Heard the Mono Extreme's today

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Tyson

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Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« on: 12 Oct 2003, 06:23 am »
Went to Mike's (mgalusha) today to do a little headphone and headphone amp listening today and also got to do a little comparison between the digital amps Mike had built and the Extreme Monos that he has.  Mike, being an accomplished DIY modder has changed out a couple of caps on the mono's and re-biased it a bit, but otherwise they were pretty much stock.

We listened to the digital amps first, not bad.  Not great, but not bad, reminded me of my old Bryston 3B-ST's.  Put on the Mono's next  - hahaha the monos just destroyed them.  They sounded f-ing great!  WAY better than the dual mono I used to have.  In fact I would say that Mikes setup (Vandersteen's and Odyssey Mono's) now give my setup (RM40's and Van Alstine 550ex) a run for their money  :!: I still prefer my setup (I've got the 40's tuned to my exact preferences), but Mikes system was a HUGE improvement over the last time I heard it, and it can almost entirely be attributed to the extreme mono's.  Very impressive!

So, kudos Klaus, those are some killer amps you got there  :rock:

lonewolfny42

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Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #1 on: 12 Oct 2003, 11:05 am »
Tyson, What differences did you hear between the two systems, anything stand out ??  :D

speedcenter

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Re: Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #2 on: 12 Oct 2003, 03:53 pm »
Quote from: Tyson
 Mike, being an accomplished DIY modder has changed out a couple of caps on the mono's and re-biased it a bit, but otherwise they were pretty much stock.



Details, I need details  :D   My soldering iron has been cold for over a week now, and, well, I have never even thought of upgrading the Xtremes.

More bypass caps?  what kind? where?  

Just curious for now - I doubt I'd do anything to the amps for another few months until I get that second pair I've been dreaming about.

Peter

mgalusha

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« Reply #3 on: 12 Oct 2003, 04:55 pm »
Peter,

I replaced all the coupling caps with Black Gate NX and trimmed the bias to factory levels. I did let Klaus know I was going to experiment with my amps and assumed all risk if something went wrong and I fried something. I would certainly not expect Klaus to warranty a modded amp. My advice is don't monkey around with them unless you can afford to have them repaired if something goes wrong.

There are 4 coupling caps per board. So for a pair of mono's (Extreme or standard) 8 caps are needed.  In addition there is a 5th non-polarized electrolytic which appears to be part of the protection circuit for a total of 10. Since I was pulling the boards anyway, I replaced it as well. This is not a cheap operation. The caps needed were USD $13.95 each, with shipping this is $150.00 in parts.

As far as results, IMO it was well worth the cost and effort. What was already a very good sounding amp has risen to another level. Bass seems to be cleaner and tighter, the midrange is very smooth and the highs are clean and clear. Of course my description is undoubtedly biased, since I wanted the amps to sound better. :) I have had a few folks over recently who have commented that the system was sounding very good, so I am pretty certain the new caps were an improvement.


Mike

klaus@odyssey

Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #4 on: 15 Oct 2003, 08:19 am »
Hi Guys,

First off,  thanks Tyson for your remarks.  I have to give you props for being so objective and fair to us in the past, which I can't say for everybody here.  

There are a few issues in this thread which I like to address:

1.  I agree with your assessment of your dual mono.  For one,  when you sold it to James and we've had it back on the bench,  we found that the bias was 2 mV off.  With a higher than 120 V  voltage(which you probably had),  this can indeed make for some anomalies in the sound.  Call it grain or whatever, (also "warmer than normal") it will be there. The biasing is not so much an issue with Mosfet based amps,  but it's very important in bipolar designs, especially with the immediate impact on the offset of the amps.  In addition,  the unit had the older transformers and internal wiring, which also makes a difference.  This is part of what you hear at Mike's.

2.  Mike's improvements in the parts bin are actually part of the "full Gary"  mod.  Coupled with all the Sonicraft's etc.  the black gates make a very nice improvement indeed.  I've tried them on the regular amps,  and while I thought it's better,  the improvements didn't justify the cost to me.  After all,  it has to make sense for the price / performance issue and the overall value of the amps.

3.  Break - in.  Again and again and again.  Just as Mike said before,  after over 6 months,  the amps still improve.   I wouldn't go that far,  and have to put a more reasonable timing down,  but yes,  the longer the better.  Where does the unit stop improving ???  Beats me.  Lot of it is not so much the oh so often discussed "getting used to the sound" of the amp,  but probably more the fact that the body's involvement in music changes from day to day,  that the Ac quality is better at some days / times than others,  etc.  Nevertheless,  you all know that I get ridiculed by the same people over and over again in regards to the long break in time.  Just because these people have never experienced it and / or have other issues doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  There's no rational explanation,  and I can't offer one either for this phenomenon.  All I know is that nearly everyone of my customers experiences the same,  and that I've had this experience over and over again in 15 years of dealing with SL amps.  All you have to do is listen to a new amp, a 2 weeks old and a 2 month old amp side by side,  (which I did !!!)  and hear the difference.  As for any jerks out there that want to argue that no 2 amps are identical,  well,  ask Mike.  He measured a few of ours and can tell you about the ultra tight tolerances in the spec division of the amps.  
Andrebiasing the amp / checking the bias  after a few months of operation can really help.  Not always,  but sometimes.

4.  Anybody interested in any additional individual upgrades,  of course I'll do that for you guys.  AND I do that for the usual $ 20.  / hour rate plus parts and shipping.  However,  like I said before,  I'm somewhat on the fence on this one.

5.  As for anyone doing this by themselves:  no,  it doesn't void the warranty,  but I can  NOT be responsible for any damage or bodily harm,  of course.  

6.  Other than that,  I also have to say that the Stratos / Vandersteen match is a great one,  and that should be considered as well. (but so is the Stratos / VMPS combo).  Have I ever mentioned synergy???? :mrgreen:

Late,

Klaus

Whitese

Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #5 on: 15 Oct 2003, 08:57 pm »
20 bucks an hour?? that is cheap labour :o ...My Ford needs breaks!!

lonewolfny42

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Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #6 on: 16 Oct 2003, 09:05 am »
Quote from: Whitese
20 bucks an hour?? that is cheap labour :o ...My Ford needs breaks!!
If you've got a Ford , your gonna need more than BRAKES !!  :lol:

klaus@odyssey

Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #7 on: 18 Oct 2003, 09:04 am »
Yep,  $ 20./ hour.  That's part of our customer service.  For example,  if any of our REGISTERED customers makes a booboo that is not covered under the 20 year warranty,  then the worst case scenario is a total of $ 65!!!!

Same thing if a customer asks to do some custom job.  $ 20./ hour,  which covers my overhead.  It's a somewhat free service,  and I leave the rip offs to others,  hehehe.

Late

greve

Heard the Mono Extreme's today
« Reply #8 on: 18 Oct 2003, 03:19 pm »
Quote from: klaus@odyssey
Same thing if a customer asks to do some custom job.  $ 20./ hour,  which covers my overhead.  It's a somewhat free service,  and I leave the rip offs to others,  hehehe.


Klaus, some day, I would really like to see your company's financial statements - how do you make a living from this??? :?:  :?:  :?:

Never mind, it's your business and I guess you know what you're doing. I can't wait for my HT3 to arrive... :D