AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Home Improvements and Renovations => Topic started by: ctviggen on 3 Apr 2014, 04:23 pm
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If so, did you buy or rent? How do you like them? Are there any detriments?
We had 11.5kw of solar panels installed on our house (which has an in law apartment, complete with oven/fridge, etc.). We've only had it really working for a month (it was installed during the winter, and it wasn't working correctly, but they couldn't come out to fix it due to inclement weather). We purchased ours outright, and the installed cost should be $3.20/watt (before federal and local incentives, which dramatically lowered the overall cost). The cost should be that as we believe enough people signed up to get us into another "tier", which means we should get money back.
The only detriments are that the panels on the main roof don't hold snow (which is also a benefit), so the snow ends up on our deck. We had about 4 feet of snow on our deck at one time. The other detriment is that if you have to buy electricity, since you're buying less, they charge you more per kw. For instance, when our system was only partially working, the electric company charged us 24 cents per kwhr! The normal is between 16 and 17 cents per kwhr.
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That is the problem with alternative energy sources, unless the government (tax payers), pay for the upfront costs of an installation, the money just doesn't work out. And, if it did, by that time, repairs would be needed (like new batteries) or converter, and the recovery costs just keep jumping ahead of the game.
I at one time, thought about wind energy, but the expense of it all (and the room needed to place it/service it) just didn't seem to be a fit for our house or our lot.
I do admire your attempt to "get off the grid", but it's an untold story that has an unknown ending.
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The government gives the oil companies tax subsidies too. For example they can write off the costs of exploration despite being one of the most profitable industries in the world. Plus the side effects (externalities ie pollution, oil spills, smog, co2 emissions, etc.) of fossil fuels are a tax on society. The costs of these externalities should be reflected in the price of fuel but they're not therefore they must be viewed as a subsidy.
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So you don't buy any oil or gas then?
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I was looking at new homes that included solar electric panels. I worried about maintenance and the possible necessity of going up on the roof. The roofs were tiled and I was worried they might be damaged by whomever did maintenance or repairs (not me).
I have solar water panels for my pool and I have had to climb on my roof to fix too many leaks. My shingles are composition so I do not worry about cracking them but at this point in my life I want simple and maintenance free.
My professional career has always been in environmental programs. My first job was with a brand new United States EPA then, after Nixon laid me off, I went to work for a brand new Ohio EPA. I am as green as Kermit but I am not yet sold on solar electric for small, home installations.
I have not studied the economics so I could be all wrong. As I stated, at this point in my life I want simple. I prefer to go with passive products like better windows and insulation. Then use energy efficient lights and avoid KW-eating amplifiers.
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Why shouldn't we pay the true costs instead of instead of transferring them to future generations? Gas should be $6.00/gal. Maybe at that point alternative fuels will become cost competitive. As it is big oil is receiving massive subsidies.
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That is the problem with alternative energy sources, unless the government (tax payers), pay for the upfront costs of an installation, the money just doesn't work out. And, if it did, by that time, repairs would be needed (like new batteries) or converter, and the recovery costs just keep jumping ahead of the game.
I at one time, thought about wind energy, but the expense of it all (and the room needed to place it/service it) just didn't seem to be a fit for our house or our lot.
I do admire your attempt to "get off the grid", but it's an untold story that has an unknown ending.
If everyone thought like you then nothing would ever change.
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I was looking at new homes that included solar electric panels. I worried about maintenance and the possible necessity of going up on the roof. The roofs were tiled and I was worried they might be damaged by whomever did maintenance or repairs (not me).
I have solar water panels for my pool and I have had to climb on my roof to fix too many leaks. My shingles are composition so I do not worry about cracking them but at this point in my life I want simple and maintenance free.
My professional career has always been in environmental programs. My first job was with a brand new United States EPA then, after Nixon laid me off, I went to work for a brand new Ohio EPA. I am as green as Kermit but I am not yet sold on solar electric for small, home installations.
I have not studied the economics so I could be all wrong. As I stated, at this point in my life I want simple. I prefer to go with passive products like better windows and insulation. The use energy efficient lights and avoid KW-eating amplifiers.
I have several neighbors who are quite happy with their solar panels. One actually has a sizable surplus of power which he sells back to the utility.
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Good to know. I am still learning. Is it better to buy or lease? I think the homes I was looking at gave the options. FYI, I live in Sacramento, CA. Not the best place for solar but not too bad either.
I have several neighbors who are quite happy with their solar panels. One actually has a sizable surplus of power which he sells back to the utility.
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My brother in law did solar in his So California home about 5 years ago and is very happy. It was professionally installed and there have been no issues. He uses solar to heat the pool (or assist with heating) . Sometimes there is a surplus of electricity. The up front cost was $50,000 and he believes it was worthwhile for the long term due to the high electricity rates.
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I guess one of the reasons I don't get solar is my last electric bill (mid Feb-mid March) was $63.60. The previous billing period it was cold and my bill was $104.95. My house is completely electric-no gas in my hood. Heat, A/C, hot water, everything is electric. I have a huge pool and run the pump a lot in the summer for the solar water panels.
When we have an extra cold spell in the winter or hot spell in the summer my bill might reach $125. The rest of the year it is in the $60 or $70 brackets. That makes it a long time for a solar system to pay for itself.
My brother in law did solar in his So California home about 5 years ago and is very happy. It was professionally installed and there have been no issues. He uses solar to heat the pool (or assist with heating) . Sometimes there is a surplus of electricity. The up front cost was $50,000 and he believes it was worthwhile for the long term due to the high electricity rates.
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I guess one of the reasons I don't get solar is my last electric bill (mid Feb-mid March) was $63.60. The previous billing period it was cold and my bill was $104.95. My house is completely electric-no gas in my hood. Heat, A/C, hot water, everything is electric. I have a huge pool and run the pump a lot in the summer for the solar water panels.
When we have an extra cold spell in the winter or hot spell in the summer my bill might reach $125. The rest of the year it is in the $60 or $70 brackets. That makes it a long time for a solar system to pay for itself.
Wow, you must live in an area with extremely low power rates. My house is in Washington State which does have relatively cheap power due to all of the hydroelectric sources. My bill is somewhat higher than yours. I don't have A/C or a pool and I'm frugal with power use.
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I am waiting for panel efficiency to come up over 17%. I would love to be off grid, but the math (high cost of start up) does not work for me. I'm stuck paying the $150.00-$200.00 per month for now. I hear the tech is ramping up in the next 5 years. Hopefully the trend will continue. Back in the 80's solar companies all went under. I would hate to have an expensive system installed and have a problem 2*-3 years out with no parts and service available.
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If everyone thought like you then nothing would ever change.
If everyone thought like you, we'd all be broke. Oh wait, we are.
I'm sorry I'm just a realist. New technologies will come along in their own time, when the technology is ready and the time is right. Trying to force change on such a microscopic level is fruitless.
Inotherwords my friend, timing is everything and it's not time yet for these spin-off energy sources to be very effective. It then, ends up costing the "enthusiast" lots of money in what "can be" a futile effort.
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Panels or not, reduce your home's energy demands. There are a lot of good reliable systems out there; I've done work on solar systems, of which one house has run for 12 years with only one inverter repair. There are some small, unexpected benefits. Cover your roof with panels and your cooling demand goes down; panels cut way down on solar heat gain and the attic is considerably cooler.
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We have a 4.5kw array that was installed about 12 years ago. I maintain it myself. Every year I climb up on the roof (asphalt shingle) and wash the panels off. I wouldn't need to do this but it doesn't rain here from May through October.
My electric bill was $180 -
for all of last year.
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Bizarroterl,
Where do you live? You have me rethinking solar electric. No rain from May through October is typical of the CA southern central valley to somewhere north of Sacramento.
For full disclosure on my bill I should mention that I keep my home closer to ambient than most people would be comfortable with. :wink:
However I have to acknowledge that your bill is enviable. Congratulations. I am waiting for someone to post that actually get cash back instead of a bill.
We have a 4.5kw array that was installed about 12 years ago. I maintain it myself. Every year I climb up on the roof (asphalt shingle) and wash the panels off. I wouldn't need to do this but it doesn't rain here from May through October.
My electric bill was $180 -
for all of last year.
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Bizarroterl - How much did that system cost to install?
Nick B. - For that $50,000 investment, how much energy does it produce for the home?
I'd be curious to see what gains folks are actually getting in climates that actually have some climate.
As much as I envy the SoCal guys and your climates, solar is certainly designed for your area. Plain and simple.
If I were you, I'd suck up as much sun as I could get.
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I guess one of the reasons I don't get solar is my last electric bill (mid Feb-mid March) was $63.60. The previous billing period it was cold and my bill was $104.95. My house is completely electric-no gas in my hood. Heat, A/C, hot water, everything is electric. I have a huge pool and run the pump a lot in the summer for the solar water panels.
When we have an extra cold spell in the winter or hot spell in the summer my bill might reach $125. The rest of the year it is in the $60 or $70 brackets. That makes it a long time for a solar system to pay for itself.
Are you kidding??? I was in a 2 bedroom apartment and our winter electric bill was $60+ and that was in 1983!
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From Hotair.com by Ed Morrissey:
"In 2009, the Obama administration approved a set of loan guarantees to Solyndra that totaled over $520 million, which supposedly would have created thousands of new jobs. Most of that money, $300 million, went to build a new manufacturing plant for the solar panels that cost more to build than the market price they could fetch."
Great use of taxpayer money. When do we the taxpayers ever get a bailout when there are no consequences for people who are always wrong. This is what happens when politicians think that they know better than the free market.
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We have a 4.5kw array that was installed about 12 years ago. I maintain it myself. Every year I climb up on the roof (asphalt shingle) and wash the panels off. I wouldn't need to do this but it doesn't rain here from May through October.
My electric bill was $180 -
for all of last year.
As Bob asked, how much was your initial investment? It kind of reminds me of the guy that bragged about how much money he won at the casino......
Hey, I want these technologies to bloom as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to invest in the 8-track tape recorder, if you get my drift (see how I tried to tie audio into the thread).
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The bigger question is, how big/small is your house, how efficient and well insulated, how many people live in it, and where is it located? All of that determines demand, and that the first question to ask.
Dropping solar on an energy-sucking house is not gonna work well.
Tubes or SS? THAT can make or break a solar system! :lol:
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I happen to be of the same mindset as Wayner and Nightfall. We (as a nation) have no business subsidizing any given industry just to promote a given product. The Government shouldn't be picking winners or losers. The free market should.
That said, I'm in the industry of selling energy efficient upgrades to (mostly) public entities. Here in the midwest, power is dirt cheap ($.075/kwh blended average for a small commercial user) coupled with our lower insolar values make paybacks on solar impossible without the extremely heavy federal and utility subsidies. Over the years, we've partnered with a few local PV providers on a few jobs but since the incentives have dropped off, fiscally, it is dead issue. I can't make it payback for my owners.
The other major issue I see coming down the the road is; most of these PV providers are offering a "full service" lease where they say they are going to provide periodic maintenance and repairs for the term of the lease (typically 15-20 years). Based on the install base here locally, there is no way on this earth that these companies can survive once the last of the incentives go away. New sales will be non-existent because of our cheap power. In turn, these companies will fold leaving my owners with no one to provide the maintenance as stated in their lease. Then, since crap flows uphill, the lessor (the banks) will be left holding the bag when the owners sue (or stop making payments) because they aren't receiving periodic maintenance per their contract. And just who bails the banks out for all this [potential] bad debt?
Sorta like deja-vu all over again, isn't it?
Speaking of deja-vu. We did this exact same thing back in the late 70s when Carter was in office. I entered this industry right at the tail end of that debacle.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"....Santayana
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I think subsidies are a little more complicated.
Everyone wants to wean us from those nasty "foreigners" who have the oil. Others demand that utilities supply power derived from 10-15-20% renewable. Nobody wants more nuclear plants in their "backyard." All of them have valid points.
The local electrical co-op, Ameren, PG&E, all fear massive demand when temps plummet or soar, so they give subsidies for people that invest in less-power hungry HVAC systems that reduce the utilities' need to generate expensive power peak power. Building new coal power plants is expensive and nobody wants the air pollution. In theory, that's part of the allure of solar, to reduce demand. Fair enough.
With advice from Scott F. :thumb: I just installed a high-SEER heat pump and have already seen my comfort go up and electric costs go down (if you don't count the $400 monthly loan payment I'll have for the next 5 years). Tough to swallow in the next 5 years, but a much better long-term investment. Especially when I retire.
Geothermal is also in the mix. The university where I work is sinking (literally) millions of dollars into geothermal for almost the whole campus. The long-term savings will be $1 million+ a year, and we don't have to replace an aging and very expensive power plant. And we do have solar houses on campus.
BP used to be the biggest producer of solar panels, now they are out of the business AFAIK. As in the 70's, all kinds of people jump into the market and just as in dot.coms, real estate, etc., there are booms and busts. Like the wild west, not everyone gets out alive.
Energy-star appliances are part of the effort to reduce demand. It's a way of reducing projected demand for power plants that nobody wants anyway.
How many of us have a 40-year-old fridge in the basement? VERY power hungry for little return.
I think we tend to micro-analyze solar instead of seeing it as part of the solution. In the train-wreck that is California I think it is quite valid. Missouri? Not so much unless you hate people enough to live far away from the power grid. :surrender:
And it's not just an economic decision. Tough to put a price tag on a solar system when you think it's the right thing to do.
Disclaimer: Long term I plan to put solar THERMAL panels on my roof. The plumbing is already in the attic.
I stand firmly on the fence on this issue! :lol:
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The bigger question is, how big/small is your house, how efficient and well insulated, how many people live in it, and where is it located? All of that determines demand, and that the first question to ask.
Dropping solar on an energy-sucking house is not gonna work well.
Tubes or SS? THAT can make or break a solar system! :lol:
I have a fairly new house with 6" thick walls and 2 feet of insulation in the attic. Insulation is a great avenue to pursue. I would love to have some kind of alternate energy source, but I can't even afford to get my new phono preamps to run on batteries (just kidding). I have just put in a 95.1% energy efficient natural gas furnace and a new A/C unit, so there will be some energy savings there. I also have been replacing some of the lights with LED and or CFLs where it makes sense.
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Not so much unless you hate people enough to live far away from the power grid.
I'll volunteer as I fit your criteria, but it's too expensive to live off the grid. :?
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OK, some details. The house is ~1700 sqft located in San Jose, CA. Up until a remodel we're just finishing it had the std early 60s insulation in the walls (2x4 fiberglass) and R35 attics. Windows were crappy single pane. We're dinks so just 2 people. We set the thermostat to 68 winter and 75/78 in the summer. AC & NG heat. I run a couple servers 24x7. The array is on the 2nd story roof facing south.
The initial price was $40K and we got ~$20K cash back from the state and ~$3K tax credit from the fed. I look at it as I bought a $20K car that never depreciates, requires no insurance, gas, upkeep, pays my power bill and I can't drive. Oh, and this car increases the value of my home.
It is a tie in system. Excess power is fed back into the grid. We have no batteries. The panels feed to inverters that then feed the house and back to the grid. The inverters aren't near as efficeint as those that are now available. We pay once a year (Feb) in a true up bill. So months that we use more than we generate get offset by those where we generate more than we use. If we generate more than we use for the year we don't get a check back and I doubt we would even get a thank you. I do pay an additional ~$5/month as a connect charge (included in our gas bill).
For us it is definitely worth it. Payback was some time this year. Occasionally I'll read that the power company is trying to raise electric rates and I don't care. There is a chance that some day they may stop the tie in program and if that happens I'll look into buying batteries and going off grid.
The remodel we're finishing added a couple hundred sqft and significantly improved insulation in about 1/2 the house. That with better windows will very likely mean our yearly true up will go to zero. I may never retire, but if I do I know I'll at least have free power.
Next year I plan on adding solar hot water preheat for our tankless. Probably have a huge payback period but I don't view it (or the solar) that way. I view it as well spent discretionary spending.
If you're seriously looking into a solar array the initial sticker should be less that what ours was. We installed ours before the chinese flooded the market with cheap panels. I see that a lot of the solar companies are offering leases. IDK if that's a good deal or not.
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Thanks for taking the time to explain how you're making the sun work for you. :thumb:
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I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......
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I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......
Short-term solution, Bob. He'll eventually move out, just about the time you are all bent over from arthritis and can't sweep your own walk. Or get to the bathroom on your own.
I hear your neighbors area taking up a collection so you can move off-grid, as far away as possible. Sounds like a win-win!
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:lol: Right on brother!
On an interesting side note....the banner at the bottom of the page here is now displaying solar panels. :duh:
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I had a a 6kw grid tied system installed 4 years ago when my electric bill was $4,000/year. Now it's under $100/year. Even though the cost of the system was much higher then, it still makes sense. With today's system costs, and higher electric rates, the payback period is even shorter, making it a no brainer. I will be dong another system soon on another property, and will probably do it myself, only hiring an electrician to do the final hook-up. This will make the cost about 75% less than before. I can't think of any better place to invest. A 100% ROI in 3 years is hard to equal in the stock market.
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I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......
Yea Bob, and we have documented proof of abusive child labor with you and your daughter. Pretending to be the good father when all the while you are training her to do all the future remodeling and repairs. You should be ashamed. :nono: Good luck. Awesome idea. :thumb:
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Were looking at a 3kw system for our new house build. System cost is approx 10k and about 5k out of pocket after local and federal rebates. We should have payback in as little as 3-5yrs. System will be readily expandable if we decide to add more panels.
I remember researching just a few years ago and system costs were about 20-25k.
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Deleted due to incorrect information.
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Get serious. Who would want to miss out on Audio Circle?
On the other side of the spectrum ( :roll: ), what is absolutely ridiculous is that it is illegal in some areas to live off the grid! Like it is here in Flagstaff. So much for the "independent" west.
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Does this (Costco solar panels) (http://www.costco.com/5170-Watt-Grid-Tied-Solar-Kit.product.11630267.html) seem like a fair price and how hard/expensive is installation?
Thanks,
Joe M.
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That's not a bad price fore that much solar, but I never heard of that brand of panels or inverter and I designed and installed solar system for over 20 yrs. So I would really check them out before buying.
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Get serious. Who would want to miss out on Audio Circle?
mikeeastman (above) lives off the grid and I met him through AC! :thumb:
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What's the practicality of installing a small array just to power a DC sound system? Would need to have batteries, I guess, since the grid isn't DC. Any comments about what that might require and how practical it would be?
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You would need 1 panel and a charge controller, the controller would be $35-40, the panel would be $90-200 depending on size of the battery and how much power the system uses. You would also want a backup charger for cloudy days, a Ctek or something similar. Some kind of mount for the roof or the ground or side of the house.
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Our payback time is between 8-9 years, depending on certain assumptions of course (electricity rates rising at 4%, amount of solar produced, etc.). Theoretically, that means we'll have another 12+ years of free electricity. Unfortunately, the power output of solar cells also decreases over time.
We invested in solar because we have a south-facing roof with an unobstructed view. Also, the town was selected for a special program, so the installer had special pricing. We ended up paying about $22,000.
Our next investment in the house is insulation. We're going to have the attic sealed and highly insulated (not using spray foam -- as I was afraid to use that), but using sealing of all holes through the attic, tons of insulation, etc. We also plan to have the basement insulated to "seal" the building's envelope. although we may not be able to do that this year. We're currently at 1273 gallons of oil for this heating season to heat this house, and that's too much. We're looking to reduce that.
Believe me, I think insulation is a great idea. I would've done insulation first, but they selected our town for solar, and the prices I thought were good. And we had saved more money for buying this house than I anticipated.
I should say that I've also invested in LED bulbs. Basically, the whole house is LED except for 5 ceiling fans (which use candelabra bulbs and neither my wife nor I can stand the light produced by the cheap candelabra bulbs).
Another option the solar provides is that when our AC units go, we could switch to heat pumps and get some heat for the winters from there. Assuming we make a surplus of electricity in the winter (and don't therefore have to pay for electricity for the heat pumps, since electricity here is so expensive), that'll also reduce our heating outlay. Unfortunately, because we have to change our air handlers, too, this is an expensive upgrade.
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Seal your attic from the rest of the house, NOT from the outside. Vent it well to keep heat down in the summer and remove condensation year round.
In my first house 40 years ago we could never cool the second floor; always too hot in summer. I put two of those roof turbines in and it made the second floor much more comfortable.
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That's not a bad price fore that much solar, but I never heard of that brand of panels or inverter and I designed and installed solar system for over 20 yrs. So I would really check them out before buying.
Thanks. I can't really find much about the brand but I trust Costco.
Joe M.
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Seal your attic from the rest of the house, NOT from the outside. Vent it well to keep heat down in the summer and remove condensation year round.
In my first house 40 years ago we could never cool the second floor; always too hot in summer. I put two of those roof turbines in and it made the second floor much more comfortable.
I'm using a local "green" builder whose specialty is green homes (including super energy efficient homes) and retrofits of old houses. The attic will be sealed from the inside of the house but not from the outside.
As for ventilating the attic, that's a whole argument that could go on for days. I put in a powered attic fan in my previous house, but I didn't have enough air intake and I sucked in air from the house. That's bad, as your cool air is going into the attic.
For this house, we'll be using "natural" ventilation (roof ridge and eave intakes) and a lot of sealing and insulation, so the house should be a lot more comfortable. One of the biggest upgrades is that they're going to build an actual, highly insulated "room" for the air handler that's in the attic. This alone should reduce heating and cooling costs.
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We invested in solar because we have a south-facing roof with an unobstructed view. Also, the town was selected for a special program, so the installer had special pricing. We ended up paying about $22,000.
Our next investment in the house is insulation. We're going to have the attic sealed and highly insulated (not using spray foam -- as I was afraid to use that), but using sealing of all holes through the attic, tons of insulation, etc. We also plan to have the basement insulated to "seal" the building's envelope. although we may not be able to do that this year. We're currently at 1273 gallons of oil for this heating season to heat this house, and that's too much. We're looking to reduce that.
Believe me, I think insulation is a great idea. I would've done insulation first, but they selected our town for solar, and the prices I thought were good. And we had saved more money for buying this house than I anticipated.
Bob,
You live pretty close by. Does Southbury have a solar program discount that you're aware of? Also, are you doing the insulation yourself or paying someone.
edit: I see you're using someone for the insulation.
Thanks,
Joe M.
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We average about 900 KWH per month for the year for electric with Central Air running all summer.
Gas bill is also pretty low for Heat, HW and Dryer. Less than $200 per winter months and $20-30 @month rest of the year.
Large house built in 1966.
We used NJ Clean Energy program a few years ago to heavily insulate the attic and basement and replace the boiler and hot water. Net cost was around $10k and that was covered by a 10 year 0% loan. Plus $1500 from the Feds on our tax return.
We also redid the upstairs windows but that did not do much to save energy. Insulation is the way to go for that
Setback thermostats and CFL bulbs in most fixtures. No second fridge in the basement.
My son bought a house a year ago with a huge solar array that was built by the prior owner in the backyard facing South. Way more panels than a rooftop system. He's paid $0.00 since moving in.
All over NJ I see solar panels going up in Parking Lots and front Lawns of Corporate and Public buildings. NJ has one of the highest amounts of solar production in the USA. There used to be state rebates for Solar but they seem to be gone now. Might be due to Gov Christie raiding the Clean Energy program of over $1 billion to balance the budget without "raising taxes".
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For this house, we'll be using "natural" ventilation (roof ridge and eave intakes) and a lot of sealing and insulation.
I agree with that 100%. Just wanted to make sure I was reading right. :thumb:
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Bob,
You live pretty close by. Does Southbury have a solar program discount that you're aware of? Also, are you doing the insulation yourself or paying someone.
edit: I see you're using someone for the insulation.
Thanks,
Joe M.
Hey Joe, the SolarizeCt program is selecting towns. Then, there's some kind of bidding process for vendors where the SolarizeCt program selects a vendor for a town, and the vendor gets to do the whole town.
Here's the website:
http://solarizect.com/
I seem to remember that your house would be a candidate for solar (need a south facing roof, ideally, with not a lot of trees).
For us, we're going to spend almost $6,000 this heating season for oil heat. Yikes!! I would've done insulation first, but they happened to select our town for solar.
As for insulation, I got three different quotes so far. Two of the quotes were from people who would spray foam the attic "roof" to create a sealed attic. They would also spray foam the rim joist (the area where your house walls meet the foundation), and do a few other things.
The third quote was from a green builder (builds green homes). What he'd do is different. He'd go into the attic and seal/insulate all possible air entry points between the second floor and the attic (stairs, recessed lights, etc.). He'd build a "room" around the air handler. We also have a closet that's basically in the attic. It's either cold or hot in there. There's also an access point to the attic in the closet. He'd put in an air-tight door and insulate the outside of the closet. Then, he wants to insulate basement walls and even the fireplace! He'd also air seal any outlets/other boxes on the outside walls. He'd then put in a ton of blown in insulation.
We selected the green builder because I was concerned about spray foam. They say if you don't perform spray foaming correctly, it smells and the only way to get it not to smell is to take it out. See these for instance:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/spray-foam-jobs-lingering-odor-problems
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/lawsuits-name-makers-spray-foam-insulation
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/community/forum/green-products-and-materials/14537/out-gassing-bad-stuff-spray-foam-insulation
There's also a potential problem with overheating of the shingles on your roof if you spray foam (since the spray foam is applied to the underside of the wood holding the shingles), but they've done tests for this and the shingles really aren't harmed (though this will void the warranty for some shingle manufacturers).
I understand the basics of how to insulate the attic, such as how to seal a recessed light. But it's way too much work for me. I'm having trouble just getting ceiling fans and the like installed (as I have to do this now before the blown in insulation covers everything). That's enough work for me! By the way, for the ceiling fans, I installed them an an air-tight box.
If you want any info about the people I've contacted (and I have more leads saved, too), send me a PM.
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We average about 900 KWH per month for the year for electric with Central Air running all summer.
Gas bill is also pretty low for Heat, HW and Dryer. Less than $200 per winter months and $20-30 @month rest of the year.
Large house built in 1966.
We used NJ Clean Energy program a few years ago to heavily insulate the attic and basement and replace the boiler and hot water. Net cost was around $10k and that was covered by a 10 year 0% loan. Plus $1500 from the Feds on our tax return.
We also redid the upstairs windows but that did not do much to save energy. Insulation is the way to go for that
Setback thermostats and CFL bulbs in most fixtures. No second fridge in the basement.
My son bought a house a year ago with a huge solar array that was built by the prior owner in the backyard facing South. Way more panels than a rooftop system. He's paid $0.00 since moving in.
All over NJ I see solar panels going up in Parking Lots and front Lawns of Corporate and Public buildings. NJ has one of the highest amounts of solar production in the USA. There used to be state rebates for Solar but they seem to be gone now. Might be due to Gov Christie raiding the Clean Energy program of over $1 billion to balance the budget without "raising taxes".
It would be nice to have gas, but we're too far out in the "boonies" to get gas. We can get propane, but that supposedly went sky high this year. Where I live, if you go over the amount of electricity you use, you get paid around 2 cents per kwHr (as opposed to being charged 16+ cents per kwHr), so the idea is to balance electricity production and output. I'm not sure how they do it, as we got a credit last month. I believe they wait some time period (a year?) to determine when to finally reconcile the account, as we're going to use more electricity in the summer than we produce and less at certain times during the year (spring, fall) than we produce.
I wish they had more incentives for insulation. As it is now, there are some incentives, but you don't have to make much money to not be able to use them. To me, it seems that insulation pays back more than solar, as it applies to both summer and winter, whereas solar really only applies to summer (unless you go heat pump) in New England.
I also looked into geothermal, but the prices were outrageous such that even with incentives, the payback was too long.
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To get back on topic, I've been reading Fine Home Building for a while. They basically say that windows don't really pay off. Even replacing single pane windows can be done without going to double pane and even if you went to double pane, it might not be worthwhile. Take my old house, for instance, which had R13 (max) in the walls. Double pane windows are way down the list of where to put money for that house -- more insulation/sealing in the attic will provide a much better return on investment.
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Speaking of insulation....I was contemplating that as I redo rooms in the house, demolishing the room past the point of mere paint. I was thinking about removing the drywall of exterior walls and replacing the rolled insulation with sprayed-in foam insulation. Granted, it's only one room at a time, but as I progress, the savings might build up.
Would it be worth it? (the house is 14 years old).
Bob
EDIT: Sorry...this is "technically" off topic of the solar issue, but reasonably helpful in the grand scheme.
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To get back on topic, I've been reading Fine Home Building for a while. They basically say that windows don't really pay off. Even replacing single pane windows can be done without going to double pane and even if you went to double pane, it might not be worthwhile. Take my old house, for instance, which had R13 (max) in the walls. Double pane windows are way down the list of where to put money for that house -- more insulation/sealing in the attic will provide a much better return on investment.
That's interesting, and timely info. I'm in the process of upgrading a rental house I bought last year and beginning to freak out a bit about the tab I'm running up. The house was built in 1976 and has the original aluminum frame double pane windows. I've been getting prices on replacements because of energy concerns and also because at least half of them have lost their seals and become cloudy. From what you are saying, I begin to think that windows can wait.
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Or at least install new (less expensive) single pane windows on some walls (walls where the sun doesn't beat down). :dunno:
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Or at least install new (less expensive) single pane windows on some walls (walls where the sun doesn't beat down). :dunno:
Builder's grade double pane vinyl replacement windows (most of mine are 60 x 48 sliders) only cost about $175 each. The install and trim can double that but, even so it isn't big money - for one window. I have 9 to consider in this place and my remodel bill will go over $20K if I replace them all. I'm thinking I might just do two bedroom windows right now and go after the others incrementally once I've brought my balance down below $10K. I have to consider how clearly my tenant will want to see the house next door.
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How cold does it get there? Do they even make single pane windows anymore? I do not recommend them. If you are going to spend the money for labor and trim, spend more and get double pane.
I have three large windows to replace but they require safety glass. OUCH!!!!
Or at least install new (less expensive) single pane windows on some walls (walls where the sun doesn't beat down). :dunno:
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I was thinking that double pane would be worth the extra money, since you're replaying them anyway....but if what Viggen says is true about "double isn't worth the money"...???
I would have never thought single pane would be worth the time and effort.
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To get back on topic, I've been reading Fine Home Building for a while. They basically say that windows don't really pay off.
-- more insulation/sealing in the attic will provide a much better return on investment.
I haven't read the Fine Homebuilding article but here is a link to a related article:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/study-shows-expensive-windows-yield-meager-energy-returns
I would agree - sort of. If your home has minimal insulation or in macrojack's case a rental - new windows would be a waste of money, let the renters suffer and pay the high utility bill.
But if you value comfort, which is hard to monetize, then get the new double pane windows. In my old house I wore a hoodie when sitting under a window because cold air rolled off the glass. Double pane windows also minimize frozen condensation melting and ruining the wood frame and sills.
I recently replaced all the windows in a 1950's house I now live in. My contractor said he no longer installs aluminum windows, they just don't perform as well as the fiberglass frame windows. We picked Marvin Integrity with Ultrex® Pultruded Fiberglass.
http://www.integritywindows.com/?gclid=CPfKtfec3r0CFY6Rfgode2UAvQ (http://www.integritywindows.com/?gclid=CPfKtfec3r0CFY6Rfgode2UAvQ)
With the Marvin windows there are no drafts and they are extremely quiet when closed. I live in the desert Southwest so went with the LoĒ3-366® option. When the sun hits the West windows and it's 110 degrees outside there is practically no heat gain. I also have an R49 of attic insulation and the block walls are outsulated with 1" high density foam so the inside temperature is very stable and comfortable.
My average electricity bill in the winter is $40/month, during the long Tucson summer my bill goes up to an average of $92/month. The A/C is a 14.5 SEER Tempstar Gas/Electric Unit.
Wayne
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Hmmm suddenly replacement windows is the ad at the bottom of my screen. Eerie... :)
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Yip, same here. :lol:
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We have this house rented to an elderly (even older than me) couple who will be moving in in early June. They plan to stay 3-5 years and my wife and I are planning to move over there when they leave. That's why we have been investing at an otherwise impractical level.
Wayne makes a good point about letting the tenants suffer. However, it probably won't be all that bad. According to Xcel Energy, my last tenants (also just 2 people) averaged $102/month for gas and electric during their 12 month stay. We can replace windows when we get closer to our own tenancy.
Something no one has mentioned about solar power and other energy considerations, is scale. Smaller houses are, all else being equal, cheaper to fuel. And energy upgrades are cheaper too if you need a smaller amount of say, insulation, roofing or siding.
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Something no one has mentioned about solar power and other energy considerations, is scale. Smaller houses are, all else being equal, cheaper to fuel. And energy upgrades are cheaper too if you need a smaller amount of say, insulation, roofing or siding.
My entire neighborhood was built in the 1950's, block construction on concrete slab, gable end framed roof - all the homes were built by skilled tradesman who took pride in their work and built to last. The houses all have the same basic floor plan but with mature plantings and various additions they now all look different. I have one of the few homes without an addition - 2 bedroom, 1 bath, 750 sq feet, that may seem small these days but an entire generation grew up in these homes so it's big enough for me.
I love the cheaper to upgrade part:
7 Marvin Integrity windows $3354
R30 blown insulation (over existing R19 batts) $650
Exterior foam insulation $1100
New HVAC (flexable ductwork, vents, Tempstar unit, installed) $7452
Wayne
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As I mentioned once before, Windows don't seem to make much difference re: energy savings. We did the whole upstairs because the house settled over the years and storm windows were a mess getting them up and down and the sashes would only stay up with a 2x4 in place. After a couple of winters there was no difference in gas/electric bills so I never upgraded the downstairs windows which were in better shape.
Insulating the attic floor was the way to go.
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Yep, plug the holes, then look for cheaper energy. Except for an unconditioned space (like a barn) I can't understand why anyone would buy single pane windows. Our Jeld-Wen windows have been great so far (no leaks, can barely hear the wind gusts). Most are fixed (we run A/C all summer due to allergies), but have strategically placed awning and casement windows.
We built an EPA 5 star, 2,200 s.f. 1 1/2 story house 10 years ago in southern Michigan with full basement (for a family of 5). Electric bills (oven, well, forced air furnace with A/C, other typical loads) runs $86/month for a now family of 3 (current rate is $0.13/kWH). We use 1,000 gallons of propane a year. As one of least sunny areas of the U.S., solar is out (but I did orient the roof to the south just in case of a breakthrough). Looked into wind, a 12 ft diameter on a 40 foot mast was $11,000 after taxes and would cover roughly 1/3rd of our bill (a 32 year payback) even though we're in a good location (for our area). Looked into geothermal, would cost $20,000 for additional insulation and equipment and total energy costs for comparable houses were only $50/month less (a 33 year payback). Frustratingly we are 400 ft from a natural gas distribution line but don't have enough demand in our small rural subdivision to get service (would save us $900/year and burn cleaner).
Have been interested in energy efficient housing since the 70's. The secret is no gaps (insulation from top to bottom including under the slab-on-grade), eliminating infiltration - leaks (windows, doors, sheathing, electrical boxes, can lights) and good design (staggered stud walls, SIP panels, ICF's, sprayed foam insulation, high thermal mass, passive solar orientation, LED lighting, etc.). With all that and learning to live in a much smaller house (not like me) you could easily achieve near zero energy bills without solar, wind, or geothermal.
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Frustratingly we are 400 ft from a natural gas distribution line but don't have enough demand in our small rural subdivision to get service (would save us $900/year and burn cleaner).
I built my house 400' from the end of the rural water supply, and it cost me about $8,000 for the utility company to continue the pipe to my house. About the same as it would be to dig a well.
Just sayin'....it might be worth you looking into digging a ditch and running some line.
Although, much like the multi-decade payoff of some of your other ideas, it might not be worth it the up-front cost.
Thing is, if you can get some near-by neighbors to help with the cost of that original 400', it would reduce your overall cost.
Bob
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Trying to keep an eye on this thread, but it seems to be tough to keep it on track.
Anyway. We have an all electric house and average a huge number of sunny days per year. I have a large sloping southern exposure roof as well as a southern facing slope that could accommodate a huge solar array. Seems like a no-brainer, right?
We've held off and will continue to do so until the technology matures and regulations change. First of all, the panels themselves lose efficiency very quickly and have a fairly limited lifespan.....but the thing that really pisses me off is how the Electric companies calculate rates regarding buying and selling of Kilowatts.
It's incredibly expensive to go completely off grid. The number of batteries you need to make it through several days of no sunshine is substantial, takes up lots of room, and adds a layer of complexity. The other option is the buy/selling game where you're tied into the grid and a meter keeps track of how much you produce vs how much you buy. The problem is the difference between those two prices is substantial and smacks of protectionism for the Utility Companies. I haven't checked recently, but a few years back, the difference was around 400% - RIDICULOUS!
When this difference is narrowed, solar becomes far more attractive. I'll be waiting until then.
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If you're in California you may want to recheck that for grid tied systems. I'm in CA and we only pay for the energy we used at the end of our "true up" year. We don't buy/sell back and forth. We just pay once a year for what we used (consumed - generated) at the rates at that time.
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I built my house 400' from the end of the rural water supply, and it cost me about $8,000 for the utility company to continue the pipe to my house. About the same as it would be to dig a well.
Just sayin'....it might be worth you looking into digging a ditch and running some line.
Although, much like the multi-decade payoff of some of your other ideas, it might not be worth it the up-front cost.
Thing is, if you can get some near-by neighbors to help with the cost of that original 400', it would reduce your overall cost.
Bob
The distribution line is high pressure, so would have to have a pressure reducing station. A 1/4 mile away there is natural gas service. Unfortunately our sub got built one house at a time (5 total), we were the last and everyone else had already invested in propane.
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Utility companies must cover 100% of peak demand (or suffer brown outs) and big power plants can't adjust quickly to varying demand. On average 70% of generated power is lost in transmission. Those two factors means that they have to generate about 10 times the power that is needed. And they're very much under the gun to be reliable in generation and distribution (a bigger issue where snow and ice storms add to wind storm damage).
So on-site power generation has potential. Solar is a nice fit because when the sun is out air conditioning demands are typically peaking. But the real answer is probably going to be with fuel cells (using natural gas or distilling water using solar power and storing the hydrogen).
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Anyone know about this?
http://www.bloomenergy.com
I remember seeing something about their per home unit on 60 minutes or something.
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I'm interested in solar, but I'm not sure it's feasible here. If someone has solar in the southwest area of PA, and is willing to give the details, I'd be grateful.
I have reduced my costs and carbon footprint in other ways. My biggest project so far was done eleven years ago when I installed a geothermal system to replace a forced air gas furnace and a whole house air conditioner. At the same time I added to the insulation.
The whole thing cost $15,000. For the 12 months just before the installation my utilities (except for water) costs were: gas, $1414; electricity, $1654. Costs for the 12 months after the installation were: gas, 0; electricity, $1786; a difference of $1282. (Part of the cost savings comes because the geothermal system also dumps excess heat into the water heater.)
Before I knew about geothermal, I had been planning to install a new gas furnace and air conditioner at a cost of about $8,000. So the difference in costs was made up in about six years.
(Besides the financial advantage, there also is the lack of worry about dangers associated with gas: CO and explosion. About ten years ago our gas water heater had a problem and we had a CO incident. Fortunately, we found the problem in time. That's when we went electric on the water heater.)
The system works very well. I set the thermostat for a lower limit of 72 degrees, and an upper limit of 76. Then I ignore it; the system automatic switches between heat and cooling as needed. Maintenance consists of replacing the air filter once a year. The only problem occurred a few months ago when the air blower had to be replaced (about $400).
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I was very interested in geothermal (still sounds like a great idea to me), until I heard of estimates of $50-70,000 to install. This is for a retrofit to an existing house with drilling into the ground to run the piping.
How did you get geothermal installed so cheaply? Are you using a water source such as a pond?
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I was very interested in geothermal (still sounds like a great idea to me), until I heard of estimates of $50-70,000 to install. This is for a retrofit to an existing house with drilling into the ground to run the piping.
How did you get geothermal installed so cheaply? Are you using a water source such as a pond?
Well, the cost depends on various factors, and your situation may be different from mine. One thing is the size of the house. Mine has just under 3,000 sq. ft. of heated space. A big factor is that my lot is 2 acres, so we didn't need to drill down. Instead we dug four parallel trenches about five feet apart, and each 60 or 70 feet long by about three feet wide and six feet deep. Each had about several hundred feet of plastic tubing coiled at the bottom (think of a slinky spread out sideways). They made a closed loop carrying plain water, with anti-freeze, connected inside the house to the geothermal device (which was about the size of the gas furnace it replaced).
Digging the trenches and laying in the plastic tubing is very much cheaper than drilling. I suppose there would also be a small inflation factor too. But it's important to search around for the right company. I got three bids for the job. One was lower than the company I eventually hired, but while questioning the guy I found he didn't know as much as I do about how they work. The third bidder wanted about $30,000. So there was a huge spread.
One suggestion: My device is called a Water Furnace, made by a company based in Canada. I'd think if you contacted them, they'd be willing to suggest qualified people in your area that handle their product. (Of course if you're limited to drilling you may be just out of luck.)
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I work at a university that is converting nearly all of our buildings to geothermal. I looked into a Water Furnace two years ago, but as you did with your driller, I didn't have confidence in the contractor. If I ask a question I want a precise answer. Didn't get it.
This is low-cost area of the country, and vertical wells were going to cost about $4K each if I remember correctly.
Ended up with a new heat pump for $17K with all the bells and whistles for clean air, humidity controls, piped-in music, you name it. Part if it was I didn't want a big landscaping mess, as the thin rocky soil of the Ozarks makes it is a bitch to grow a decent lawn.
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Is your unit an air-source heat pump that's located outside the house?
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Yep. Couldn't think of the "air-source" term while typing. :duh:
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Anyone know about this?
http://www.bloomenergy.com
I remember seeing something about their per home unit on 60 minutes or something.
Heard of them a couple of years back. Would be nice if it became reality and they could get a price that is reasonable. I had a house built which I closed on a year ago and moved into permanently a couple of months back. Had solar put in. Just paid the electric bill which was an $8.23 service charge and the month before it was $9.25 (and a pool pump runs for about 7 or 8 hours each day). I retired and it's nice to have limited bills.
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Over the last few years, I've replaced old single pane with efficient double pane windows, blown in cellulose insulation in the attics and exterior walls (with some spray foam here and there), and vinyl siding.
The vinyl siding had the most notable difference in monthly bills, I'm guessing because of the tyvek house sealing. It also has some rigid foam board insulation too.
Just my 2 cents.
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I had a a 6kw grid tied system installed 4 years ago when my electric bill was $4,000/year. Now it's under $100/year. Even though the cost of the system was much higher then, it still makes sense. With today's system costs, and higher electric rates, the payback period is even shorter, making it a no brainer. I will be dong another system soon on another property, and will probably do it myself, only hiring an electrician to do the final hook-up. This will make the cost about 75% less than before. I can't think of any better place to invest. A 100% ROI in 3 years is hard to equal in the stock market.
Update: My annual "True-Up" with PG&E (my electric utility company) is coming up soon, and I am $330 to the good this year. Before solar, my monthly was about $350+.
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I used to (briefly) be a certified building analyst. In an earlier life I worked 7 years in building supply sales and have seen both sides of the window discussion.
I understand the thought that replacement windows compared to less expensive weatherizing are not cost effective, but I suspect that assumes that replacement windows are installed by a contractor at who might try too upsell to dubious premium features.
OTOH I have resided two homes and took the opportunity to install new construction vinyl windows and am very happy. Fully taped, very quiet, no air infiltration, maintenance or warped frames. Off-the-shelf standard sized windows are not expensive for the DIY folks and I'm dubious about replacement windows since the frames and any pre-existing drafts are not addressed.
A decision on new windows should include intangibles besides cost. The data may show better use of limited funds or a better ROI, but I am very pleased with my vinyl windows, the first of which went in 20 years ago, and the last one about 15 years ago.
Edit: I believe vinyl siding has no energy benefit at all. If new siding helped energy consumption I'm sure it was the Tyvek and foam board installed at the same time.
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I wish those of you who have had solar installed would give those of us who are considering it a bit more information. such data as size (KW), cost, ROI, rebates and such, and what part of the country you live in. Knowing whether you live in Arizona or Seattle, for example, would help us put things in perspective. I'd be grateful.
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I wish those of you who have had solar installed would give those of us who are considering it a bit more information. such data as size (KW), cost, ROI, rebates and such, and what part of the country you live in. Knowing whether you live in Arizona or Seattle, for example, would help us put things in perspective. I'd be grateful.
Central FL East Coast. 8.6KW. The house came with solar water with electric back-up which is also part of the 30% residential energy credit - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf
The panel system (pic below - there are more panels on the back roof) is integrated into the roof tiles. The cost before any credits was about $43k. It will be less of course after credits. I'd imagine that it will save about $2k/year in electric costs so it may be a 13-14 year period before the costs are recovered in full.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=97858)
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Taking on a major remodel of a 50's modern house. Looking at PV panels for 3 carports and the roof of a guest casita. ROI is saying breakeven at 6 1/2 years for lower voltage model, about 10 for higher one. We're in S. Texas. We would save a little more because for the carports, the panels are actually part of the roof structure.
Freedom Solar Power: 12.19 kw, 814 sf, annual production estimate 17,712. $48k-$21k utility rebate-$14.6k federal tax credit=$13k.
15.04kw, annual 21,856. $75k-$25k utility rebate-$22,5 federal=$27,6k
Looks like the second one hits up against rebate limits, so breakeven is estimated to be 4 years later. At 20 years, you're only $7k ahead, so it seems to make more sense to go with the 12kw proposal. Does that make sense?
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Here's what the power output from my 11.5kw solar system looks like in CT for April 2014. It varies from about 3.6kwhr/day to 67kwhr/day. 838 kwhr this month so far, which should be more than we are using. Once we get to summer, the AC and pool pump will add way too much electricity usage and we won't be able to generate enough.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=97957)
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Here's what the output is for the month of April 2014 per solar panel. The panels on the right are on a second roof, and the darker panels on the right are blocked by the main roof at certain times, which is why they don't produce as much. For the left set of panels, the panels on the left are blocked by various items such as a chimney and trees (which will get worse, once the leaves come in). The gaps are caused by pipes that penetrate the roof at that point.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=97958)
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Taking on a major remodel of a 50's modern house. Looking at PV panels for 3 carports and the roof of a guest casita. ROI is saying breakeven at 6 1/2 years for lower voltage model, about 10 for higher one. We're in S. Texas. We would save a little more because for the carports, the panels are actually part of the roof structure.
Freedom Solar Power: 12.19 kw, 814 sf, annual production estimate 17,712. $48k-$21k utility rebate-$14.6k federal tax credit=$13k.
15.04kw, annual 21,856. $75k-$25k utility rebate-$22,5 federal=$27,6k
Looks like the second one hits up against rebate limits, so breakeven is estimated to be 4 years later. At 20 years, you're only $7k ahead, so it seems to make more sense to go with the 12kw proposal. Does that make sense?
My state had rebate limits at 10kw, but I believe federal has no limit. So, I had to pay more for the last 1.5kw (I have 11.5kw) due to no state incentives for that portion. I agree with you that the 12.19kw seems more reasonable. Our house is 4,100 square feet (we have an in law apartment that's at least 800 sf, plus she has one of our rooms adjacent to the in law for probably 1,000 or so square feet; the main house is about 3,000 square feet). I'm hoping with using LED bulbs and adding some insulation to come close to breaking even, although if we add heat pumps, I think we'll use more electricity than we generate (but less heating oil).
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Total cost: 40,400 (should be 41,400, but got $1,000 credit for being one of first 10 to install). Fed credit is 9498.06, state is 8739.79, total cost is 22,162.15 but I just got a rebate check of 2,300 (the installer met so many installations, so it lowered everyone's cost). Total cost is 19,862.15. Estimated return is about 8 years, depending on how much electricity costs increase (they estimate 4%/year, though I'm not sure that's a valid number). Guaranteed output ranges from 12,444 the first year to 11,313 the 20th year. They estimated an 8 percent ROI, though I don't know how they derived that number.
By the way, the fed credit is tricky. They had a "zero" percent interest program, but if you didn't pay within 18 months, it was 17%!! So, I just paid that off, which means I have to float 9,498.06 until April 2015, since we got installed in January 2014. I'll get that as a tax credit, but it's hard to lock 10k into nothing for so long.
The state credit goes directly to the installer. I never saw that money.
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Well, we may have purchased too large of a system. We've had the pool pump running (but no AC) and generated more electricity that we used last month. We have almost 900kWhrs in the "bank". I'm sure that won't last, as we'll be in AC season soon, perhaps this week. But we'll probably only have two months of AC.
We're having some ductless heat pumps added to put our in law apartment on heat and cooling and remove it from the oil heat. We hope to generate all the electricity in the winter to heat the in law, and this will save us about $1,000 in oil costs. We're going to transfer our two large AC units for the main house to heat pumps, also, to use more electricity. However, we're going to wait until they go. That may not be too long, as the attic air handler and the pool pump both went out this year.
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Would you happen to have any photos of the installation?