed can do that analog can't. There are samples there. Make up your own mind. (As an advocate of mono, it may not be your cup of tea.) Just go to midnight walrus.com/canz3d if interested; if not interested, have a nice day!
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Chesky has a couple of binaural CD's out there. One of them is a demo disc
that has a wide variety of music on it as well as the more sound effect oriented stuff.
Hibuck....
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I am greatly dumbfound by the way many headphone fans described the 'soundstage' they are hearing through their headphones.
I had this same experience a while back : http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113772.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113772.0)
I finally got over it and no longer believe much of what is written about headphones.
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I had this same experience a while back : http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113772.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113772.0)
I finally got over it and no longer believe much of what is written about headphones.
Why? No matter how many graphs, charts and measurements that are out there, audio reproduction always comes down to our own subjective experience. There is very little uniformity in this hobby and there's no such thing as a headphone that EVERYONE loves or a type of music that EVERYONE listens to. To me, it's all about getting to know what works best for you in terms of your own enjoyment.
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BTW, I was talking to Jan Meier about the two new lines of headphones he's decided to carry, so I asked him to comment on the crossfeed vs crosstalk thing. His response is below...
With crosstalk part of the left channel signal is directly fed into the
right channel.
With crossfeed part of the left channel is delayed (!) and next fed into
the right channel.
With crosstalk the high frequencies are normally stronger "crossed" then
lower frequencies, due to capacitive coupling.
With crossfeed the lower frequencies are stronger "crossed". The
shadowing effect of the head is stronger for high frequencies.
The major differences between crosstalk and crossfeed is this time delay
as well as the different frequency curves.
Stereo as listened to by headphones is not natural stereo. The high
channel separation achieved by headphones is not heard in real life.
Crossfeed electronically simulates parts of the natural hearing process.
The appreciation of crossfeed is a very personal one. Around one third
of my customers never use, one third only with strong panned recordings,
and one third can't do without.
There is no good nor wrong. Just different.
Cheers
Jan
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In the previous soundstage thread, this is what I learned :
I was just wondering if I was missing out on something that is talked about in the headphone forums. I wondered if some headphone users could actually hear music laid out in front of them the same way they might be able to hear the same music coming from a pair of speakers in a room. Now I realize that they don't, or can't, and that their description of soundstage is relative to what is possible within the confined headphone experience.
That's all I meant to say.
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I am greatly dumbfound by the way many headphone fans described the 'soundstage' they are hearing through their headphones.
Barry,
Iam in the same corner than you, Iam waiting to invest in a fullrange speaker or in the HD800/tube amp, but impossible so far to find a HD800 to listen afew minutes, Seenheiser are ignore me.
I already contact the general manager and flat no way to a demo HD800.
Certainly a good phones had a better image than a multiway loudspeaker, but the phones soundstage seems smaller than a floor standing speaker, unless the HD800 reports are true.
The HD800 have the bigger soundstage til today, more info on this massive test:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared-update-audeze-lcd-2-revision-2-6-4-13
If you want a big soundstage I suggest the HD800;
Good Luck
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In the previous soundstage thread, this is what I learned :
That's all I meant to say.
Oh okay, yeah I would definitely say that's my experience, as well. For me I've found that I enjoy using them in different ways and at different times. Sometimes I dont' feel like sitting in the sweet spot on the couch to enjoy music, and the idea of laying down in bed with some headphones is a really great alternative.
But while I do know people who prefer headphones over speakers, I dont know many who would say that headphones present music in the same manner.
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BTW, I was talking to Jan Meier about the two new lines of headphones he's decided to carry, so I asked him to comment on the crossfeed vs crosstalk thing. His response is below...
With crosstalk part of the left channel signal is directly fed into the
right channel.
With crossfeed part of the left channel is delayed (!) and next fed into
the right channel.
With crosstalk the high frequencies are normally stronger "crossed" then
lower frequencies, due to capacitive coupling.
With crossfeed the lower frequencies are stronger "crossed". The
shadowing effect of the head is stronger for high frequencies.
The major differences between crosstalk and crossfeed is this time delay
as well as the different frequency curves.
Stereo as listened to by headphones is not natural stereo. The high
channel separation achieved by headphones is not heard in real life.
Crossfeed electronically simulates parts of the natural hearing process.
The appreciation of crossfeed is a very personal one. Around one third
of my customers never use, one third only with strong panned recordings,
and one third can't do without.
There is no good nor wrong. Just different.
Cheers
Jan
Crossfeed is a tone filter with a channel mixer,loudspeaker channel separation is
the same as pure headphone separation...
Crossfeed as tone filter is ok,but not the best,any other filter can compete with
crossfeed and is that ok too...
Hope that helps... :green:
ps: ajzepp and dbcooper use an equaliser... :lol:
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Whatever
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lol
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I had/have the same experience as you. I wanted the biggest soundstage out of headphones, so I purchased the Senn HD-800 and a nice Woo Audio amp to go with. I used it a while, broke everything in properly, but the "soundstage" the HD-800's are supposedly known for never appeared for me, I didn't understand...still don't. :scratch: Came to the conclusion, that headphones aren't for me and quickly sold both items...that was a couple years ago.
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Headphones have the best sound because it's right off the amp - no room smearing of highs, no room smearing of bass, etc. The loudspeaker experience isn't so much about audio anyway, it's about getting the sonic equivalent of a jacuzzi experience. Let those who want to experience the 'feel' of music enjoy what they like - who cares anyway? The world is passing those people by.
My comments are referring to the topic at hand which is "headphone soundstage." Not so much a loudspeaker vs. headphone opinion pissing contest.
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Headphones have the best sound because it's right off the amp - no room smearing of highs, no room smearing of bass, etc. The loudspeaker experience isn't so much about audio anyway, it's about getting the sonic equivalent of a jacuzzi experience. Let those who want to experience the 'feel' of music enjoy what they like - who cares anyway? The world is passing those people by.
Dammit......it came right out my nose.....
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Well, if we can get back to being Nice, it is hard to discuss the original topic without a frame of reference, the obvious one being the sound of speakers in a room, especially since traditionally, most recordings have been produced with that type of listening setup in mind. Of course, soundstage from speakers varies dramatically depending on many variables, a problem headphones are free from. I think this may be dalethorn's point.
I have no problem with yo2tup expressing a contrary opinion. Headphone "soundstage" is different than that of speakers. I have heard the HD800 along with many others over the years; the HD800, with its angled drivers, has acquired a "rep" for a "huge soundstage", but to my ears, "soundstage" has much more to do with the properties of the recorded material than anything else. My HD55s have angled drivers too; my HD650s do not. I don't hear a big difference in "soundstage" between them. Koss made "4-channel" headphones during that era. They tanked in the marketplace, partly because they simply didn't work. A good set of "cans" will far exceed the definition of all but the most elite of speakers, but the perspective is an acquired taste for some. Like anything, we picks our poison...
Crossfeed, despite what G G implies, is not simply applying EQ and blending channels. Crossfeed effects are frequency dependent and designed to simulate the ways in which, with speakers, each ear hears both speakers, but in different ways. The frequency and phase relationships are known and can be simulated more easily in the digital domain than in the analog domain. A little googling and reviewing sites like the Canz3D would provide better descriptions than I can.
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iFi has a holographic 3D expanding feature in the iCan, which has been reviewed as a very good can amp, but is limited to due to it's wattage output. It has been noted that the effect varies due to the can used. YMMV
http://ifi-audio.com/en/iCAN.html
Freds Headphone Amplifiers makes a cross feed device...cheep too.
http://fredsamplifiers.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24&zenid=79b52829d860369a53038f82713dec34
For the last few months I have been looking into a head system. Like Milford I lost my listening room from Sandy and we have had family move in which took up the other bedrooms.
Good thread, thanks gents. :D
Chris
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Ever since I discovered Stax headphones, my whole outlook on headphones changed for the better. The playback from a Stax SRM 7ii amp and SR 507 cans just seem to outperform any set of speakers I've ever heard. Take any recording you think you know, listen to it through the Stax setup, and be prepared to be amazed and humbled.
I'm surprised there isn't more research into binaural playback. With today's DSP, it would seem that one could take the audio in the digital domain, apply a binaural algorithm to the music, and then convert to analog. That would address the sound staging issue (assuming it worked correctly :thumb: ).
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There are many sources of outstanding recordings that take headphones into account. HD Tracks is just one of many.
I don't doubt that. The point here is that it would be good to have a "binaural" option available on DAC processors. That way, all one's music library would be able to better support headphone playback.
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No DSP is perfect. That goes for cross feed too. It can help, but it is not perfect. Recordings that have an original binaural mix are the way to go. As much listening as is done with headphones today, perhaps this is a timely idea.
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The really cool thing about headphones is that their measured performance is repeatable on everyone's head. It's that fact that leads way to DTS Headphone:X as an example.
It is possible to create a transfer function for a headphone to control sounds, effects, and dimension for the listener. With some ingenuity and time (lots of it) recordings can be manipulated using DSP for a particular headphone and recording to create a better soundstage.
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ps: ajzepp and dbcooper use an equaliser... :lol:
Hard to believe it, it is a joke??
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I had/have the same experience as you. I wanted the biggest soundstage out of headphones, so I purchased the Senn HD-800 and a nice Woo Audio amp to go with. I used it a while, broke everything in properly, but the "soundstage" the HD-800's are supposedly known for never appeared for me, I didn't understand...still don't. :scratch: Came to the conclusion, that headphones aren't for me and quickly sold both items...that was a couple years ago.
Wow incredrible, too bad.
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Hard to believe it, it is a joke??
No idea...absolutely no interest in EQing, though...and that has nothing to do with crossfeed anyway. :roll:
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Wow incredrible, too bad.
I would be curious to know what other headphone listening experience yo2tup has had- perhaps the fault is not with the HD800 per se, but maybe he is simply one of those who does not find the headphone "presentation" convincing- which is fine. You can find "likers" and "dislikers" for planars, single driver systems, open baffles, SET amps, headphones, and any other branch of the audio hobby you care to name. They all have imperfections and shortcomings, which are experienced by different listeners in different ways. What makes Component A sound better than Component B to Listener 1 and the exact opposite to Listener 2- well, that's just how it is, and that goes for recordings too- one consumer review described the Sennheiser 650 as having a "Three-lump soundstage". I am listening to the Beethoven Overture #72 on mine right now and the soundstage sounds damn good… to me.
To get back from my pontificating to something resembling the original topic, the stereo image, or "soundstage" if you prefer, is not like speakers (although well-done crossfeed narrows the gap). These departures from reality bother some quite a bit. I suspect that they just experience it differently. For me the detail and definition make it worthwhile. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot… listen whatever way floats your boat. (Damn, the drums in this Britten "Sinfonia da Requiem" sound awesome on these 650's…)
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It seems a little north of strictly neutral in the highs to me, but nowhere near the K701 or the Beyer T90's I've listened to. After being dogged for so many years by so many listeners about the so called "veil", I suppose it's understandable they voiced it that way. That doesn't relate to the sound staging aspect however. Ain't spending $1.5K for cans anyhoo, so unless the Prize Patrol shows up...
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A perfect example of how little difference 'crossfeed' makes compared to recordings:
Seems like there are many definitions of crossfeed being discussed. The Meier circuit is designed to be very subtle, which is a big reason why I enjoy it. I notice it more when I disengage it after having it in play for a length of time.
In terms of soundstage, though, I agree the recording can make a significant difference.
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It seems a little north of strictly neutral in the highs to me, but nowhere near the K701 or the Beyer T90's I've listened to. Ain't spending $1.5K for cans anyhoo, so unless the Prize Patrol shows up...
You mean you're not going to bite on these babies?
(http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/JPSLabs_AbyssAB1266_Photo_Main.jpg)
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Naaaaahhhh…..
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Only 5k+ and with the right amp and dac there from another planet
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Lesson learned: The recording is the key, and any DSP can address only certain recordings - trying to change DSP's on a recording-by-recording basis would be a nightmare.
Absolutely, a crappy recording is not going to be 'saved' by crossfeed or any other kind of DSP. Garbage in, garbage out. But a good recording can sometimes sound more natural (to my ears). What ajzepp said about subtlety- I use both Canz3D through audio Hijack Pro, and the cross feed add on for Fidelia. AHP has a 'wet/dry' mixer that allows the user to set how strong they want the effect to be. I almost never have it very high up; I just adjust the slider to where that particular recording sounds best- to me. If the effect is obvious, you probably need to dial it back, like when an image is sharpened too much in Photoshop.
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Have you guys ever heard any of the Mapleshade Records recordings?
Check out this info about their recording techniques if it's of any interest...I own a few of their CDs and find them to sound remarkable.
http://mapleshaderecords.com/main/aboutus.php
Our recording technology is equally radical. We design and build, or custom-modify, all of our electronics from microphones to tape recorders to wires. All must meet standards well beyond commercial state-of-the-art. We record live to two-track analog, transfer to digital at a rate 100 times faster than the CD standard, and use no add-on EQ, reverb or noise reduction electronics. Our recordings are made with only 2 to 4 microphones and no cables longer than 20 feet. The resulting sound has startling, "in-the-room" clarity, brilliance, spaciousness and dynamics. People with $150 boomboxes, as well as audiophiles with $100,000 systems, tell us our CDs convey far more of the music's excitement than any commercial studio recordings.
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No, can't say that I have. Recommendations?
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No, can't say that I have. Recommendations?
Well, most of their stuff is Jazz, which is one of the few genres that I have no knowledge of or interest in, unfortunately. They do have a sampler, though, which was the first album I ever bought from them...and there is also a recording of the ARC choir from NYC, which is fantastic. I'm not an expert in recording techniques by any means, but their process sure seems to work...at least that's what my ears tell me :) I think they even offer return periods on their music, IIRC...
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http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=08132
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I had the HD800 for 3 years, and while it sounds "great", the larger consensus among audiophiles is that it's a bit too bright. That varies with the amp of course, but my experience mirrors Innerfidelity, as well as David Mahler of headphones dot com who did the renowned 50-headphone review on headfi.
The seeming HD800 strong treble can be easily moded, but enlarge a small sound stage is rather more difficult.
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Mapleshade recordings are very good quality, but with most of the tracks I sampled, the musicians sounded as though they were sitting on my lap. Really close up.
The same on my desktop speakers.
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Absolutely, a crappy recording is not going to be 'saved' by crossfeed or any other kind of DSP. Garbage in, garbage out.
A nice EL34 amp can do it;
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FWIW Decware use the Mellow Saxophone recording from Mapleshade:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/zenfest2013.html
To demo speakers, scroll down to the MG944 video;
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Decware is a fascinating company to me...I was very close to picking up a pair of Steve's monitors last year but went in another direction when the build time was so long. One of these days I'll become a customer.
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Here is my Zen Head. Just love it. Now the question, does an amplifier effect soundstage?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89860)
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The Emotiva Xda2 headphone amp/dac/pre has excellent sound stage, much better than I anticipated. Never get the impression of left and right, but it's a fully immersive soundstage with no gaps, and spatial cues have appropriate depth or distance.
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I always knew you guys were a couple of Zen Heads.... :lol:
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Here is my Zen Head. Just love it. Now the question, does an amplifier effect soundstage?
Ask ten audiophiles, get eleven answers...
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This has been an interesting thread to read. Since switching to headphones this year
I have been amazed at the detail they provide. I don't know is this has an effect on
sound stage but with my system I notice detail even when the sound stage is limited
as with mono jazz recordings and other recordings that are recorded inside the box.
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but with my system I notice detail even when the sound stage is limited
as with mono jazz recordings and other recordings that are recorded inside the box.
Actually you only get soundstage with mono...
stereo with headphones has no sound stage... :lol:
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What do you call the stereo presentation? It could be argued that the instruments and voice
on a stereo recording is a representation of where the instruments are in a live performance.
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What do you call the stereo presentation? It could be argued that the instruments and voice
on a stereo recording is a representation of where the instruments are in a live performance.
But you cant replicate stereo with headphones as is with loudspeakers,the best bet is mono
which appears at the center of your head,this could be called soundstage minus sound effects of stereo...
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I don't understand your logic. You have a two channel system with cans
and I grant you that they don't mimic speakers but you still have left right and
center. With mono how would you have a center image without sound from two channels?
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With mono how would you have a center image without sound from two channels?
It's easy, there is only a center image with mono, .... :lol:
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+1 on dale's previous post
"Everybody's out of step but Johnny"
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Dalethorn, well said and what you say makes perfect sense. Now, has this thread been
about listening to mono recordings or does the stereo sound effect present and artificial
sound stage?
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+1 on dale's previous post
"Everybody's out of step but Johnny"
*spits iced tea onto keyboard*
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Now as to stereo being artificial, just set a few stereo tracks to mono if your system allows that, and observe how some instruments and voices can virtually disappear due to phase cancellation. You may need to test a variety of music. The principle is clear I think - whatever the mics capture, you don't want your system to lose. If the mastering engineers 'disappear' something, fine, but you don't want your system to lose information unless you do it on purpose.
Dalethorn what are you on about...nothing is lost with mono...I use a mixer to mix stereo
to mono and all music information is mixed nothing is lost...i dont know where you got that
information or what kind of hardware you used to come to that conclusion...
nothing is lost mate... :green:
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That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.
I am interested in the topic at hand, which as I understand it, is how we hear/experience the phenomenon of "sound staging" or "imaging" with stereo headphones (a useful point of reference being the same phenomena through speakers.) "Staging" by definition implies more than one channel; that's what drove the development of stereo. Mono through headphones sounds like it is coming from a point, not a "stage". No prob if that is what you like; but 99.97% of people are going to want to listen to stereo material in stereo, so the topic of mono seems like it may be a tangent at best.
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That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.
The only thing that's lost is stereo...mixing doesnt lose music signal even an out of phase... :lol:
you guys are funny! :lol:
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db well said
+1
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Hi db Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:
Guy 13
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That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.
I am interested in the topic at hand, which as I understand it, is how we hear/experience the phenomenon of "sound staging" or "imaging" with stereo headphones (a useful point of reference being the same phenomena through speakers.) "Staging" by definition implies more than one channel; that's what drove the development of stereo. Mono through headphones sounds like it is coming from a point, not a "stage". No prob if that is what you like; but 99.97% of people are going to want to listen to stereo material in stereo, so the topic of mono seems like it may be a tangent at best.
+7
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Hi db Cooperand all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:
Guy 13
+1
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"Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
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Hi db Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:
Guy 13
Thanks Guy13. Hope you enjoy your HD650s as much as I enjoy mine.
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You're misinforming here - it's true that you can use a mixing program to tweak the mix so nothing is lost, but if you use an amp that has a stereo/mono switch and flip to mono, lots will be lost due to phase cancelation.
The same happens with stereo acoustically with out of phase signals...
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
May I say that we are drifting from the original post.
My opinion, for the Audio Circle members that care to read it,
is that the headphones cannot achieve the same stereo image as speakers.
From cheap 20 USD to six units later with the Sennheiser HD-650,
none of them can have the same stereo image as any of my speakers.
Am I right or wrong?
You tell me with simple words,
since I don't have an IQ of 140. :cry:
Guy 13
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Guy13,
You are correct.
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Guy13,
You are correct.
`
Thanks !
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Headphones indeed do not have the same "stereo image" or "sound stage" as speakers (although cross feed helps IMHO) but they exceed the speaker experience in some ways. It isn't that they cannot provide the experience (to repeat my earlier point, good binaural is amazing) but the problem lies in the fact that almost all recordings are mixed and mastered for loudspeakers.
Just my two cents
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Thanks Guy13. Hope you enjoy your HD650s as much as I enjoy mine.
Hi dB Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
I don't enjoy my HD-650 s much as you do,
because I don't have yet my Bottlehead Crack.
It's been ordered and ship to an Audio Circle member
that will put it together for me for a less than...
Well, for a good price that will save me the trouble of putting it together.
In the mean time, I use my HD-650 with my Sony mini system, better than nothing and it will make me appreciate more my Crack when I get it.
Guy 13
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dalethorn makes some interesting points. When you listen to speakers, you aren't just listening to the speakers; you're listening to the room. Freedom from this issue is one of the 'pluses' of headphones. (As a side note, since the room contributes so much to the 'sound', I am frequently amazed by photos of megabuck systems where it looks like little or no attention was paid to the room acoustics. I wonder if it wouldn't sound better if the budget was allocated just a bit differently...)
I also agree with his comments on miking. The more complex the miking setup, the less 'natural' it seems to sound on cans... The detail often stands out more but can sound 'disembodied' somehow. (happens with speakers too now that I think of it...) A simply miked jazz ensemble (or symphony orchestra), recorded in a space with good acoustics, can sound glorious on headphones.
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A simply miked jazz ensemble (or symphony orchestra), recorded in a space with good acoustics, can sound glorious on headphones.
A glorious performance to me means a giant soundstage be headphones or floorstanders spaekers, but no monopole speakers, as they are very disappointing;
In this item phones would be better than a OB set.
P.S.: If various phones offer a giant soundstage at affordable prices the future of Hi-End Audio may be Headphones and not loudspeakers... :thumb:
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
May I say that we are drifting from the original post.
My opinion, for the Audio Circle members that care to read it,
is that the headphones cannot achieve the same stereo image as speakers.
From cheap 20 USD to six units later with the Sennheiser HD-650,
none of them can have the same stereo image as any of my speakers.
Am I right or wrong?
You tell me with simple words,
since I don't have an IQ of 140. :cry:
Guy 13
Well said, Guy...and I agree. The difference with my opinion vs the opinions of others is that I don't really view one as better than the other in terms of speakers vs headphones. I see different applications for each and each has their strengths and weaknesses. I agree with what dbCooper said below in that there are some things headphones can do that speakers can't/don't, and vice versa. And I also agree with Dale, db, and Milford (Milford has made this point multiple times in the past) that taking the room out of the equation is a HUGE advantage for headphones.
When I purchased some Audeze LCD-2s a month or so ago, I was truly amazed at just how far I could see (hear) into the music. The T1s are nearly on par with this, and it's pretty amazing. I love being able to be in the car, laying in bed, sitting at work, etc, etc and have fantastic sound. With speakers obviously I don't have that advantage. With speakers, and especially with my Maggies, I can get just an absolutely HUGE sound stage and the impact of the music is completely different. I don't need surround sound, either...just two big mama Maggies and I'm good to go. But as incredibly detailed and transparent as my Maggies are, in terms of hearing DEEEEEP into the music, headphones take the cake.
Now, when I had a FULLY treated room at my old place....I'm talking over 25 traps and panels in an 11x16 room, I had stunning sound from my DeVore Fidelity Super 8s. I often use people who not only don't have much interest in audio, but who even think I'm nutso for spending as much money as I do on this hobby, to offer feedback on what they hear. My brother was a keen example, and even though he thought I was nuts, he still offered me his honest opinion. I took a little iPod nano via a LOD cable into a Mapletree Audio Line 2a-SE preamp, and fired up a few tracks. He was absolutely in awe of the sound, just as I was. Both before, and ESPECIALLY after, the room treatments were in play, the sound was average-to-poor. But in the treated room it was stunning. But again, would it sound that way if I was in the other room or in my bed while the stereo was playing? No, not even close. But when I whip out my trust headphones, I'm good no matter where I'm at or what I'm doing.
So with me, it's not a matter of one being "better" than the other....just different...and I have uses for both and have a blast doing it this way.
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P.S.: If various phones offer a giant soundstage at affordable prices the future of Hi-End Audio may be Headphones and not loudspeakers... :thumb:
It's funny cause I've been into home audio/video for about 20 years....and even though I always knew there was a whole other side to the hobby - headphones - and even had people tell me "you haven't heard this song until you've heard it on a great pair of headphones", I jsut never had any interest. The idea that headphones could have anything to offer me outside of my speakers was preposterous to me. But I think you're exactly right...headphones are on the rise and I could very easily see many high end audiophiles and music lovers such as myself making the transition from speakers. There are some pretty amazing products out there right now and its' only going to get better.
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(As a side note, since the room contributes so much to the 'sound', I am frequently amazed by photos of megabuck systems where it looks like little or no attention was paid to the room acoustics. I wonder if it wouldn't sound better if the budget was allocated just a bit differently...)
I resisted the urge to treat the room because it just wasn't very "sexy", you know? It was far more exciting to think about a speaker upgrade or chanign out some gear, or whatever else. Really the only reason I ended up giving in was because GIK acoustics was so popular on here, and their headquarters is located about 20 min from my front door. So I ordered 20+ pieces one day, spend the afternoon installing them, and I knew I'd never downplay the impact of the room ever again. It was the most dramatic improvement I'd ever experienced in this hobby, on par (for me) with going from an average pair of speakers to a higher end pair. I was floored.
But yeah, I agree with you 100%...it's amazign that people can spend SO much money on incredible gear but fail to treat the room.
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
After reading most of the post about headphone soundstage
I decided to have a little headphone listening session.
I’ve used my Sennheiser HD-570 and HD-650 with my Sony SS receiver, since I don’t have yet my Bottlehead crack.
I want to share with you my findings, which are not new to me
and probably the same to you.
The stereo image (As I call it) is there, it’s the stage, the musicians or the singer that is mostly over my head or in front of my forehead.
Of course, you have different sounds from left to right, but most of the action is in the middle.
I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.
I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.
I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.
Well that’s it, not much new for many of you, but just want to share and see if you agree or not or can add something I don’t already know.
Forgot to add the following:
Of course recording can improve or degrade stereo imaging,
how they record and mix and how many microphones are used...
Guy 13
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I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.
Both Canz3D and the FHX processor add-on for Fidelia allow you to set the angle of the "virtual" speakers. This is an example of something easier to do in the digital domain than analog.I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.
This has actually been tried; it was called the AKG K1000. It was legendary for being big, ugly, clunky, and very hard to drive. The newer Sennheiser models have a more practical implementation of the angled-driver concept although I can't say I hear much of a difference attributable to this between my angled-driver 555s and my straight-firing 650s.I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.
I have this one (http://www.chesky.com/drchsefaands.html), which they market as "binaural plus", meaning they claim it sounds good on headphones or (unlike most binaural recordings) speakers too. It does sound good (although I think "headphone-only"-binaural sounds better.)
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
After reading most of the post about headphone soundstage
I decided to have a little headphone listening session.
I’ve used my Sennheiser HD-570 and HD-650 with my Sony SS receiver, since I don’t have yet my Bottlehead crack.
I want to share with you my findings, which are not new to me
and probably the same to you.
The stereo image (As I call it) is there, it’s the stage, the musicians or the singer that is mostly over my head or in front of my forehead.
Of course, you have different sounds from left to right, but most of the action is in the middle.
I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.
I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.
I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.
Well that’s it, not much new for many of you, but just want to share and see if you agree or not or can add something I don’t already know.
Forgot to add the following:
Of course recording can improve or degrade stereo imaging,
how they record and mix and how many microphones are used...
Guy 13
Great post Guy. Clear and to the point,,, and on topic too. :thumb:
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Great post Guy. Clear and to the point,,, and on topic too. :thumb:
Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks QuietEarth. :bowdown:
I am glad that someone appreciate and like what I wrote.
I've tried to make it simple as in :
Audio should be simple. :thumb:
And I tried not to drift off topic, something that happen often... :nono: :shake:
Guy 13
I am having fun with all those little funny icons.
Small things, amuse small minds.
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You're freaking out over nothing. This is a discussion about headphone soundstage verses speaker soundstage, and that is all it is ( or should be, or intended to be).
You are the one making a mountain over a molehill dale. You need to let it go. Nobody here is dissing headphones because they present the music differently. It's all in your mind.
Chill. :sleep:
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I agree with Quiet Earth. Also with the views expressed by ajzepp and Guy 13. I have a decent headphone rig here and I didn't spend that kind of money on that stuff because I hate headphones. That being said, I prefer listening to music via my speakers for reasons others have covered .
Am I throwing my T1s or my 600's out the window? No, of course not. They're fine cans and they have a place in my system.
Am I spouting heresy by saying I agree with the OP and others who find speakers soundstage better than headphones? Apparently, in the minds of some, yes.
Do I care about that? No. Frankly, the most negative thing I've read in this thread so far is the relentless pursuit of an agenda by one guy at the expense of everyone else contributing. It's OK if we don't all share the same opinion so spare us the evangelism.
And we'll post in whatever threads we bloody well please.
D.D.
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
The relatively new Audio Circle member is creating lots of waves with this (Simple headphone soundstage) topic, don’t you think so?
We old Audio Circle timers know that we are here to discuss exchange, learn and have fun; this discussion (Attack) is not fun anymore.
Let’s ignore those comments coming from a frustrated and jumpy new Audio Circle members.
By responding to his comments, it’s like putting oil on the fire, it only get worst.
Guy 13
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You've turned my critique into a personal attack. YOU NEED to let it go, now.
Well, let me try again, since I think that you are doing most of the attacking and rule making on this thread.
Some of us are brave enough (yes brave enough!) to admit that we can't hear a soundstage the way it is so commonly raved about in many headphone internet circles. We accept that what we hear is different than what we hear from a pair of speakers in a room, and that it ok with us. It is probably as it should be. It is not a deal breaker for most of us, and a few people have actually made suggestions for improving soundstage if soundstage is all that you are currently focused on.
For some reason this free exchange of information and personal experience is driving you nuts. You don't want anyone to say anything negative at all about headphones. Even if a negative comment is kept into perspective and only for the sake of discussion. We're not here to steal your headphone kingdom. We are only here to talk about headphones and try to get a better understanding of what other people are experiencing so we can put our experience into a bigger picture. That means we need to hear from everyone. Not just you.
That's what a forum is all about Charlie Brown.
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
The relatively new Audio Circle member is creating lots of waves with this (Simple headphone soundstage) topic, don’t you think so?
We old Audio Circle timers know that we are here to discuss exchange, learn and have fun; this discussion (Attack) is not fun anymore.
Let’s ignore those comments coming from a frustrated and jumpy new Audio Circle members.
By responding to his comments, it’s like putting oil on the fire, it only get worst.
Guy 13
You're right. I think we posted about the same time. I wish I would have said what you said.
Good call and no hard feelings.
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I gave up on 2 channel speakers for family reasons. Peace is all important
for without it its hard to enjoy music. As a result I went to headphones and
at first I was comparing to my speakers and found that they were never going
to compare so I just started listening. What I found was the same thing that
happened with speakers, I started noticing the nuances of headphones and as
time marches on my enjoyment is multiplying. Different music produces different
experiences for me, and so on. It is hard to find a system that disappears and allows
you to experience the music for what it is and I guess that is what this journey is
all about. Thanks
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You're right. I think we posted about the same time. I wish I would have said what you said.
Good call and no hard feelings.
:thumb:
Guy 13
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Well, let me try again, since I think that you are doing most of the attacking and rule making on this thread.
Some of us are brave enough (yes brave enough!) to admit that we can't hear a soundstage the way it is so commonly raved about in many headphone internet circles. We accept that what we hear is different than what we hear from a pair of speakers in a room, and that it ok with us. It is probably as it should be. It is not a deal breaker for most of us, and a few people have actually made suggestions for improving soundstage if soundstage is all that you are currently focused on.
For some reason this free exchange of information and personal experience is driving you nuts. You don't want anyone to say anything negative at all about headphones. Even if a negative comment is kept into perspective and only for the sake of discussion. We're not here to steal your headphone kingdom. We are only here to talk about headphones and try to get a better understanding of what other people are experiencing so we can put our experience into a bigger picture. That means we need to hear from everyone. Not just you.
That's what a forum is all about Charlie Brown.
:thumb:
Guy 13.
(I like the Charlie Brown thing... :lol:)
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I agree with Quiet Earth. Also with the views expressed by ajzepp and Guy 13.
What?? We agree about something?? One of us must not be feeling well :lol:
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My nephew says to me invent something,I have finally done it,stereo is again supreme
with my invention
Oh, what a surprise....George has once again decided to bring up his headphone amp that he sells...
I sent a PM to two people a few days ago when this thread started getting going to alert them to the fact that this is the only reason George graces us with his presence...he has a headphone amp that he peddles and he attempts to take advantage of an established forum here at Audio Circle for free word of mouth advertising. I told these two people it would only be a matter of time until he brought it up in this thread, just like he does in EVERY other headphone related thread, and here you have evidence of it once again. In my opinion it's disrespectful to those of us who post here simply because of a love of headphones and with no profit motive or agenda.
George has proved time and time and time again that he has an ulterior motive for being here, and I wish that others would support me in requesting his posting privileges be suspended with regard to the Headphone Circle.
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Oh, what a surprise....George has once again decided to bring up his headphone amp that he sells...
I sent a PM to two people a few days ago when this thread started getting going to alert them to the fact that this is the only reason George graces us with his presence...he has a headphone amp that he peddles and he attempts to take advantage of an established forum here at Audio Circle for free word of mouth advertising. I told these two people it would only be a matter of time until he brought it up in this thread, just like he does in EVERY other headphone related thread, and here you have evidence of it once again. In my opinion it's disrespectful to those of us who post here simply because of a love of headphones and with no profit motive or agenda.
George has proved time and time and time again that he has an ulterior motive for being here, and I wish that others would support me in requesting his posting privileges be suspended with regard to the Headphone Circle.
Hi ajzepp and all Audio Circle members.
I agree and support your request.
I am sure George is a good guy,
but maybe he should think seriously to be an Industry Participant :scratch:
Guy 13
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PM sent to George. I hate to suspend any member but this is getting a little wacky. Now, back to my Schiit Lyr and Beyer DT 990's. 600 Ohm model of course.
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PM sent to George. I hate to suspend any member but this is getting a little wacky. Now, back to my Schiit Lyr and Beyer DT 990's. 600 Ohm model of course.
What happened to the T1s?? Just giving them the night off? :lol:
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Oh, I still have the T1's. The 990's give me just a better "soundstage." :thumb:
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Oh, I still have the T1's. The 990's give me just a better "soundstage." :thumb:
LOL, well played sir
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I wonder if brawls ever erupt at the "Head-Fi" meets?
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What?? We agree about something?? One of us must not be feeling well :lol:
Oh it's not that bad... :wink: Maybe our new groovy love vibe 'll spread to others. :D
Keep hope alive, my brothers.
D.D.
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I wonder if brawls ever erupt at the "Head-Fi" meets?
:lol:
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I got a pair of Sennheiser HD 800.
And when listening to really well recorded music with a deep sound stage,like this one; Carmen Gomes,Thousand Shades of Blue,
track 1,I'm on Fire
http://www.soundliaison.com/products-from-our-studio-showcase-series/1-carmen-gomes-inc (http://www.soundliaison.com/products-from-our-studio-showcase-series/1-carmen-gomes-inc)
(it even sounds great just from the playback (mp3?) from the website,the 24/96 is mind blowing,but then you have to buy).
any way I prefer my HD 800 for this recording above my speakers,more 3 dimensional in my opinion.But to be fair I still have to improve my room acoustics.
(http://www.soundliaison.com/images/A_MyMuseImages/SSS1%20Milan%20300.png)
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I got a pair of Sennheiser HD 800.
And when listening to really well recorded music with a deep sound stage,like this one; Carmen Gomes,Thousand Shades of Blue,
track 1,I'm on Fire
http://www.soundliaison.com/products-from-our-studio-showcase-series/1-carmen-gomes-inc (http://www.soundliaison.com/products-from-our-studio-showcase-series/1-carmen-gomes-inc)
(it even sounds great just from the playback (mp3?) from the website,the 24/96 is mind blowing,but then you have to buy).
any way I prefer my HD 800 for this recording above my speakers,more 3 dimensional in my opinion.But to be fair I still have to improve my room acoustics.
(http://www.soundliaison.com/images/A_MyMuseImages/SSS1%20Milan%20300.png)
I listened to this recording with my Grado RS1's. You are so correct. Much better soundstage with the headphones over my main speakers.
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So got into this late and listened to the op's original crosstalk links. I couldn't hear any speaker like soundstage as detailed in the diagrams. Headphones sound like headphones, it's a different experience. Why would anyone hang onto the thought that headphones can image like speakers in a room?
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I'm using the Grado PS2000e's with Cardas Clear balanced 4 pin powered by the Bryston BHA-1 and I can report an extra cranial 3D soundstage that is so good I have used the setup to better dial my Focal Sopra 2's into the room. Of course the listening experience is different. Not better or worse, just different. I am a soundstage and imaging junky (not good or bad, just my cup of tea) and both the Grado's and the Sopras are deeply satisfying to me each in their own way. When this question was posed at the beginning of the thread I thought wow, how are we going to control the variables (phones, amps, cables, recordings) because if we don't a fight's going to break out :duel:
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I'm using the Grado PS2000e's with Cardas Clear balanced 4 pin powered by the Bryston BHA-1 and I can report an extra cranial 3D soundstage that is so good I have used the setup to better dial my Focal Sopra 2's into the room. Of course the listening experience is different. Not better or worse, just different. I am a soundstage and imaging junky (not good or bad, just my cup of tea) and both the Grado's and the Sopras are deeply satisfying to me each in their own way. When this question was posed at the beginning of the thread I thought wow, how are we going to control the variables (phones, amps, cables, recordings) because if we don't a fight's going to break out :duel:
My cheap HE400 w/the supplied mini plug also display a extra cranial sound stage, the prob its just 1 metre wide, this dont substitute an loudspeaker ((
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They are definitely different listening experiences and people hear/listen differently too... I have the Chesky 'Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc (a binaural recording (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiMtOWCyvvXAhXlkOAKHT_XDNUQFghHMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBinaural_recording&usg=AOvVaw3ug6lnZpEqwtz7VDLrrdZJ)) and the 'soundstage' on the front/back demo tracks is very wide, sounding far out from my ear, and there is some differentiation between front and back but it sounds like the two peple speaking are standing a few feet to my side. one just slightly in front of my ear axis, one just slightly behind, almost shoulder-to-shoulder. I don't know if this is how it sounds or if there is some oddity about how I perceive a stereo image. But even within the context of a headphone 'image' different headphones vary in how distinctly they locate instruments (I will have more to say about this when I do my Amiron review).
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Slightly off topic, but to Dale's point, many early stereo recordings have extraordinary soundstaging (the ones that didn't deliberately go for the 'ping-pong' stereo effect, anyway). I attribute this to the simple miking arrangements that were the norm then.
I understand the beefs about headphone soundstaging (saw it referred to as 'headstaging' by one Head-fi person) but for me, really good headphones are much more accessible economically (probably about a 25:1 ratio in 'fi' per dollar) and outperform all but extremely expensive speakers in pretty much any other characteristic you could name. No crossover anomalies, no room acoustic or placement issues due to no room effects, nobody wanting you to turn it down, lower distortion levels... they work for me.
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(saw it referred to as 'headstaging' by one Head-fi person)
This is a wrong denomination, unless it refers to the small soundstage of an IEM.
HP manufacturers stm ignore the size of the sound stage their products offer and make no effort to increase it other than the angled pads.
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My cheap HE400 w/the supplied mini plug also display a extra cranial sound stage, the prob its just 1 metre wide, this dont substitute an loudspeaker ((
Good for you! Glad to hear your head is less than a meter wide :lol:
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(saw it referred to as 'headstaging' by one Head-fi person)
This is a wrong denomination, unless it refers to the small soundstage of an IEM.
I suppose the term refers to the fact that headphones don't exactly have 'soundstage' in the way that term is generally used to describe speaker-based systems (a symphony orchestra isn't represented fully by a speaker based setup either,; just a different kind of 'wrong'.)
HP manufacturers stm ignore the size of the sound stage their products offer and make no effort to increase it other than the angled pads.
I'm sure they're doing what they can and are open to suggestions. Have any?
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I suppose the term refers to the fact that headphones don't exactly have 'soundstage'
This make sense, they are quite small imo.
I'm sure they're doing what they can and are open to suggestions. Have any?
I dont see any effort so far, just hyped prices.
I already said my suggestion in other thread:
The only way to enlarge soundstage in dynamic HPs is 10cm diameter cone drivers or larger, the bigger the best.
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I remember this thread from back in 2013 because I was just getting in to high end headphones back then. I think the answer is quite clear and universal, something almost unheard of in hifi, headphones can be very enjoyable but don't compare in soundstaging to a set of good speakers. Thus the term "headstage" is quite appropriate, very descriptive and accurate of the headphone listening experience. It doesn't denigrate in any way and identifies as something different.
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Nothing that hasn’t been sorta shared before but just in my own way of thinking about it:
Even only moderately good headphones offer an unparalleled way to get as intimate as possible with the full measure of raw detail that is in the recording.
A good 2 channel speaker setup offers an unparalleled way to go into the image/soundstage/soundspace and at an “adequate volume” (smile) the physicality of the music in the recording.
If possible, I wouldn’t choose to live without both setups being available for their special charms.
Cheers, John
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In the current headphones develop stage only HD800 have a decent soundstage size but are expensive and show a harsh rough sound with cheap amps and anemic bass, so today we need a good sound tube amp that anlarge soundstage, the only one I know is the iFi ican-pro with 30/60/90 degs.
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This thread has not received a post since 1 Oct 2018 more than a year ago.
Unsticking.
If there are any topics that you think should be "stickied" please let me know!
Alex