AudioCircle
The Commercial Zone => Audio Shows and Events => Rocky Mountain Audio Fest => Topic started by: Pez on 17 Oct 2011, 04:49 am
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It was a long tough haul this year. I thoroughly enjoyed covering the show for all of my Audiocircle family. The march was arduous and at times even painful, but despite that I can't think of any other experience which is more fun than RMAF.
I would like to give some general thoughts on where manufacturers succeeded and where they, almost universally, failed.
Every year RMAF setups seem to get better and better. This year was no exception. What I saw that most manufacturers really 'got' was most brought speakers that were appropriate to the size of the room. Maybe it's because they think people are more likely to buy 'budget' grade equipment with the way the economy is. I'd like to think the real reason is because they realize the limitations for what they need to accomplish which is to create a lasting impression of a brand. Big speakers in a small room almost universally = epic fail.
Manufacturers as a whole were very friendly and easy to talk to. I made many new friends this year and about half of them were indeed manufacturers of high end wares I will never ever be able to afford. The AMR crew, First sound crew, Bolder cables, and Daedalus crew took some of us to dinner on friday and we had a blast. Thank all of you for that experience. Roger and Marco from YG acoustics actually took the time from their incredibly busy schedule to do dinner with us AC peons at Shannehans steakhouse and we had the time of our lives.
Many manufacturers showed an immense interest in what we thought of their setups and were very open to constructive criticism. In the AC manufacturers it was UNIVERSAL that they asked our opinions and were open to constructive criticism. And not just from us. I witnessed many manufacturers seeking the same information from many people in the room. This is what these trade shows should be about. Learning about your target audience. And target audience learning about your company.
That last point segues into my number one irritation of the show. There seems to be this nasty subculture of prickdom in audiophila. Especially prominent in the cost no object room. Often in these rooms you walk in and you are shushed, glared at, or ignored entirely. The worst offender by far was the VTL room. They were rude, dismissive, and quite honestly are the kind of people that ruin this hobby/pursuit for many people. It's intimidating enough to walk into a room with equipment that costs more than my condo and every other person who lives in my building COMBINED. It's even worse when you have some blow hard glaring at you and saying "SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!" when you are whispering to your friend about how amazing the equipment is. They were not the only ones. Quite a few rooms in the Mezzanine had the same air of superiority. And often with no cause. Their systems are commonly among the worst performers.
Edit: Also these rooms rarely if EVER let you play your own music. They select the music that they think is good and they disallow any other material. I understand if a room is vinyl only, or if there is a music server of some kind that makes it difficult to download a CD. But in rooms where the equipment is capable, there is no excuse for that. One example is the Nordost room. They make 2 mistakes along this line. First they play one song and it sounds like garbage through their low end cables, then they play the same song through a mid-grade set of cables and it sounds like slightly more warmed over garbage, then they put in their uber cables and the system (low and behold) sounds listenable. This ridiculous process caters to those who already are cable converts so to put everyone through this process is unnecessary, but further more it completely eliminates the opportunity for those who brought their own tracks to listen. Again there are exceptions of course like Ray Kimber, his system is specifically put together to listen to isomike recordings. Using other material would just be silly.
Next point: Manufacturers here me now! Every trade show has shitty power coming out of the wall. Every trade show has bad echoey rooms, every trade show has limited time to setup, every piece of equipment needs break in. To use any of these as valid reasons as to why your room sucks or doesn't perform up to what you believe it should is stupid.
First lets address the room. Maybe 30% of manufacturers use real room treatment. And no, ferns, couch pillows, or a big fat dude standing in the corner do not count as room treatment. There is a false belief among many manufacturers that their speakers are so good they shine even without treatment. Nothing could be further from the truth. almost 95% of the rooms I visited had terrible bass bloom, shoutiness at higher SPLs and a general lack of definition. All of which could be cured by real room treatment.
No self respecting audiophile would ever say that room treatment doesn't improve the sound in their system. Many audiophiles can't do room treatment for one reason or another and that is understandable. However I strongly believe that anyone would agree that room treatment is the ideal.Yet I heard from many manufacturers that their speakers don't need room treatment... And they were serious. In my opinion no manufacturer should complain about echoey rooms with boomy bass ESPECIALLY the ones who make such claims. It only makes you look bad.
Edit: Even worse is when there is no room treatment like in the German Physiks room, yet there are Magical Doohickys that channel the inner demons out of the sweet spot. (note: these little conical dots were on the walls and ceiling and the mystery boxes on stands hiding slightly behind the ferns, those are supposed to do something very quantum order as well.)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/4eb5a47a.jpg?t=1318796572)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/6bee5318.jpg?t=1318796854)
Edit: Now I'm not knocking metaphysical stuff in audio. In fact I applaud it, but if you're going to put this stuff in your room and claim it does great things to your setup at least make sure you have covered the fundamentals like speaker placement and insuring your speakers are properly stabalized by your carpet spikes. :duh:
"the ______ aren't fully broken in so there's a bit of glare" Absolute dumbest thing you can say as a manufacturer. Look I understand that things happen. The Empirical room had a tweeter go out on the YG acoustics setup, that was odd and neither YG or anyone else were responsible for it happening. They fixed the problem and made a system that sounded among the best in the show. For other manufacturers complaining that their system was 'not fully broken in' why would you bring equipment that isn't ready for prime time? And if you're distributors, you need to have a long hard talk with your manufacturers about sending you equipment that isn't broken in. This is not ok. Odyssey's speakers were honestly not fully broken in, but Klaus made the call that they were good enough to bring to the show. I would say that's a ballsy call and from what I heard he was right to bring them. Yet he didn't use them not being broken in as an excuse for any short comings. Perceived or otherwise. Good on him.
Last bit of info I want to discuss is opinions. Last year was the first year Tyson and I decided to give our honest assessment of what we thought of these rooms. We got a lot of flack, but then many other people posted their impressions, often impressions that were in direct conflict with ours. This is the nature of audio! it is subjective. I know what I like. I know what I don't. I don't know what you like and I can't listen with your ears. So please keep in mind that we give our impressions, not necessarily the one you want to hear.
I want to convey a bit of gratitude to everyone I met for making this experience so wonderful.
To those following our live coverage; rooting us on actually gave us the will power and strength to push forward beyond our exhaustion. We really wanted you all to experience the way we feel getting the opportunity to come here and see all these great people and great equipment. My only regret is that we could not possibly get to every single request. There were many I would have loved to get to myself, but every year this show gets bigger and bigger. I estimate we saw maybe 40% of the show. That said, I hope our inability to get to everything gives people reason to come to Colorado! I hope our coverage served to incentivize our fellow ACer's to get out and see it for themselves and to come say 'Hi' to us at the show.
Last sappy part, I want to say to Tyson, dude you are my best friend. Every year we go to this show I look forward to it and afterwards look fondly on the great time we had together. I couldn't have done all this great coverage without you, nor would I want to! RMAF is what it is because of the fun we have.
Peace out!!! :thumb:
Tyson Here
I'm tacking this onto Jason's thread because, well, I can ;)
OK, here's my final thoughts on the show. Kickin' it for 3 days with Pez in an audiophool's heaven is one of the highlights of the year for me. Pez is my best friend too, but I'm not sure how much that counts when you consider that he's my ONLY friend
As for the show, here's my few thoughts, after having been to several of these in a row now.
1. The playing field is level. When we walk into a room, there is just as much chance for it to sound good as any other room. We've had several rooms that sucked one year and kicked @ss the next, and we report it exactly like we hear it (ie, YG, Focal, AMR). Other rooms go the opposite direction (Dynaudio, Hansen, Merlin). Others are consistently great (GR Research, Fritz, Daedalus, JH Audio), and others are consistently bad (single driver speakers, OTL's, Nordost).
2. The show gets BETTER every year. It's funny, I look back and I see us posting each year "This is the best show EVER!" Then the next year we say, "No, THIS is the best show EVER." But it's true, every year the overall quality of the rooms improves, and sometimes dramatically.
3. People who let you play your own music rock. People who don't, suck. How can anyone evaluate your system with music they've never heard before. I know it's a pain, and lots of (other) people have really questionable taste in music, but it's perhaps one of the few times they will EVER have to hear your gear. Give it up for 5 minutes!
4. This one is for the attendees - most of the time you are super cool. But don't hog the f'ing sweet spot. Unless you are buying a piece of gear, right now, today, then get the f' out and let other people listen too. 2 minutes, I love you. 5 minutes I like you. 7 minutes, OK move. 10 minutes or more? I'm taking that 20 pound aluminum CD remote control away from you and beating you with it.
5. RMAF is worth attending for the after-hour parties in the manufacturer rooms alone!
6. This is a hobby of introverts. Everyone is hyper the first day or 2, and completely zonked by the 3rd, from having to actually interact with other human beings for more than 48 hours at a stretch.
7. Tool causes schisms. Over 40, and you clear the room. Under 40 and you ask "Who was THAT?"
8. There's not enough hot show babes. Really, if we want to be taken seriously at a national level, we need a lot more hot show babes, preferably asian.
9. Room treatment. Yes you need it. Yes it's a pain. No, your room won't be it's best with out it. Contact Brian Pape on this forum if you can't figure it out yourself and need help. Even giving out copious amounts of free beer or scotch will not make up for an untreated room.
10. Pez is da man! Seriously, he carries around a heavy ass camera with a giant flash to get you all these killer pics, and an ipad to upload everything in real time. And he NEVER stops working, the whole show. And he never complains. Oh wait, yes he does. Constantly. But then I b!tch slap him and he meekly starts uploading more photos.
SAN DIMAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well said.
-Jared
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Pez said:
a big fat dude standing in the corner do(es) not count as room treatment
Why, Pez, I thought I made a BIG difference in the room ambience.
:green:
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkriR3FL0ZlkYlQwGORz_umYkEkKANreCKkOsnnfFP0aX_6rlHUQ)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZT0MZ3lvZyzC__RJFfgGbom2y7ZKnboC51IUufJPKll67qFRM)
Good work, Pez.
It was much appreciated by all the AC members.
Lyndon
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:thumb: :thumb: to Pez and Tyson! We owe you a big thanks. If ever you are in San Francisco, give me a shout or maybe we can meet in Denver in the future. And above all else, Thanks for the honest opinions..that's what I love the most about AC. We don't have to be politically correct here!
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Wow, all that coverage and you guys only saw 40% of the rooms? That's crazy. You did an excellent job balancing the affordable with the unobtainable. In general, I prefer to see product in my price range, but who doesn't have a weakness for loudspeakers and electronics that cost more than their house? I know it was a PITA, but I really enjoyed the rapid-fire updates instead of the once-daily "mega dumps" you typically see from these shows. It was very much appreciated. Great job guys!
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You had me at "epic fail".
Good job guys. Maybe next year we break it up so you only have to do a 4 hour block and have more contributors so you can enjoy the show yourselves.
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I can see why you two are best of friends. Your banter is hilarious! I can't imagine you two NOT having fun! Thanks a million guys!!!!!!!!!
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Pez great final thoughts.
I said allot of the same in another thread in relation to a show called "Taves". This was a Toronto show that took place a while ago.
I heard endless excuses which just left me scratching my head :scratch: and in the end made no sence.
Thanks to both of you! :thumb:
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You guys rocked it. This is the best show coverage and I really liked the real time element this year. :thumb:
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I'm glad to see somebody has the balls to say what pricks some of these people are!!! Good job guys. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Pez, great job on the show coverage. I was there for all 3 days and I couldn't agree more with your assessment.
In some rooms they greeted me and said "what would you like to listen to?". In others they controlled everything and played horrible world music which usually meant about 1 note per hour. Huh?
In the room with the small Daedalus speakers we played our CD which sounded amazing and the vendor asked us if he could have the CD for the rest of the show. Now that is someone paying attention to the customer.
All in all it was a fun 3 days.
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Hi Pez
I do want to thank you for your wonderful coverage. I missed attending this year. It was so refreshing to hear genuine opinions on what you heard in the rooms. The politally correct press coverage seems so dishonest by comparison. I certainly agree with your assesment regarding the need for proper planning if you are going to actually display in a hotel room. I have been there and the power is indeed a joke :lol: if we are lucky enough not to lose it all together.
As far as room treatments, without them you are left to the mercy of the room which is pretty merciless in most cases. You would think that when someone pays BIG money to display in one of these rooms that they would actually want to demonstrate their wares in the best possible light. We all know that common sense does not always prevail.
I think our hobby already suffers enough in our own homes without proper treatment. I have seen this happen all too often in many private listening rooms where the cost of the equipment is huge and the actual performance is mediocre or downright poor. I truly believe a modest system in a properly treated room will ALWAYS perform better than a much more expensive system in a poor or improperly treated room.
I do need to comment on the "little black boxes" and the "round doohickeys" on the walls. I immediately recognized those as Stein Music "Room Harmonizers" and the accompaniying "Diamonds". I have them in my own room and I can truthfully say the are indeed a room accoustic treatment and that they work extrely well. They are the real deal. They are expensive. They are controversial because the technology is not easily explained or even understood. They work wonderfully with other room treatments. They make a VERY audible difference that is easily demonstrated by removing them from the room. They are not leaving my room.
Thanks again. Next year I hope to be there. I will try to find you and thank you in person.
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All i have to said is,Your Guys are the Best :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:,don't expect Xmas cards from those guys.
lapsan
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So nice to come home from a camping trip and have such a nice organized few threads to review and catch up on, as opposed to sifting through many for the goods! Good stuff guys!
I would like to see others that were in attendance, maybe 'reply/quote' from any given rooms original posting and give their opinions as well... I would hate to think the great coverage from Pez and Tyson is holding others back from posting their thoughts...
Crazy to hear y'all think you only heard/saw 40% of the show... It must be bigger than I imagined...
Thanks!
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Thanks to Pez and Tyson for a very enjoyable and informative tour of RMAF. I was checking back in every few hours to follow you and greatly appreciate your efforts.
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Pez, thanks for the beautiful and funny trip and the work it took. That goes for Tyson, too. And the summary, don't know how you have any energy left.
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Crazy to hear y'all think you only heard/saw 40% of the show... It must be bigger than I imagined...
It is........that's why more of you fellows need to go...you'll have a great time, and see and hear some excellent equipment. :thumb:
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First lets address the room. Maybe 30% of manufacturers use real room treatment. And no, ferns, couch pillows, or a big fat dude standing in the corner do not count as room treatment. There is a false belief among many manufacturers that their speakers are so good they shine even without treatment. Nothing could be further from the truth. almost 95% of the rooms I visited had terrible bass bloom, shoutiness at higher SPLs and a general lack of definition. All of which could be cured by real room treatment.
No self respecting audiophile would ever say that room treatment doesn't improve the sound in their system.
Hi Pez, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Wish you could have made my untreated room. My perspective is that a heavily treated room shows an alarming problem with the acoustic sources, or a preference for the sound of "stereo", rather than any semblance of the real thing. I challenge anyone who prefers that presentation to attend some live music (perhaps for the first time) with me and point out any of those stereo construct attributes. I remarked to Gary Gill at CapFest (at the band playing), that it should have been mandatory for all exhibitors to attend the live show in the lobby, not to hear john Atkinson on bass (not too shabby), but to hear real instruments for the first time, not emanating from a stereo...and point out that pinpoint/ultra precision studio construct imaging. It might be a real ear opener for many, to hear the real thing. :wink:
To each their own of course. Not going to tell you which to prefer.
That last point segues into my number one irritation of the show. There seems to be this nasty subculture of prickdom in audiophila. Especially prominent in the cost no object room. Often in these rooms you walk in and you are shushed, glared at, or ignored entirely.... And often with no cause. Their systems are commonly among the worst performers.
(http://isthatcoffee.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/smug.jpg)
cheers,
AJ
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I would like to see others that were in attendance, maybe 'reply/quote' from any given rooms original posting and give their opinions as well... I would hate to think the great coverage from Pez and Tyson is holding others back from posting their thoughts...
That is an excellent idea! I will post this in all the other threads! :thumb:
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It is........that's why more of you fellows need to go...you'll have a great time, and see and hear some excellent equipment. :thumb:
Good to meet you btw. Glad you stopped in. You still left me with an excess of beer, but the pic made up for it :lol:
cheers,
AJ
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Thanks....enjoy the tunes AJ.... :thumb:
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Thanks for the coverage. I am sorry to see this show turn into just another main steam high end show. I thought the initial concept was that of promoting DIY and the smaller guys?
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Thanks a lot guys,
Like I said before, we were a bit in Denver too.
Cor
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Hi Pez, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Wish you could have made my untreated room. My perspective is that a heavily treated room shows an alarming problem with the acoustic sources, or a preference for the sound of "stereo", rather than any semblance of the real thing. I challenge anyone who prefers that presentation to attend some live music (perhaps for the first time) with me and point out any of those stereo construct attributes. I remarked to Gary Gill at CapFest (at the band playing), that it should have been mandatory for all exhibitors to attend the live show in the lobby, not to hear john Atkinson on bass (not too shabby), but to hear real instruments for the first time, not emanating from a stereo...and point out that pinpoint/ultra precision studio construct imaging. It might be a real ear opener for many, to hear the real thing. :wink:
To each their own of course. Not going to tell you which to prefer.
**snip**
cheers,
AJ
But on the same token, just because it is real and life doesn't mean it sounds good. While I agree I don't think vendors need to cover every wall with stuff, but all I ask is take the time to set up your room to get the BEST sound out of your system you possibly can, given the circumstances. Don't do nothing simply because "I am brand xyz and my stuff doesn't need acoustic treatment". We aren't looking for smoke and mirrors, just a vendor that is willing to address the areas that need to be addessed to show their product in the best possible way.
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My favorites of the show: No particular order except #1. Hands down my favorite of the show this year
1. TAD with the CSR1's
2. GR Research
3. Fritz Speakers
4. Estelon
5. VR44's
6. Salk
My least favorites included:
Tidal
Magico
VTL/TAD
Zu (I really wanted this to be better, but this one just made me run. Last year I loved the Superfly room)
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thanks Pez & Tyson for all your efforts.
I first met Pez & Midwest Audio fest in Lima.
Great guy & I miss the smaller show camaraderie...
such as the old VSAC shows. Great Guy.
I agree with some of your Show Condition caveats.
Yet like AJinFLA sometimes a nice room set-up won't
always need lotsa Fiberglass batting...as Floyd Toole
has written about.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt1.pdf
Unfortunately this is the 1st RMAF I missed...family issues.
these are great shows for education, entertainment & enlightenment.
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AJ we will most definately agree to disagree on that point. It is the job of the recording engineers/producers to make a recording lively sounding or not. In your scenario the system sounds lively no matter what. And every single system in the untreated rooms sounded splatty and shouty at high SPLs due to overloading. I doubt your speakers were any different honestly, but I will save my brutally honest opinions for when I actually hear your room. :wink:
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Jason & Tyson, thanks again for the massive effort. As you say, no way to see and hear it all so even for those are can attend, your coverage is invaluable.
A thought for the exhibitors that show ever year. Spend a few hundred bucks on some lumber and build a mock up of the room and figure out how to make your stuff sound good in that space. I know some can't do this, particularly those who are borrowing speakers from another vendor but ask that vendor to at least take the room dimensions into account. The rooms certainly don't change size from year to year and the dimensions are posted on the RMAF website with the exception of the ceiling but I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to find this info. Just a thought...
mike
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I agree totally with Pez about the room treatments at the show; far too few. And for the exhibitors and listeners who doubt that, you didn't spend enough time in modest rooms with modest equipment that sounded killer, I'm almost sure because of room treatments. Puget Sound Studios rooms were good examples, with $2500/pr (inc. stands) Evolution MM Micro 1's in one and $5000/pr Usher mini-Dancer II's in the other, both of which sounded like giant-killers (which they probably are , but I doubt to this extent).
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I'm definitely not an analog guy, so I was glad to see so many good digital front-ends, especially the computer based ones. I don't do that yet, but it's sure a good tool for both the exhibitors and the listeners.
I did think there were many many great sounding analog sources also, both reel and vinyl. I did post earlier about my disappointment with the VTL room, which had what should have been great sounding tape and vinyl, but overall just didn't deliver. It sounds like I wasn't alone in this opinion.
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My favorites of the show: No particular order except #1. Hands down my favorite of the show this year
1. TAD with the CSR1's
2. GR Research
3. Fritz Speakers
4. Estelon
5. VR44's
6. Salk
My least favorites included:
Tidal
Magico
VTL/TAD
Zu (I really wanted this to be better, but this one just made me run. Last year I loved the Superfly room)
I would absolutely agree with the least favorites here, if by that one means most disappointing. I didn't hear GR Research or Fritz, but I would add von Schweikert, Salk and Estelon to that "disappointing" list.
Odyssey was impressive, and the Rosso Fiorentino speakers pictured but not named above were an impressive debut. mbl sounded quite good in a terrible room. Only the biggest YG's sounded half-way decent to me, and they were clearly too big for the room, so I'm really not sure what to make of that company.
Sonus Faber had a lot of good sounding models present.
The TAD room sounded really good, but it wouldn't be my choice for best in show. Definitely a contender, though.
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I would absolutely agree with the least favorites here, if by that one means most disappointing. I didn't hear GR Research or Fritz, but I would add von Schweikert, Salk and Estelon to that "disappointing" list.
Odyssey was impressive, and the Rosso Fiorentino speakers pictured but not named above were an impressive debut. mbl sounded quite good in a terrible room. Only the biggest YG's sounded half-way decent to me, and they were clearly too big for the room, so I'm really not sure what to make of that company.
Sonus Faber had a lot of good sounding models present.
The TAD room sounded really good, but it wouldn't be my choice for best in show. Definitely a contender, though.
I have to agree, TBH I was disappointed with the Salk room in that I expected it to be better than that. I love Salk Sound and they are arguably my favorite and I will eventually own a pair...but I did find the room to be a bit lackluster this year.
Thanks for your comments
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The two sentiments I've noticed as most prevalent here are praise and gratitude for the efforts of Pez and Tyson -- and the negative feelings generated by the VTL room.
I can second the praise and gratitude but have to just shake my head in wonder at the shortsightedness and stupidity reflected in VTL's attitude.
Ben Franklin famously said that you will attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Looks like Ben was right this time. The flies are buzzing.
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The Usher Mini-Dancer II's (Room 8000) are a very good speaker...more people should give them a listen. :wink:
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I would absolutely agree with the least favorites here, if by that one means most disappointing. I didn't hear GR Research or Fritz, but I would add von Schweikert, Salk and Estelon to that "disappointing" list.
Rob, I went back to the Salk/Van Alstine room on day 3 and the sound was completely different. Frank told me that the speakers were brand new and needed to be broken in. He was right. They sounded much better on Sunday.
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But on the same token, just because it is real and life doesn't mean it sounds good.
Of course not and that isn't what I said. It's all preference. Some people love the sound of stereos and others strive for fidelity to reality.
While I agree I don't think vendors need to cover every wall with stuff, but all I ask is take the time to set up your room to get the BEST sound out of your system you possibly can, given the circumstances. Don't do nothing simply because "I am brand xyz and my stuff doesn't need acoustic treatment". We aren't looking for smoke and mirrors, just a vendor that is willing to address the areas that need to be addessed to show their product in the best possible way.
Who gets to define "BEST"?
Which is more likely to sound better in your room or room X, the speakers that interact well with an untreated surrounding and manages to sound "good", or the speakers that needed a padded cell to sound "good"?
I don't disagree with you that vendors should attempt to coax the "best" sound possible from their system. It's just that one mans definition of "best", may not exactly meet another. Agree?
cheers,
AJ
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AJ we will most definately agree to disagree on that point. It is the job of the recording engineers/producers to make a recording lively sounding or not.
Sure...and it's my job to make that recording please me, the end user, not the engineer (or whatever the "intent" may have been). So if the engineer made it unbearably bright, guess what, I turn the treble down, the engineers/producers be damned. :wink:
As Tooles perceptual research has shown, the rooms superimposition upon the sound in not necessarily detrimental, despite the recordings inherent reverberation, due to perceptual adaption. Interesting results occur when the treatment crowd are asked for preference when forced to listen with ears only (blind) :). Btw, I prefer the descriptor "live" instead of "lively", which has a subtly different meaning.
And every single system in the untreated rooms sounded splatty and shouty at high SPLs due to overloading.
Ah, but what percentage was the room and what percentage was the system overload contributing to the "splat"?
I doubt your speakers were any different honestly, but I will save my brutally honest opinions for when I actually hear your room. :wink:
Only one way to find out :green:...and it's the only way you would hear my system, there, Capfest...or elsewhere.
Maybe I just didn't have Tool cranked up loud enough :lol:
Though I doubt anyone would say I played the Eric Kunzel stuff too softly.
Anyway, sorry to threadjack...on with the actual show. So much to see/hear, so little time....
cheers,
AJ
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Rob, I went back to the Salk/Van Alstine room on day 3 and the sound was completely different. Frank told me that the speakers were brand new and needed to be broken in. He was right. They sounded much better on Sunday.
No excuse for this. The show date has been known for nearly a year. :duh:
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Thanks for the fantastic reports!
I also thought the Salk SoundScape 12s sounded less warm than my 10s. I don’t know if it was the room or electronics or what? I did like the ease at which they played. Maybe it was because the 12s are more efficient than the 10s and Frank’s amp is more powerful than my DNA 225s.
I thought the SongTowers sounded great with Frank’s ultravalve.
Bob
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Rob, I went back to the Salk/Van Alstine room on day 3 and the sound was completely different. Frank told me that the speakers were brand new and needed to be broken in. He was right. They sounded much better on Sunday.
I also spent about 10 minutes (I know, not that much time :? ) in the AVA/Salk room on Sunday. The speakers were clearly better than on Friday, but by Sunday I had heard many more excellent sounding rooms, and my overall impression was still one of disappointment.
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No excuse for this. The show date has been known for nearly a year. :duh:
Maybe the Salk speakers were a new design and they weren't ready for prime time until very recently. I don't know the details. I only know what I heard.
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I enjoyed Pez and Tyson's coverage and agree with much of what they said about the sound in the rooms. I can say this though, every room I went back too sounded better on the second day, some sounded much better on the third day. Some of it was equipment break-in from being new, some of it was from the digital sources. I have listened to too much digital, and even if the Dacs are fully broken in, it take 24-48 hours before it starts to sound the best again after being turned completely off. Almost all the rooms failed on the first day IMO, maybe 3-5% actually was great. Even the top YG-Tenor system was lacking on the first day, but it was the best of the show on the last day.
My biggest disappointment was the MBL room. I have been a huge fan of MBL's since 1980. I strongly believe MBL makes the best systems in the world. First day was horrendous, 2nd day was not too much better, the third day the system was incredible. If the show had had a few more days, this might have been my #1 choice. MBL admitted everything in the room was brand new at the show.
MBL never shows with room treatments, this shows their speakers never needs it. That is probably where I disagree with Pez the most, I prefer a good system in a non-treated room. And on the last day, there were many rooms at RMAF that sounded wonderful while using no room tratments.
And if anyone here thinks putting your personal great sounding systems in one of these hotel rooms is so easy, then try it sometime. I tried it at the LSAF last year, and my great sounding system at home sounded horrendous the first 24-30 hours. It is not that easy.
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I'd LOVE to add to Pez and Tyson's coverage by cataloging the actual room measurements and then add the measurement to the posts that they have. I'd bet they would get close as they know good and bad. It would also be fun to do AFTER everyone has posted so you too could see if you hear what's REALLY happening.
Of course this could only happen if the room agreed.
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Tom, don't understand how that could be a matter of just breaking in, or even placement for that matter. I would think that a speaker manufacturer, in particular, would take care that everything upstream of them and their placement would be complimentary on day one. What am I missing?
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I'd LOVE to add to Pez and Tyson's coverage by cataloging the actual room measurements and then add the measurement to the posts that they have. I'd bet they would get close as they know good and bad. It would also be fun to do AFTER everyone has posted so you too could see if you hear what's REALLY happening.
Of course this could only happen if the room agreed.
Majority of the rooms are small, 12x15, maybe a little larger. The suites were more like 15x22, maybe more. The best sound were in the suites of course. There are not enough suites in the hotel. But their were bad sound in some of the suites also.
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Majority of the rooms are small, 12x15, maybe a little larger. The suites were more like 15x22, maybe more. The best sound were in the suites of course. There are not enough suites in the hotel. But their were bad sound in some of the suites also.
I've gone a bunch of times....still no excuse.
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Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your experience with those of us who couldn't make it. I loved the coverage. Much appreciated!
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I've gone a bunch of times....still no excuse.
There maybe are no excuses, but I have been going to these type of shows for over 30 years. To be honest, this was the best sounding show overall that I have ever attended.
Half of these booths or more are manned by distributors with several of their product lines. When they do a show, they take all new product. They do not have time or care if the product is broken-in.
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Well said Pez!
My final thoughts?
WOW. What an an experience! My first trip to RMAF, and the first time I've been to any of these shows for more than a single day. I definitely ran out of steam somewhere late morning Sunday. Too many stairs trying to avoid the elevator waits. Have to see how the finances are doing next year, but it was definitely a blast. Now that I've experienced it, I think I would do a few things differently next time. I got tired of lugging around the extra gear after just the first day. I brought an SPL and a laser tape measure with the intent of taking measurements in the rooms, so that I could compare apples to apples afterwards - I didn't want room size and/or louder rooms to weigh into my opinions too much. It quickly becomes obvious that with the exception of the suites, there are basically two room sizes. The volume was changing too frequently - between "oh, that's too loud" and "No, turn it up" and the constantly changing dynamics of the music itself.
Pez, I don't know how you mangaged lugging that big DSLR and Pad around for three days!! You earned earned my respect!
There were about 10-15 rooms that had truly great sound, and I think seaparating them comes down to individual preferences, and whether or not you were able to hear music that you liked AND you were familiar with. The comfort level also played a factor - how friendly/inviting was it, and was the room too hot or cold.
I definitely liked the rooms with acoustical treatment better. In fact, I ran into Woodsyi Sunday afternoon in the hall, and he asked me for my opinion on a room we were next to - just duck in a give a quick opinion. It was one of the rooms with Wilson Sophias (which I love by the way).
It was one of the small rooms with no treatments. Walked in and out IMMEDIATELY. I couldn't stand it.
And that was not the only room where I did that. It's not really fair, IMHO, to judge those rooms. I have no way of knowing WHY the dealer/manufacturer ended up with massive speakers in a small untreated room, but I know for a fact that they will not sound as good as they should.
Several comments I will keep to myself, or if pressed share in person or via PM. I saw a few things that raised my eyebrows, and I don't know if it was just thoughtlessness by the demonstrator, or if there were some ethical issues.
It was nice meeting the gang from AC. Much props to Pez for the live coverage.
I managed to "hang out" in the GR room Sunday morning, and it was an absolute pleasure to meet Dave from PI Audio (already implementing some of your suggestions, and yep, things are moving in the right direction) as well as Danny, Gary, and Eric (on the spot with amplifier).
Thanks to all!!!!
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Eric Hider did tell me I could reveal his new DAC. Everyone at GR Research and PI Group were raving about it. DB Audio is coming out with the new battery powered DAC that is quite a bit better than the Tranquility SE. In fact, some says it blows the Tranquility away. Look for an announcement from Eric shortly.
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Pez & Tyson,
Thank you so much for such great coverage. I will not likely make it out for the show anytime soon and so must live vicariously. Your coverage is the best I have ever read. Far better than the magazines. Great photos, too! Amazing!!
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You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.
I agree with jtwrace. These people can create a fantastically complicated product. You would think that they could plan ahead a few weeks and show up with product that is operating at its best. If two days of play at the show make a noticeable difference in the sound of these products, that just increases my wonder that they show up unprepared.
Truth be told, they're just making excuses.
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I would like to see Laura and Woodsyi's thoughts about what they heard if they have time to post when they get home.Scotty
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Rob, I went back to the Salk/Van Alstine room on day 3 and the sound was completely different. Frank told me that the speakers were brand new and needed to be broken in. He was right. They sounded much better on Sunday.
If this is truly what Frank told you then his comment is very lame. This show was not a surprise announcement. The dates have been known for a long time. Get your act together or don't exhibit the speakers. This is like a high school student knowing for six months that he will have to hand in a full-semester project and waits until the night before the deadline to prepare it! I too was very much looking forward to hearing the Salk/AVA system and I was disappointed - it just lack any emotion or impact. IMHO
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You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.
I agree with jtwrace. These people can create a fantastically complicated product. You would think that they could plan ahead a few weeks and show up with product that is operating at its best. If two days of play at the show make a noticeable difference in the sound of these products, that just increases my wonder that they show up unprepared.
Truth be told, they're just making excuses.
Bingo!
If this is truly what Frank told you then his comment is very lame. This show was not a surprise announcement. The dates have been known for a long time. Get your act together or don't exhibit the speakers. This is like a high school student knowing for six months that he will have to hand in a full-semester project and waits until the night before the deadline to prepare it! I too was very much looking forward to hearing the Salk/AVA system and I was disappointed - it just lack any emotion or impact. IMHO
I couldn't agree more. :thumb:
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I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?
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I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?
You supply the gear? Bring it on!!!
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I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?
Sure, bring it on. I would point out that my livelihood does not depend on getting good sound from a system. If it did, I would Make sure I was good at it. Scratch that, I'd make sure I was GREAT at it. And I'd use every tool at my disposal......like room treatments. And big fat guys standing in the corner. And hot show babes greeting everyone.
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And I'd use every tool at my disposal......like room treatments. And big fat guys standing in the corner. And hot show babes greeting everyone.
What, no beer? Scotch?
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Something that needs to be remembered when discussing small loudspeaker companies particularly those that build to order like Salk does is that they have no excess capacity, they are producing loudspeakers as fast as they can to meet existing orders. They have had to divert time and resources away from production to build the speakers taken to the show. I am not at all surprised that they wind up bringing loudspeakers that are not fully broken in.If their business is successful they have stolen time from spare moments or nights and weekends to build something to take to the show. Another thing to remember is that most small vendors who go to these shows are lucky to get enough sales based on their appearance at the show to break even on the trip. I am willing to cut the little guys considerable slack because of these factors.
Scotty
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Well, to quote Granny Hawkins from Josey Wales, "I say that big talk's worth doodly-squat."
How many of you have ever set up a room at a show?
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I have over several years. This one included.
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Best Sound at RMAF 2011 to these humble ears - and no, I did not visit every room:
Coincident Loudspeakers and Electronics. Sound was exactly what I having been dreaming of for 40 years of being in this hobby.
Next best but a very close second:
Sanders Electrostatics and Electronics.
Both of these systems made the hair on my arms stand up - no it wasn't static because of the dry mountain air.
BTW - No treatments in either room - can't imagine what sonic heights would have been heard if there had been!
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as I thought, none of you
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Well, to quote Granny Hawkins from Josey Wales, "I say that big talk's worth doodly-squat."
How many of you have ever set up a room at a show?
You do realize that it's not hard to do. Right? Computer, mic stand, calibrated mic and sound card and you can see what you have. Measurements DO NOT lie. :duh: Pez know's this and that's why he is confident.
Am I correct Pez? :)
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Ummm.... :scratch: :scratch:
Let me try again....
I HAVE HELPED SET UP ROOMS OVER SEVERAL YEARS
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then why haven't you gotten everyone straightened out? It's so damn easy
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as I thought, none of you
I've offered to help this community here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99284.0
I've helped setup many systems. In fact, this past weekend I did.
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not someone's home. try at La quinta
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not someone's home. try at La quinta
Bring it on!
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Well, to quote Granny Hawkins from Josey Wales, "I say that big talk's worth doodly-squat."
How many of you have ever set up a room at a show?
With all due respect - that is not the point.
I am not in the speaker building business - they are. This is a "show" - so show your best or don't show up.
Although the Von Schweikert new VR44 speakers driven by Purity Audio electronics was not my favourite speaker, my congrats to them for actually hiring Jeff Hedback from HD Acoustics to do the room treatment of the room.
The GR Research room ALWAYS sounds great because Danny Ritchie makes sure that the room is treated. In past years Danny and his team actually took the time to drive over to the local Home Depot and bought huge bags of insulation which he strategically placed behind makeshift black curtains. After the room he returned the unopened bags for a refund. That is exactly what Danny told me a few years ago. That is using your head as a speaker manufacturer. Cost him nothing - made the room sound fantastic.
Here is what bothers me - how can I have confidence in a speaker product if the manufacturer/designer/distributor cannot figure out how to make a single room sound, if not perfect, at least presentable?
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And hot show babes greeting everyone.
That got me everytime :o,it's got me to stay longer even tho the system suck.
lapsan
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this is the same complaint, year after year, and you guys keep going and expecting them to have primo showroom sound.
What was that definition of insanity? Same thing, expecting different outcomes.
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this is the same complaint, year after year, and you guys keep going and expecting them to have primo showroom sound.
What was that definition of insanity? Same thing, expecting different outcomes.
Absolutely Chester, I expect the manufacturers who use the same size room in the same hotel over multiple years to finally figure it out. :lol:
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Something that needs to be remembered when discussing small loudspeaker companies particularly those that build to order like Salk does is that they have no excess capacity, they are producing loudspeakers as fast as they can to meet existing orders. They have had to divert time and resources away from production to build the speakers taken to the show. I am not at all surprised that they wind up bringing loudspeakers that are not fully broken in.If their business is successful they have stolen time from spare moments or nights and weekends to build something to take to the show. Another thing to remember is that most small vendors who go to these shows are lucky to get enough sales based on their appearance at the show to break even on the trip. I am willing to cut the little guys considerable slack because of these factors.
Scotty
While it is true, many smaller companies may not have the overhead for it, but the fact still remains...they have 365 days to plan for this. Having worked in manufacturing high end equipment before, its really not that difficult to set aside a unit or two well in advance for something like this. I understand new products may not even be finished until the day before the show and that is understandable. The issue is the companies bringing products that they have had since last years show and then using excuses of "its not broken in" etc.
Just my 2cents.
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I think they have figured RMAF out. which is why you keep hearing the same crap, year after year
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then why haven't you gotten everyone straightened out? It's so damn easy
That's what this thread is attempting to accomplish. And I never said it was easy.
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there it is
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What, no beer? Scotch?
There were both and more in the Positive Feedback room :D
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not someone's home. try at La quinta
Chester, you seen to be attempting to pigeon hole me into some preconceived idea. When I say I have helped setup I mean at audio shows. Several years at RMAF and a show in Ohio. And I used room treatment in every single case!Btw which room were you in?
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I wasnt anywhere near Colorado. And I'm not the one throwing stones. What rooms did you set up?
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Daedalus audio. Room 1030 though this year I didn't help out nearly as much as last year with setup.
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I'd like to address this issue of the "impossible" room. If a designer shows equipment, and it sounds like crap, then it sounds like crap. No excuses about the room, the thin Denver air, ambient noise, break in, etc. For dealers to display their equipment under poor conditions is either arrogance, poor planning, or laziness. In case I didn't piss off enough people, let me repeat arrogant, poor planning, or lazy.
For those that really want their stuff to shine, no effort is too great.
Probably the best treated room was the GR-Research room... and even then these guys weren't completely happy with the sound. This room had a kitchen with a window cutout into the main room. It created a low bass suckout (and sure enough, Tyson mentions bass in his review). We spent hours Friday evening building a false wall of 2x4s, pressboard, and foam to plug the 4'X6' window. Then they tweaked some of the 10 or 12 diffusors for the upteenth time.
For those sticking a plant in the corner and calling it done... I don't get it.
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I'd like to address this issue of the "impossible" room. If a designer shows equipment, and it sounds like crap, then it sounds like crap. No excuses about the room, the thin Denver air, ambient noise, break in, etc. For dealers to display their equipment under poor conditions is either arrogance, poor planning, or laziness. In case I didn't piss off enough people, let me repeat arrogant, poor planning, or lazy.
For those that really want their stuff to shine, no effort is too great.
Probably the best treated room was the GR-Research room... and even then these guys weren't completely happy with the sound. This room had a kitchen with a window cutout into the main room. It created a low bass suckout (and sure enough, Tyson mentions bass in his review). We spent hours Friday evening building a false wall of 2x4s, pressboard, and foam to plug the 4'X6' window. Then they tweaked some of the 10 or 12 diffusors for the upteenth time.
For those sticking a plant in the corner and calling it done... I don't get it.
Perfectly stated!!!
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I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?
I tried it in 2010 at LSAF. That was the toughest thing I ever did. I thought it would be a cakewalk. My great sounding home system that was very well broken in sounded like crap. Only after Seth of Virtue loaned me a battery powered modded version of my amp did it started sounding good. Many said I had the most natural sounding system at LSAF, but the sound never came close to what I have at home.
I was very much humbled by the experience and sure respect what the audio companies have to go through every show.
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I think unrealistic expectations definitely play a part in forming one's impressions about what is heard at show. I just don't expect much in the way of good sound from the systems I hear at audio shows. Between bad power, small rooms and equipment combinations that have never been tried before, there are a lot of possibilities for things to go horribly wrong.
With lowered expectations going in I have always been pleasantly surprised when a system doesn't actually hurt my ears, let alone sound above average.
I think the key thing to remember is that you are ALWAYS listening to the room plus the entire sytem. No meaningful conclusions can be drawn about the performance of individual pieces in a system at a show.
When the sound you hear at show that is listenable and doesn't hurt it doesn't guarantee that any part of it is above average in performance. It is always easier to get "good"
sound from a system that is "dumbed" down and has a lot of masking present. When masking levels are lower it is far easier to generate combinations of equipment that do not play well together.
I have always attempted to gather intelligence on equipment that might show the promise of better than average performance under the controlled conditions obtained in my own listening room.
Scotty
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Tom and Scotty get it.
IF, someone is good, and everything else goes well, things might start to sound ok by Sunday. But I'd bet you all a night at the bar that everyone of those guys wouldn't swear they could much better sound in a room that has had attention paid to it for weeks or months. I know that is true for myself.
Try tearing your system down completely. Move everything into trailer and drive it around town. Then go home and set it back up. How long does it take for things to settle down in your system, in a room you know well?
And, Pez. You did well in that room for Wayne and Lou. I was there.
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Thank you, but I can't even try to take any credit this year. I helped very little. Mostly helped out with final tweaking. What you heard was tuned mostly by the two of them with maybe a couple of pointers from me here and there.
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I'd like to address this issue of the "impossible" room. If a designer shows equipment, and it sounds like crap, then it sounds like crap. No excuses about the room, the thin Denver air, ambient noise, break in, etc. For dealers to display their equipment under poor conditions is either arrogance, poor planning, or laziness. In case I didn't piss off enough people, let me repeat arrogant, poor planning, or lazy.
For those that really want their stuff to shine, no effort is too great.
I have to agree.
We spent hours Friday evening building a false wall of 2x4s, pressboard, and foam to plug the 4'X6' window.
If I hadn't seen it for myself... :o
Btw, had no idea you were one of those folks in the room. Danny and Dave for sure. You remember a swarthy looking guy named AJ grinning constantly the whole time in the room?
Also Btw, thought the sound was very nicely balanced, even before the "wall".
cheers,
AJ
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How long does it take for things to settle down in your system, in a room you know well?
:roll:
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Sorry, Pez. I meant I was there last year but not this year.
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I think I know what chester is referring to here.
How long does it take for things to settle down in your system, in a room you know well?
I have noticed over the last 10 years an increasing sensitivity in my equipment to being turned off for more than a couple hours. The sonic consequence of being powered down for more than a couple of hours max, is a grungy quality to the sound that persists for about 1.5 to 2 times the duration of the powered down cycle. This became particularly evident when all components were upgraded to Jensen 4 pole capacitors in their main power supply filter banks.
Apparently the Jensen 4 pole caps unform enough when no voltage is applied to them that their high frequency impedance rises which subsequently raises the power supplies dynamic impedance. The circuits involved at this point are good enough to tell you when the power supplies dynamic impedance is not as low as it is when the caps are fully formed up.
This is a small price to pay however, for the blacker background and more dynamic and vivid presentation you can get from using the Jensens in the power supply.
I have illustrated an extreme situation that exists within the context of my system but the negative impact of the impedance rise in the power supply filter caps due to having no voltage on them is clearly audible in the case of a number of the more transparent circuit designs now available today.
The solution to the problem is to transport them under powered up conditions by plugging them into an inverter in the vehicle.
Scotty
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Great job, Pez and Tyson :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and the pics from afar.
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Jason,
As a manufacturer, I agree with 99% of what you say, however the breakin thing is real. when you have setup systems at shows for 10 years or more and every time it sounds like crap on the setup day and then gets best sound on Sat or Sun, you start to reealize that no matter what you do, it will always be this way. It does not matter how many weeks of breakin you give the gear prior to shipping to the show.
My theory on this is that there are at least 2 phenomena at work here:
First, shows are generally forums to debut new designs and equipment, so it usually does not hqve the benefit of months of breakin. Second, when you ship. anything it develops statit charge in all of the dielectrics, cqbles, capacitors and even circuit board FR4. It takes time for this to dissipate, days. Thirdly, when you dont plqy speakers for even a few days the surrounds start to stiffen. Temperature changes during shipping certainly aggrqvqte this.a
Steve N.
Empiricl Audio
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I too was amazed how many more rooms had great sound this year. At the RMAF 2008 I only thought a handful of system sounded well but this year there were many. Still it was great to come home to my own system.
Bob
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I tried it in 2010 at LSAF. That was the toughest thing I ever did. I thought it would be a cakewalk. My great sounding home system that was very well broken in sounded like crap. Only after Seth of Virtue loaned me a battery powered modded version of my amp did it started sounding good. Many said I had the most natural sounding system at LSAF, but the sound never came close to what I have at home.
I was very much humbled by the experience and sure respect what the audio companies have to go through every show.
Very good point. I am one of the lucky ones in that my room has dedicated power. It is not shared with other rooms or other hotel facilities. Most of the small rooms dont get this lucky. In their case, they really need isolating conditioners like the B-P-T or battery power. Even with our great power, we still used the conditioners and battery on the Mac and the DAC.
Steve N.
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Is there a reason PRICE is not mentioned in association with a room. I can relate to the pursuit of audio perfection. Realty is- at what cost ?
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I think I know what chester is referring to here. I have noticed over the last 10 years an increasing sensitivity in my equipment to being turned off for more than a couple hours. The sonic consequence of being powered down for more than a couple of hours max, is a grungy quality to the sound that persists for about 1.5 to 2 times the duration of the powered down cycle. This became particularly evident when all components were upgraded to Jensen 4 pole capacitors in their main power supply filter banks.
Apparently the Jensen 4 pole caps unform enough when no voltage is applied to them that their high frequency impedance rises which subsequently raises the power supplies dynamic impedance. The circuits involved at this point are good enough to tell you when the power supplies dynamic impedance is not as low as it is when the caps are fully formed up.
This is a small price to pay however, for the blacker background and more dynamic and vivid presentation you can get from using the Jensens in the power supply.
I have illustrated an extreme situation that exists within the context of my system but the negative impact of the impedance rise in the power supply filter caps due to having no voltage on them is clearly audible in the case of a number of the more transparent circuit designs now available today.
The solution to the problem is to transport them under powered up conditions by plugging them into an inverter in the vehicle.
Scotty
Agree. I need at least one hour for my system to clean up but a whole day warmed up is wayyyyyy better. For my GTG this weekend I will turn on the system Thursday night and let 'er run in repeat mode until Saturday. It will be sweet.
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Thanks, Pez. Thanks, Tyson.
You guys kick ass. :thumb:
That's my RMAF 2011 Final Thought.
:beer:
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Haha I love you guys.
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Ahh, youth and energy. You guys did a fine job of a Herculenian task. I'm glad I got to meet you and Tyson.
Scott
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OK, here's my final thoughts on the show. Kickin' it for 3 days with Pez in an audiophool's heaven is one of the highlights of the year for me. Pez is my best friend too, but I'm not sure how much that counts when you consider that he's my ONLY friend :P
As for the show, here's my few thoughts, after having been to several of these in a row now.
1. The playing field is level. When we walk into a room, there is just as much chance for it to sound good as any other room. We've had several rooms that sucked one year and kicked @ss the next, and we report it exactly like we hear it (ie, YG, Focal, AMR). Other rooms go the opposite direction (Dynaudio, Hansen, Merlin). Others are consistently great (GR Research, Fritz, Daedalus, JH Audio), and others are consistently bad (single driver speakers, OTL's, Nordost).
2. The show gets BETTER every year. It's funny, I look back and I see us posting each year "This is the best show EVER!" Then the next year we say, "No, THIS is the best show EVER." But it's true, every year the overall quality of the rooms improves, and sometimes dramatically.
3. People who let you play your own music rock. People who don't, suck. How can anyone evaluate your system with music they've never heard before. I know it's a pain, and lots of (other) people have really questionable taste in music, but it's perhaps one of the few times they will EVER have to hear your gear. Give it up for 5 minutes!
4. This one is for the attendees - most of the time you are super cool. But don't hog the f'ing sweet spot. Unless you are buying a piece of gear, right now, today, then get the f' out and let other people listen too.
5. RMAF is worth attending for the after-hour parties in the manufacturer rooms alone!
6. This is a hobby of introverts. Everyone is hyper the first day or 2, and completely zonked by the 3rd, from having to actually interact with other human beings for more than 48 hours at a stretch.
7. Tool causes schisms. Over 40, and you clear the room. Under 40 and you ask "Who was THAT?"
8. There's not enough hot show babes. Really, if we want to be taken seriously at a national level, we need a lot more hot show babes, preferably asian.
9. Room treatment. Yes you need it. Yes it's a pain. No, your room won't be it's best with out it. Contact Brian Pape on this forum if you can't figure it out yourself and need help. Even giving out copious amounts of free beer or scotch will not make up for an untreated room.
10. Pez is da man! Seriously, he carries around a heavy ass camera with a giant flash to get you all these killer pics, and an ipad to upload everything in real time. And he NEVER stops working, the whole show. And he never complains. Oh wait, yes he does. Constantly. But then I b!tch slap him and he meekly starts uploading more photos.
SAN DIMAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sure, bring it on. I would point out that my livelihood does not depend on getting good sound from a system. If it did, I would Make sure I was good at it. Scratch that, I'd make sure I was GREAT at it. And I'd use every tool at my disposal......like room treatments. And big fat guys standing in the corner. And hot show babes greeting everyone.
THIS
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Pez and Tyson:
Thanks tons for your efforts, words, images, and humor.
But...
How about more coverage for us audiophile wanta bees (who don't have $10k+ budgets)?
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#7 made me laugh. What do they do when an old guy like me walks in with a bag of Lps, Pearl Jam, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson.
No body let me play my records, either. :lol: Well, I did get to spin my Hot Dawg, which led to Wayne giving me an excellent Grisman LP. Title escapes me at present.
One thing I have learned over the years. Success at shows does not necessarily translate into business success.
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#7 made me laugh. What do they do when an old guy like me walks in with a bag of Lps, Pearl Jam, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson.
No body let me play my records, either. :lol: Well, I did get to spin my Hot Dawg, which led to Wayne giving me an excellent Grisman LP. Title escapes me at present.
One thing I have learned over the years. Success at shows does not necessarily translate into business success.
if I recall that was "Glide" by Jerry Douglas & Grisman
thanks,
lou
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Tom, don't understand how that could be a matter of just breaking in, or even placement for that matter. I would think that a speaker manufacturer, in particular, would take care that everything upstream of them and their placement would be complimentary on day one. What am I missing?
..this blossoming of sound on the 3rd day of a show phenomenon is pretty interesting...and trying to work it out may be impossible but here are a few thoughts...
...first there is the idea that systems not only need time to warm up, but they also need time find an inner equilibrium...and yes that is for some pretty airy fairy but its not like we haven't all stumbled across variations on this theme at some time in our various stereo adventures...
...the second thing is the old saw about the room being responsible for 50% of a system sound....now the room issue is dealt with in two ways...the first is acoustic treatment which can a bit of a two edged sword....on the one hand you can have a treatment that gives back a neutral room that becomes a black background against which a system can be heard against....on the other hand you can have treatments that actually change the room sound to compliment the sound of the system...now that opens up another can of worms which I won't go into ...as in which is the more honest way of presenting your system at a show...but there in another thing to consider in terms of the impact of room acoustics( and this to do with the passive aspect, the en situ part, of room acoustics )...
...we, as humans are blessed with a very sophisticated editorial program that is part of our ear-brain system ( sometimes its truer to understand that hearing is actually done by the brain and not the ear )...this system allows us to pull meaningful information out of noisy backgrounds....sometimes these backgrounds are very complicated and require some acclimatization to correctly edit around...rooms, while seemingly simple are actually quite complex acoustically and when they are the background to critical listening they become bigger issues then what we usually deal with on a day to day basis in our normal lives...now audio shows are crazy circus environments that are adrenaline charged and that can initially be overwhelming but they can over time become edited into background noise ( and excitement dies down over time which helps a lot ) because as much as anything the listener has now internalized the new sonic environment....and thankfully most shows are presented in rooms that in most cases fairly similar not only in size and shape but also in the construction of their boundary surfaces...hence you now have a known common denominator that you can edit out of the sonic landscape and actually hear the system better...and the longer you are there the better you be able to do successful critical listening ..
...sorry about being so long winded and so late with this comment relative to the flow of the thread but I thought I might just throw this babble out there anyway...
Cheers
blutto
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I don't go to RMAF just for the sound because I know hotel rooms are not the best venue, even brick and mortar shops have a hard time getting the best out of equipment. I go for the personal interactions both with AC members and the manufacturers and to have a good time...and AC members sure know how to have a good time!
This year I took photos in about 40 rooms that I thought had great sound, I think that is pretty good. Heck, based on personal preferences and priorities someone else could have picked 40 different rooms which would mean over 50% of the rooms had great sound.
I should have given the Estelon Diamond speakers a longer listen.
The Hilton has the best breakfast buffet, get there early to snag a table next to an ethernet jack for fast free internet.
I stayed at the Hyatt this year and tried to check my email late Friday night and they wanted $9.95 for WiFi. WTF? It's not the money it's the principal, a $99 room should have free WiFi. I told the manager at the front desk that because of their corporate greed I'm never staying there again. The Marriott charges something like $12.95 for in-room WiFi. This policy will never change if people don't complain. Join the free WiFi movement!
The Hilton has free in-room WiFi.
Pez and Tyson are amazing dudes.
Wayne
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Good point about the wifi. It wasn't even provided for exhibitors who paid thousands for their rooms. It was $12.95 PER DAY! We got by using my phone as an access point.
In addition to the Hilton, the Hampton where I stayed also had free wifi. (and really excellent service too)
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Is the RMAF always at the Marriott?
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Wayne you did some great coverage! We appreciate the effort. It's almost ridiculous how many rooms you got to that I never even saw. That just goes to how how enormous this show is. Any way regarding wifi I gave up in using hotel wifi along time ago. Even when it's free it's terrible IME. iPad 3G and iPhone are the only way to travel!
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Pez & Tyson, Thank you so much for such great coverage. I will not likely make it out for the show anytime soon and so must live vicariously. Your coverage is the best I have ever read. Far better than the magazines. Great photos, too! Amazing!!
+1
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I like this thread.....BUT it is funny to me that a few years ago, I made a very opinionated set of posts after my first RMAF show. At the time, I touched on several of the same points being discussed here such as bringing your own music and poor set-up and treatment by vendors. I also remember making a funny comment about Asian manufacturers liking to wear suits. I got about 50/50 btw praise and flack. Funny that this thread is going a little more smoothly.....in fact I remember getting some from Pez. Not holding a grudge here, but I'm just making an observation about how the tides have turned.
I think I may move to Denver, build a huge stock pile of room treatment and rent them to the vendors who cannot afford to bring their own. It would be nice to see a little more consistency from room to room to help make system judgments a little easier.
Also, those stupid little brass bowls need to go! What a freaking joke these kind of things make this hobby. I remember asking several vendors back in 2008 about them and they told me that a guy came buy and offered to put them up for free. If he came to my room and I was a serious company based on solid engineering principles, I would take that thing and shove it where it might actually have an effect.
Thanks for all the info folks.
Greg
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Pez and Tyson - thanks for coming in and beating our speakers to death... :lol:
Seriously, at times we were at levels exceeding 105db - good thing we didn't get the boot! I guess that's what you get when you hand a listener the remote. :lol:
One thing about allowing music to be played. From the standpoint of a manufacturer you roll the dice when you have someone play their own music. I have heard both extremely good recordings and some that were awful. The latter can drive others from the room and discourage those looking to enter for listening. We had 40,000+ tracks on our drive so we elected to allow anyone to pick from those (as you guys did) and that worked out pretty well. There were a few recording engineers with their own discs so we did allow them to play their own tracks.
One thing I would suggest is to list your personal systems as a point of reference for those reading your comments. Thanks for acknowledging your biases as well - we all have them whether we admit it or not.
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I like this thread.....BUT it is funny to me that a few years ago, I made a very opinionated set of posts after my first RMAF show. At the time, I touched on several of the same points being discussed here such as bringing your own music and poor set-up and treatment by vendors. I also remember making a funny comment about Asian manufacturers liking to wear suits. I got about 50/50 btw praise and flack. Funny that this thread is going a little more smoothly.....in fact I remember getting some from Pez. Not holding a grudge here, but I'm just making an observation about how the tides have turned.
I think I may move to Denver, build a huge stock pile of room treatment and rent them to the vendors who cannot afford to bring their own. It would be nice to see a little more consistency from room to room to help make system judgments a little easier.
Also, those stupid little brass bowls need to go! What a freaking joke these kind of things make this hobby. I remember asking several vendors back in 2008 about them and they told me that a guy came buy and offered to put them up for free. If he came to my room and I was a serious company based on solid engineering principles, I would take that thing and shove it where it might actually have an effect.
Thanks for all the info folks.
Greg
... there is one teensie weensie little problem with your comment about those stupid little brass bowls( apart of course from from your threat to do physical harm to someone)...they work, in fact they really, really work well....and no I don't sell them or am associated with them in any way but I have been around several situations where they were installed...pretty spectacular performance results actually...
Cheers
blutto
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Is the RMAF always at the Marriott?
Yes....it's been there since it began in 2004....and future dates are booked there as well....for 2012-2013-2014-2015.
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Hi Lou,
I hear Daedalus speakers did very well again this year in several room.
I had to go look on the shelf, the LP Wayne gave me last year was Early Dawg. You and Wayne have any more Grisman you want to part with just let me know. :thumb:
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Yes....it's been there since it began in 2004....and future dates are booked there as well....for 2012-2013-2014-2015.
Hi Chris - next year also Oct 14-16? Hope not... I have something else going on during the same period ...
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Hi Chris - next year also Oct 14-16? Hope not... I have something else going on during the same period ...
Looks like Oct 12-14, 2012.
http://audiofest.net/2011/index.php
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I like this thread.....BUT it is funny to me that a few years ago, I made a very opinionated set of posts after my first RMAF show. At the time, I touched on several of the same points being discussed here such as bringing your own music and poor set-up and treatment by vendors. I also remember making a funny comment about Asian manufacturers liking to wear suits. I got about 50/50 btw praise and flack. Funny that this thread is going a little more smoothly.....in fact I remember getting some from Pez. Not holding a grudge here, but I'm just making an observation about how the tides have turned.
I think I may move to Denver, build a huge stock pile of room treatment and rent them to the vendors who cannot afford to bring their own. It would be nice to see a little more consistency from room to room to help make system judgments a little easier.
Also, those stupid little brass bowls need to go! What a freaking joke these kind of things make this hobby. I remember asking several vendors back in 2008 about them and they told me that a guy came buy and offered to put them up for free. If he came to my room and I was a serious company based on solid engineering principles, I would take that thing and shove it where it might actually have an effect.
Thanks for all the info folks.
Greg
I don't remember, but whatever. If you got flak from me perhaps it wasn't what you said, but the way you said it? :dunno: Just sayin'
... there is one teensie weensie little problem with your comment about those stupid little brass bowls( apart of course from from your threat to do physical harm to someone)...they work, in fact they really, really work well....and no I don't sell them or am associated with them in any way but I have been around several situations where they were installed...pretty spectacular performance results actually...
Cheers
blutto
Again I personally don't dispute the degree to which these little things do or do not work, but when that's ALL you see in a room like I stated about the little room resonator things in the German Physiks room I cringe. Not because they have no effect, but because any effect they have could not influence the most offensive problems I have stated were with rooms, like boomy bass, glassy sound at higher SPLs and lack of focus in soundstage and imaging. Little 'resonators' or whatever probably have 0 emprically measurable effect. I doubt you could see a 15 dB bass hump at 70 hz be any less. Do you see what I'm saying? It's like having Nordost Odin speaker cables, but having your speakers wired out of phase! Big issues first then small tweaks. To completely ignore a fundamental issue and at the same time address something tweaky to me indicates a lack of understanding.
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RMAF 2011...
What a blast. Met a bunch of great people. Ran into a lot of people from last year. It was tough work, but we got the job done. Another year has come and gone, and we look forward for RMAF 2012. :D
I would like to say thanks on behalf of myself, Roger and the YG Team to Pez and Tyson. You guys are amazing on taking the challenge and covering the show. Thanks for the great time at Shanahan's.
Marco
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Chris,
It's really good to have finally met YOU, Jeff, & other ACers.
Thanks again for the cds. They are exceptional.
Yes....it's been there since it began in 2004....and future dates are booked there as well....for 2012-2013-2014-2015.
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RMAF 2011...
What a blast. Met a bunch of great people. Ran into a lot of people from last year. It was tough work, but we got the job done. Another year has come and gone, and we look forward for RMAF 2012. :D
I would like to say thanks on behalf of myself, Roger and the YG Team to Pez and Tyson. You guys are amazing on taking the challenge and covering the show. Thanks for the great time at Shanahan's.
Marco
Marco, We had an absolute blast at Shanahan's. Great conversation great people great food. That's what RMAF is all about. :thumb: Oh also great gear. :duh: :lol:
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Is there a reason PRICE is not mentioned in association with a room. I can relate to the pursuit of audio perfection. Realty is- at what cost ?
Depends on the room. We had a handout that described the system with individual costs for speakers, acoustic treatments, cables etc.. as well as the total retail price, which was $77K
Steve N.
Emporical Audio
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8. There's not enough hot show babes. Really, if we want to be taken seriously at a national level, we need a lot more hot show babes, preferably asian.
I suppose I could get my wife a kimono..... How about bringing a big poster of a foxy asian woman? :o
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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Room treatments - some of the products used at the show for low frequency issues do nothing to improve the room.
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Room treatments - some of the products used at the show for low frequency issues do nothing to improve the room.
Agreed. I think the only way to effectively deal with LF room resonances is placement of speakers and EQ. We used some Amarra EQ. Along with ipad audio analyzer and a calibrated mic, this is the best way I think.
We did however have some corner traps to tame the bass if the speakers are too close to the corners. This does help. They do nothing for room resonances.
Steve N.
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Room treatments - some of the products used at the show for low frequency issues do nothing to improve the room.
Why do you say that?
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Why do you say that?
I should have been more specific - passive "traps". The science of what works makes it easy to spot one that won't help the room.
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I don't go to RMAF just for the sound because I know hotel rooms are not the best venue, even brick and mortar shops have a hard time getting the best out of equipment. I go for the personal interactions both with AC members and the manufacturers and to have a good time...and AC members sure know how to have a good time!
Pez and Tyson are amazing dudes.
Wayne
+100 on this. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Laura
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What passive absorbers do in terms of frequency response depends on what frequencies are in question (no - it's impractical to try to address 30Hz with any passive absorber whose thickness isn't measured in feet), and also where in the room they are placed. If problems are caused by cancellations off the rear wall or boundary interactions behind speakers close to a wall, you can treat every corner in the room and you're not going to fix the problem. Corners are efficient, not a be-all, end-all solution.
All of that said, dealing with the time domain, passive absorbers can certainly provide a huge benefit. By controlling how quickly bass energy decays in the room, you limit how much is can mask harmonic textures, imaging cues, low level information in general, etc.
My process is always:
Set up the seat in a good place for bass response.
Set up the speakers for smoothest response and good imaging at the listening seat
Address the room reflections, bass boost/cancellations the best you can with treatment.
Address the decay time in the room to bring it to the appropriate level given the room volume and usage.
THEN add EQ if required to tailor to your personal preference.
Under show conditions with limited time, multiple seats, far from ideal symmetry and trimmings, a few small EQ adjustments can be invaluable, but are not a replacement for treatments as EQ will not address the decay time issue at all. In fact, if a band of EQ is not exactly at the same center frequency and Q, it can actually create more ringing earlier on in the decay cycle.
The one drawback of displaying at the show is the lack of time to spend time with people you'd like to see, walking the halls to have more than 5 minutes at a time to listen, etc.
Bryan
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First, let me say that I really enjoyed Pez (and Tyson's) incredible coverage of this years RMAF. And I was there! I would check their posts each night to see if I missed anything great (and boy did I miss rooms! My goal was 50% and I missed it by 50%!; i.e I probably really "listened" in 25% of the rooms...no one can do over 50% in my opinion).
AI also want to state that I agree 101% with pez's final comments about room treatment needs, snobbery and the overall surprises that some of these vendors use as excuses. Like they weren't aware of poor ac, bad room acoustics and the need for break-in?? All that being said, this year was as good an RMAF as I've attended (this was my 5th).
My favorite things:
* spending time with AC members. It was a pleasure seeing Joe and Bill (Purity) and spending time in their very friendly and accommodating room (more below). It was a pleasure spending Friday evening with Wayne (WGH). Rob (questfortone) and I had dinner and a beer with him at the Marriott, then went over to the bar/pub across from our hotel to take in the local music and local bar scene (very crowded and happenin' place). I think Wayne took a pic and posted elsewhere. They claim I got hit upon but I think she just wanted me to buy a beer while I was at the bar! 8) Oh, and it was my 33rd wedding anniversary so that would have been an instantly-go-to-hell pass for me. :o It was also cool to meet up with Rim (Woodsyi) and spend time Sunday seeing a few rooms and ending up in Pure Music's after hours party, comparing DSD and PCM, and learning about great opera! :)
* spending time with creative vendors and manufacturers. Add to the Joe and Bill room above, I also loved spending time with Rob (Channel D, Pure Music) and wife in Room 411. Their after hours aprty was a lot of fun, and very enlightening for me (DSD, vinyl rips, etc). Also, meeting Michal Jurewicz from Mytek (DSD/PCM DAC) and his whole team. It was great that they gave this new-to-audiophiledom-but-pro-audio-veteran a seat at the HiRez seminar on Saturday afternoon. Also, stopping by to say hi to favorites like Chris Connaker (Computer Audiophile), Dan Wright (Modwright), Wayne (Bolder), Bruce Brown (Puget Sound), Darren (AMR), Jonathan (Playback Design), Michael Garner (Tweekgeek), etc etc. Finally got a chance to meet Albert von Schweikert, Walter Liederman (Underwood, Emerald Physics), Clayton Shaw (ex-Emerald, now Spatial), and Dom (Merging Technologies).
*taking the 5 minute walk to the Hyatt to check out the new unreleased (November) SACD of Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Chad's release is both breathtaking and a breath of fresh air, the latter for being $30 to own new James Guthrie 5.1 and 2.0 remasters without having to deal with the complex and over-marketed Immersion or Discovery box sets. The surround demo was amazing; this is a very aggressive mix with a new ability to peel back all the complexities of the mix spread across five ATC active 150's (and subs, although limited use of LFE channels).
My favorite rooms (in no particular order, kind of):
* TAD's whole system room, with the smaller Compact Ref 1's. OK, this was my Best Of Show...bu then it always is. Andrew Jones has his sh$t together! Period. Just amazing equipment. Nuff said. Can't wait for the "trickle down" floorstanders ($21k) to be unveiled at CES (they were in the TAD room but mocked up).
* Jones Audio amps and new preamp, coupled to the Revel Salon 2's. Dunno why, but this room seemed somewhat untreated, low light and no real fancy setup....just glorious music that was well imaged and a deep soundstage. the Jones amps aren't cheap ($25k-ish) but are beautiful to look at, and sound even better. And I'm not normally a Revel fan.
* Veloce and YG. I came to this room with a huge bias against YG Acoustics (have heard the big ones before but never understood the market fever...kinda like Magico and Wilson, frankly, to me). But a friend on CA has the Carmels and swears by them so I gave them another try. Well, this room produced a very deep soundstage and a really nice overall feel. I get it now. These were the Kipod's (some other model suffix, too, but I forget, too many to remember) and were now on my radar. The battery-powered Veloce equipment was obviously nice, too. Kudos!
* Estelon and Bricasti. Wow, gorgeous white speaker towers (I would never choose white until now!) with sensual lines and textures. They are made from marble dust! And all ceramic drivers, etc. Big bucks..but a big deal. They produced music from the Bricasti DAC that was effortless and deep.
* Rob Robinson's (Channel D, Pure Vinyl, Pure Music) afterhours party in Room 411! Yes, I can be bought by food, wine, Italian women (Rob's wife is the best), and great music and discussion. The system was mostly demonstrating how, with a $600 Duet2 AD/DA box one could have an incredible phono setup, whether listening or ripping. The theory, among others, is that the RIAA curve in digital has huge distortion advantages over doing it in analog, and gains digital headroom (bits and resolution) too. We also used the brand new dSC DSD-over-USB discovery on the Debussy DAC to compare my DSDIFF files to my PCM conversions (no contest) to Pure Music's on-the-fly DSD-to_PCM conversions. Net/net, until I get a pure DSD DAC playback solution I will let PM do all the work. Oh, and Rim educated us on the best of great opera. Rob and his wife were gracious hosts.
* Joe and Bill's Purity Audio room. The sound was ok but shrill, IMO, until Sunday afternoon, and then it locked in very very nicely. The well treated room was clearly ready for great music. I only wish I has stuck around for a couple of the amp swaps...sounds like good things happened. And the main reason it is in my list is cuz it was just comfortable being there. No snobs, no "sorry, can't play your music, too complicated", no shushing (or conversely, incredibly loud conversations in the back). Just some folks enjoying music and trying to tweak to get more better!
* Bruce Brown's room up on 8000. I spent too little time in there but it's clear the Usher Mini Dancers are easily a best-buy of the show. Bruce was playing great DSD and analog tapes, and all was well in that room.
* the "several inches between my ears" room. Over at Canjam I was asked by my dear buddy and new father, David Kimmel aka rydenfan (Miles Wayne Kimmel born Sunday, October 17th, 7 lbs!!!...an RMAF baby!!! ) to check out several headphones and amp combos. I stumbled upon easily my favorite (within budget), the Woo Audio WA6 amp, and a pair of Audeze LCD-2 Ref 2 cans. Nice!! Can tube roll and everything. Very nice. And congrats to Adrienne, David and the newest Miles Davis fan, Miles Kimmel.
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SACD of Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Chad's release is both breathtaking and a breath of fresh air, the latter for being $30
Where do you find this? I think it's $35 + exhorbitant shipping where it will be available at all.
I'm really sorry I missed the Jones Audio / Revel Salon 2 room. I thought Kevin Voecks' demo of the Studio 2's with ML electronics was very good.
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SACD of Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Chad's release is both breathtaking and a breath of fresh air, the latter for being $30
Where do you find this? I think it's $35 + exhorbitant shipping where it will be available at all.
Sorry, $35 instead of $30. ?? My point was that it's much better than wading through a freaking $150 box set of mostly re-hashed or live material I don't really need to own, plus some lossy Dolby surround material. You don't think so?
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Pez and Tyson - thanks for coming in and beating our speakers to death... :lol:
One thing I would suggest is to list your personal systems as a point of reference for those reading your comments. Thanks for acknowledging your biases as well - we all have them whether we admit it or not.
:oops:
So my 'reference' system (ie MY system) is listed to the left under 'system' it is up to date for the most part. I have added a bit here and there.
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Does anyone remember the name of the company that had the excellent $999 bookshelf speakers? They called their room "the cure." The speakers developed an tremendous amount of base for a small-boxed speaker.
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Does anyone remember the name of the company that had the excellent $999 bookshelf speakers? They called their room "the cure." The speakers developed an tremendous amount of base for a small-boxed speaker.
Sjöfn HiFi - The Clue?
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Yes, that's it. Thanks.
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They also had complimentary shots of good Bourbon and Rolling Rock Beers. 8)
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Not to toot our own horns, but I can't help but notice that all the other 'mainstream' websites and magazines are just now getting around to posted RMAF coverage. Old news eh? 8) 8) 8)
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Not to toot our own horns, but I can't help but notice that all the other 'mainstream' websites and magazines are just now getting around to posted RMAF coverage. Old news eh? 8) 8) 8)
you guys did a great job, not only did you cover more rooms than anybody but unlike most of the "mainstream' press you actually braved the elevators in the tower to cover the 9-11th floors!
of course you knew where the booze was..... :D
but really, I saw at the end of each day how hard you guys worked! Jason, a big thanks for the help with room treatment, and breakdown etc.
on a somber note I don't think my 1030 room will be happening again, the elevator issue was over the top this year (for the third year in a row), so I don't know what my involvement in RMAF will be next year?
thanks,
lou
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Pez and Tyson, simple question, can you actually enjoy the show in the same way, when you are under pressure to write detailed feedback? I don't think I would be able to.
I went to RMAF once in 09 and I'll never go again, it's just too expensive from Europe. Unless we have another recession and they give international flights away for the cost of the taxes alone. No I am not wishing another recession on us. It was the best show I have been to by a country mile and your reporting has helped bring it all back.
Maybe I'll go to the Munich High End Show next year. Not so much fun, but better beer, I would think. Don't get me started on the commercial beers you guys are forced to survive on.
Thanks Again David
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Pez and Tyson, simple question, can you actually enjoy the show in the same way, when you are under pressure to write detailed feedback?
Honestly for me the answer is no. It isn't as enjoyable when I am more worried about getting great photos. By the time I'm done getting them taken and downloaded we have been in the room for about 5 minutes or so. We spent about 10-15 minutes per room so that leaves maybe 5-10 minutes to get in a good listen. During that time I've got my nose in the iPad typing up impressions I've been gathering. Almost 0 time for me to just sit and enjoy what I'm hearing.
That said, it doesn't mean I'm not having fun. For me it's different. Every once in a while I'll hear something that really gets me like the Kimber Room or the TAD room and I'll actually find myself in awe of what I'm hearing. Those moments are just as special as the times I'm not covering the show. Those are the rooms that I would have enjoyed no matter what anyway. Also remember I get to go to this show every single year. And every year is better than the last. So in a sense it's kind of old hat for me. I still get giddy like a 5 year old at christmas time.
The biggest part of RMAF is always the people. Meeting everyone from AC and the manufacturers I've known for years is wonderful and nothing that I can think of takes away from that.
Aside from having my Beyerdynamics DT880s lost/stolen ( :duh: ) I'd say it was mostly fun.
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Lou,
You may want check out the rooms over the other side (Atrium) for next year.
Less stairs to climb if needed. :)
I had to give up going over to the Tower side to check out my friends' rooms (Positive Feedback,...) due to the long wait for the elevators and when 2 of them stopped working, I went back to our room after almost 30min. waiting. :(
you guys did a great job, not only did you cover more rooms than anybody but unlike most of the "mainstream' press you actually braved the elevators in the tower to cover the 9-11th floors!
of course you knew where the booze was..... :D
but really, I saw at the end of each day how hard you guys worked! Jason, a big thanks for the help with room treatment, and breakdown etc.
on a somber note I don't think my 1030 room will be happening again, the elevator issue was over the top this year (for the third year in a row), so I don't know what my involvement in RMAF will be next year?
thanks,
lou
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I'll say this about room treatments: don't say anything at all! No need. A manufacturer shouldn't need to have this explained to them.
The line has been drawn. The one's who get it, at the next show, they'll have fully broken in gear on day one and have thoughtfully planned for and executed room and power treatments that let their gear shine.
The one's who think their speakers somehow require none (I am lmao at this thread, I can't believe some manufacturers are suggesting EQ, or that little magic boxes or brass bowls are preferable to a robust treatment), will obviously have horrible sounding rooms in comparison to those who took care.
If I was a manufacturer, I'd make sure that room was dialed out. I'd want to showcase my wares in the most optimal conditions possible.
Duh?
I really want to make it out next year. It will be my first audio show. Definitely want to come. I think the first room I'll beeline to is the GR room and I can estimate it will be my reference.
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Finally posting to somewhere in all this, as I have a question to add, but first. . .
Pez, Tyson, thank you. I couldn't get things lined up quick enough with work to make the trip happen. I am very grateful to you guys (and everyone else adding pics/impressions/info) for taking on the effort to do this.
That said, my question:
Lou, Hugh, elevator situation (multiple years)? Please elaborate if you would for someone who has never made it to the show? If the elevators are having problems, is part of the venue cut off or is there some other way (that needs to be better advertised?) to get around everywhere?
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Riding on the elevators was a cross between a roller coaster ride and the horror house.
:tempted:
Bob
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Pez, Tyson - I'd like to add my sincere thanks for your candid reporting. As another who couldn't get break away from my gig to make it, I enjoyed living vicariously through your photos and comments. btw - Pez, I recently posted on the Athenas in the Daedalus circle, fyi. Peace ~
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I took the stairway, much quicker and you get your exercise.
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Tom, what's the name of that Buddy Holly CD you had playing at LSAF year before last? Thanks. Say hello to your Mrs. for me.
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If the elevators are having problems, is part of the venue cut off or is there some other way (that needs to be better advertised?) to get around everywhere?
I didn't know the elevators were having such problems. I always took the stairs but not everyone is comfortable or capable of climbing 10 or 11 floors. The stairs on the ground floor are outside to the right of the elevators, usually the door is propped open. Moving equipment with a wonky elevator has to be a real pain.
Wayne
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Jonathon,
Actually, it's not really a problem at all.
Most of the times, I found the stairs to be quicker, at least over the Atrium side since it's only 5 stories. :)
It's a fun event so one should at least goes once.
Finally posting to somewhere in all this, as I have a question to add, but first. . .
Pez, Tyson, thank you. I couldn't get things lined up quick enough with work to make the trip happen. I am very grateful to you guys (and everyone else adding pics/impressions/info) for taking on the effort to do this.
That said, my question:
Lou, Hugh, elevator situation (multiple years)? Please elaborate if you would for someone who has never made it to the show? If the elevators are having problems, is part of the venue cut off or is there some other way (that needs to be better advertised?) to get around everywhere?
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Thanks for the reply, Hugh. Not saying I don't (hopefully) have it on the list of things to do to get to RMAF one of these years, but I was curious because Lou's reply sounded like it put a damper on his intentions for further events. Considering how highly praised his presence was in all the rooms showcasing his products based on the excellent AC coverage of the event, it would be a shame if something so trivial that the venue should have under control could turn away someone bringing a lot to the show.
I really do need to somehow get it in the schedule to get to this show. There are a bunch of folks here on AC that I would like to get to meet, and I would also like to get in touch with some of the folks from back in the va321 days.
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It's a fun event so one should at least goes once.
RMAF is like a potato chip....you can't have just one. Last year was my first year and after that experience, there was no way I was missing it this year. If I hadn't been there last year, there was a good chance I was not going to go this year as I was totally burned out from the flood in September. It was last year's experience that made me come back again this year and I will be there next year and hopefuly more years to come. :D
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on a somber note I don't think my 1030 room will be happening again, the elevator issue was over the top this year (for the third year in a row), so I don't know what my involvement in RMAF will be next year?
thanks,
lou
What issues did you have?
This is too bad since I spent at least 20 minutes in 1030, part of the time listening to "Old Man" from Massey Hall. I really felt I was actually back in 1971 in the hall.
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Tom, what's the name of that Buddy Holly CD you had playing at LSAF year before last? Thanks. Say hello to your Mrs. for me.
Hi Jim, Buddy Holly, From the original master tapes. You can get it on Ebay for $2 or less. Good to hear from you.
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Thanks, Tumas, believe I will. That was so good in your room.
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Does anyone remember the name of the company that had the excellent $999 bookshelf speakers? They called their room "the cure." The speakers developed an tremendous amount of base for a small-boxed speaker.
To say "for a small-boxed speaker" is an understatement. Flat to 28Hz depending on room construction. Yikes. The fastest, most tonally correct bass response I heard at the show compared to even most uber $ floorstanders. (the clue) FTW. :thumb:
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To say "for a small-boxed speaker" is an understatement. Flat to 28Hz depending on room construction. Yikes. The fastest, most tonally correct bass response I heard at the show compared to even most uber $ floorstanders. (the clue) FTW. :thumb:
That was about the only room I never went into. The room was always way overcrowed every time I went by. Standing room only and you would have had to stand in front of someone.
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That was about the only room I never went into. The room was always way overcrowed every time I went by. Standing room only and you would have had to stand in front of someone.
sounds like a good sign. :thumb:
i am curious about speakers that have to be within 2" of the rear wall...
doug s.
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sounds like a good sign. :thumb:
i am curious about speakers that have to be within 2" of the rear wall...
doug s.
The show special was $995, retail $1500. You might call the company and see if they will honor the show special. Sometimes these companies will.
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sounds like a good sign. :thumb:
i am curious about speakers that have to be within 2" of the rear wall...
doug s.
Doug, they were very impressive speakers. Tremendous and shocking bass output into the 20's. I bet you would be impressed with them, too.
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The show special was $995, retail $1500. You might call the company and see if they will honor the show special. Sometimes these companies will.
http://www.sjofnhifi.com/servlet/Categories?category=%28the+clue%29+loudpseakers
if i were in the market, and were gonna be buying $1k speakers w/o having a prior audition, i would pick the sam1's first. two reasons - coax mid/tweet, and not having to be 2" or less from the rear wall. it seems both designs try to limit the room's effect; i think keeping the speakers away from the wall will work better for overall soundstaging. now, if my room were such that near-wall placement was required, i may re-think my wiews...
doug s.
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Doug, they were very impressive speakers. Tremendous and shocking bass output into the 20's. I bet you would be impressed with them, too.
scott, did you get to hear the sam1's?
doug s.
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That doesn't ring a bell. Who makes them?
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What issues did you have?
This is too bad since I spent at least 20 minutes in 1030, part of the time listening to "Old Man" from Massey Hall. I really felt I was actually back in 1971 in the hall.
please don't get me wrong, I love that show, the best part for me is just seeing all the people who have become friends. I even had to make special trips to Denver the last two years in the summer primarily to hang with some of these great people (including our wonderful Marjorie).
on the business side it is VERY expensive for the big room, and the last three years the elevators have become progressively more of an issue. this year by late sat. people were avoiding the upper floors of the tower. this meant limited press coverage etc. I've heard of some people who were trapped in those elevators for almost an hour!
many of us in this forum know that when an electrical motor is overworked it never comes back to full power and each time it's capacity is diminished. my hope is that the hotel will replace the motors with a higher rating and next year people will have quick easy access to the upper floors.
in any event I will likely look at a different room in another part of the hotel, I feel like it is time for a change. also I am planning on doing more shows around the country ( already good for Newport Beach, and am considering Wash. DC) any suggestions????
thanks,
lou
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That doesn't ring a bell. Who makes them?
aj in fla - soundfield audio monitor 1's
thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97955.0
doug s.
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please don't get me wrong, I love that show, the best part for me is just seeing all the people who have become friends. I even had to make special trips to Denver the last two years in the summer primarily to hang with some of these great people (including our wonderful Marjorie).
on the business side it is VERY expensive for the big room, and the last three years the elevators have become progressively more of an issue. this year by late sat. people were avoiding the upper floors of the tower. this meant limited press coverage etc. I've heard of some people who were trapped in those elevators for almost an hour!
many of us in this forum know that when an electrical motor is overworked it never comes back to full power and each time it's capacity is diminished. my hope is that the hotel will replace the motors with a higher rating and next year people will have quick easy access to the upper floors.
in any event I will likely look at a different room in another part of the hotel, I feel like it is time for a change. also I am planning on doing more shows around the country ( already good for Newport Beach, and am considering Wash. DC) any suggestions????
thanks,
lou
strongly consider washington dc's capital audiofest. :thumb:
doug s.
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Yes, I heard them in the DC show. I liked them a lot but thought they are butt ugly. They are in a completely different league from the Sjoens. The Sjoens are small bookshelf type monitors, designed to be close to the back wall.
butt ugly? they look like almost any other two-way monitor, to me. except, of course my beautiful ebony proac tablette reference 8 signatures! :lol:
seriously, the sam1's are only ~2" taller/wider/deeper than the sjofn speakers. yes, i know the sjofn's are designed to be placed against a wall. that would be a non-starter for me, tho i know for many it is what makes them attractive...
thanks,
doug s.
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sounds like a good sign. :thumb:
i am curious about speakers that have to be within 2" of the rear wall...
doug s.
The Clue is designed to be boundary coupled to the wall, with the direct energy from the driver + front port + floor bounce + boundary reinforcement to get the low end extension. Stand height is supposed to be from 19-22" to maximize this effect. It's by design.
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The show special was $995, retail $1500. You might call the company and see if they will honor the show special. Sometimes these companies will.
My understanding is the (the clue)'s price is steady at $999. Sjofn HiFi decided not to jack the price up after last year's RMAF.
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(the clue) put out a lot more bass than I thought a small speaker should be capable of. I was impressed. The speakers had a wide soundstage too. A more detailed review based on a short audition in a hotel room would be impossible.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.net/RMAF2011/the_clue.jpg)
Wayne
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(the clue) put out a lot more bass than I thought a small speaker should be capable of. I was impressed. The speakers had a wide soundstage too. A more detailed review based on a short audition in a hotel room would be impossible.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.net/RMAF2011/the_clue.jpg)
Wayne
The Clue has had some great reviews since last year's introduction:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue53/clue.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue53/clue.htm)
http://www.stereophile.com/content/clue-sjofn-hifi (http://www.stereophile.com/content/clue-sjofn-hifi)
and many posts by bloggers and press since RMAF last weekend.
and, yes, I do own a pair.
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My understanding is the (the clue)'s price is steady at $999. Sjofn HiFi decided not to jack the price up after last year's RMAF.
yes, per my link above, you can order direct from sjofn for $999.
doug s.
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yes, per my link above, you can order direct from sjofn for $999.
doug s.
If anyone can cite a better $/sound ratio at many multiples the cost, I'm listening. Hegel is in the ballpark: crazy sound for the money from across the pond.
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Anything Fritz makes is better than the clue IMO. Albeit I did not get the opportunity to hear them this year. I did hear them last year. They were good, but Fritz is better.
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Clue is OK, based on what I heard last year, but Pez is right - Fritz has the magic.
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Yes, I heard them in the DC show. I liked them a lot but thought they are butt ugly.
The production version SAM1s aren't too shabby looking?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=52819)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=52820)
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butt ugly? they look like almost any other two-way monitor, to me. except, of course my beautiful ebony proac tablette reference 8 signatures! :lol:
seriously, the sam1's are only ~2" taller/wider/deeper than the sjofn speakers. yes, i know the sjofn's are designed to be placed against a wall. that would be a non-starter for me, tho i know for many it is what makes them attractive...
thanks,
doug s.
I mistook them for a different speaker and have humbly and sheepishly removed my "ugly" comment. I hope you will do the same. Thanks. :oops:
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That isn't the speaker I was thinking of when I made my comment. It was a speaker with 2 different sized baffles and no cabinet. Sorry for my confusion.
ah, you musta been referring to these:
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/070911Soundfield-600.jpg)
did you get to hear the little ones?
doug s.
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Yes, those. I hope they were intended to be prototypes only, not production models.
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Yes, those. I hope they were intended to be prototypes only, not production models.
Hi Scott, yes those were the production models. I was going to call them "Bride of Frankenstein".
Ok, just kidding, they were "surgically enhanced", indeed prototypes only :wink:.
Forgive me for forgetting you were at Capfest, did you introduce yourself in the room? I didn't play the M1's until Sunday FYI. Now, at RMAF, those were all I brought. Can't seem to find my Linda Oneil shots, so I figured the next best would be this:
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/AJinFLA/lonewolfRMAF2011.jpg)
No Mona Lisa, but hopefully not "butt ugly" either. :lol:
(the speakers i.e.)
cheers,
AJ
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AJ,
Yes I was in your room and listened to the speakers but you were involved in conversation with some other guys so I didn't interrupt. That's probably why I didn't get the word that they were prototypes. I apologize for my very poor choice of words to describe them. Be sure to post photos of the final version so that I can eat some more crow!
Scott
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AJ,
Yes I was in your room and listened to the speakers but you were involved in conversation with some other guys so I didn't interrupt.
Interrupt me next time :wink:.
That's probably why I didn't get the word that they were prototypes. I apologize for my very poor choice of words to describe them. Be sure to post photos of the final version so that I can eat some more crow!
I was probably explaining to them why there would never be a "production" version to a speaker with a rotatable, remote variable cardioid bass system, etc, etc...so don't look for one anytime soon :lol:.
Btw, not sure if this has been posted, but the photographer from Audiiogon finally posted a bunch of pics (or maybe I missed them earlier).
http://live.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ces.pl?&&RoomList&MT&st41&&&&&RMF11 (http://live.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ces.pl?&&RoomList&MT&st41&&&&&RMF11)
So I had to include the mandatory gratuitous shot from a real photographer (unlike me) :lol:
(http://live.audiogon.com/i/rmf2011/f/1319424741.jpg)
cheers,
AJ