AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: morganc on 12 Sep 2019, 03:43 pm
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So far I am loving the M3TM with the sysnergy of components that many of you here have heard and recommended!
At this moment I have the M3TM with:
Cherry King Stereo Maraschino
AntiCable Speaker Cables, USB, and IC's
Auralic Mini Aries Streamer
MHDT Atlantis DAC
My Question: What is the weak link at this moment in my system? It is sounding better and The system has improved dramatically with the change in Amps. I know that Anticables and Spatial Do shows together, so my question is: For those who use Cherry Amp with Spatial, what DAC are you running, which ones did you try, and which do you prefer and why, what improved? I am asking as I have not heard a Spatial system before fully dialed in and I want to know the best that this can sound and do not need to try every separate change myself, as many of you have better ears that I do!
Thoughts are appreciated, generic DAC recommendations from those with completely different systems not needed.
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Your system is a lot like mine, I have...
Spatial M3ts
Cherry King Mono amps (48v)
Auralic Aries Mini (the built in DAC sucks)
As for cables, I do not particularly care for Anti cables, Blue Jeans Cables etc. I’ve tried them and IMO better cables are worth the extra money. BUT cables are the last thing I address as a finishing touch to maximize system potential.
I don’t know anything about your DAC, but I am quite happy with my Nuprime DAC-10. However I am very, very curious about the Cherry DAC, mainly because of what the Sumoking (another forum member whose judgement I trust) said about it in comparison to the Exogal Comet. Like the Cherry amps, I’m certain the Cherry DACs are equally amazing in terms of performance and value. Just ask the Sumoking what he thinks!
Unfortunately like the Cherry amps, Cherry DACs go largely unnoticed by people willing to pay a lot more for a lot less due to ignorance and the tremendous influence the audio press has; who by the way have an obligation to their sponsors who provide them with advertising revenue etc. I’m glad Tommy doesn’t participate in that game.
Any magazine or website that reviews audio gear cannot be trusted if their survival depends on advertising income, favours, back room deals made behind closed doors etc. This is an overt conflict of interest that should be OBVIOUS to everyone.
One final area worth looking at is upgrading the stock crossover with better parts. Many people do this with various speakers and there is at least one forum member who went down that path with the M3ts. If I’m not mistaken he did a series of cap upgrades over time that cost him around $1000. Every time he replaced a stock part with a much higher quality part, the improvement vs price was deemed by him to be well worth it.
If I didn’t live in Canada, but a lot closer to Texas, I’d bring or ship my speakers to Danny Richie at GR Research and have him overhaul the crossover from the ground up. I don’t mean any disrespect to Clayton, but the crossover in almost every speaker on the market is a compromise based on cost constraints. There are a number of threads, including before and after pictures with measurements on this subject here on AC and elsewhere on the web.
Personally I wouldn’t worry about voiding the warranty. The drivers are not fused or protected by any means and Clayton wouldn’t provide a 20 year warranty if he had any doubt about the durability of the drivers.
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I am using Auralic Aeries G2. Your source should be upgraded prior to other components. Just my 2 cents.
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I am using Auralic Aeries G2. Your source should be upgraded prior to other components. Just my 2 cents.
Have you compared the G2 to the Mini ? Or perhaps to a Lumin?
I had the Gen 1 Aries but never have had side by Side A/B testing. Would love to hear from anyone who has in this or any system.
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Your system is a lot like mine, I have...
Spatial M3ts
Cherry King Mono amps (48v)
Auralic Aries Mini (the built in DAC sucks)
As for cables, I do not particularly care for Anti cables, Blue Jeans Cables etc. I’ve tried them and IMO better cables are worth the extra money. BUT cables are the last thing I address as a finishing touch to maximize system potential.
I don’t know anything about your DAC, but I am quite happy with my Nuprime DAC-10. However I am very, very curious about the Cherry DAC, mainly because of what the Sumoking (another forum member whose judgement I trust) said about it in comparison to the Exogal Comet. Like the Cherry amps, I’m certain the Cherry DACs are equally amazing in terms of performance and value. Just ask the Sumoking what he thinks!
Unfortunately like the Cherry amps, Cherry DACs go largely unnoticed by people willing to pay a lot more for a lot less due to ignorance and the tremendous influence the audio press has; who by the way have an obligation to their sponsors who provide them with advertising revenue etc. I’m glad Tommy doesn’t participate in that game.
Any magazine or website that reviews audio gear cannot be trusted if their survival depends on advertising income, favours, back room deals made behind closed doors etc. This is an overt conflict of interest that should be OBVIOUS to everyone.
One final area worth looking at is upgrading the stock crossover with better parts. Many people do this with various speakers and there is at least one forum member who went down that path with the M3ts. If I’m not mistaken he did a series of cap upgrades over time that cost him around $1000. Every time he replaced a stock part with a much higher quality part, the improvement vs price was deemed by him to be well worth it.
If I didn’t live in Canada, but a lot closer to Texas, I’d bring or ship my speakers to Danny Richie at GR Research and have him overhaul the crossover from the ground up. I don’t mean any disrespect to Clayton, but the crossover in almost every speaker on the market is a compromise based on cost constraints. There are a number of threads, including before and after pictures with measurements on this subject here on AC and elsewhere on the web.
Personally I wouldn’t worry about voiding the warranty. The drivers are not fused or protected by any means and Clayton wouldn’t provide a 20 year warranty if he had any doubt about the durability of the drivers.
Thank you.
1. Not gonna upgrade the speakers as that's more expensive than just getting a newer model. I know that would make them better, and great idea, it's just costly with little ROI upon resale.
2. The Cherry Dac sounds good, but I have to buy two boxes and a Spidf cable and a new, longer USB cable....I may try it, but it gets complicated and expensive quickly!
3. Just for the record, what cables do you like? You obviously have great ears and I love your recommmendations so far!
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If you happen to have more than one pair of speaker cables around, try the Schroeder method (on the web) of doubling up your cables (both for sp. and IC's). Sounds crazy, but to my ears it works.
If you have not used Iso-Acoustics products, I highly recommend them for the speakers AND for ANY (and every) component. Your ears will thank you.
Finally, I thought I would not need my homemade Shakti Hallowgraphs seeing that the speakers were open baffle, but with the "controlled directivity" of the product--sometimes the sound (for me) is a little TOO direct and it makes a huge difference when you can alter the soundstage via the Hallographs. If you can work with wood you can build a pair.
good luck!
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Your DAC should be the last thing you replace. MHDT DACs are extremely musical and punch well above their weight.
Shakey
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Your DAC should be the last thing you replace. MHDT DACs are extremely musical and punch well above their weight.
Shakey
Thanks! I just found a killer deal on an Auralic Aries LE Femto, so I will get a chance to A/B that with the Mini and upgrade it.
Appreciate all your help guys.
Morgan
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3. Just for the record, what cables do you like? You obviously have great ears and I love your recommmendations so far!
I’m using TEO Liquid IC’s and Cerious Graphene Extreme SC’s. I’ve tried a few different PC’s ranging in price from $100 to $1000 with various amps and sources both tube and SS and TBH I wasn’t the least bit impressed with any of them.
Most cable companies have a trial period so it’s something you can explore without being locked in if you’re willing to pay full price. Used cables are a lot cheaper, but I have yet to see anyone offer a trial period as such.
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I’m using TEO Liquid IC’s and Cerious Graphene Extreme SC’s. I’ve tried a few different PC’s ranging in price from $100 to $1000 with various amps and sources both tube and SS and TBH I wasn’t the least bit impressed with any of them.
Most cable companies have a trial period so it’s something you can explore without being locked in if you’re willing to pay full price. Used cables are a lot cheaper, but I have yet to see anyone offer a trial period as such.
I'll keep my eyes peeled for some of these. The key to amazing synergy for me is: I don't pay full price for anything. I assemble entire systems and often sell them for the same price I paid as I'm patient and well educated thanks to y'all.
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Please, please, please - don’t take my word for anything. You could come to a different conclusion. Even used, those cables are still relatively pricey. And I cannot guarantee that there aren’t better options for less money. Having said that I am happy with my cables, and yes I bought them new meaning I paid full price. :D :D
However.... if I was in the market for cables, I’d take a good look (and listen) at the offerings by Audio Envy (https://audioenvy.com/store/Url). All of their cables are very competitively priced and they have a reputation for spanking far more costly cables in terms of performance. I also know someone (whose judgement I trust) who also has Cherry amps with Spatial speakers who thinks very highly of every cable he’s has tried by Audio Envy.
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Agree on the Audio Envy recommendation as I am using them in the Main system now. Another good choice at a fair price is Audio Sensibility in Toronto. Both companies have trial periods and AS almost always has a sale coupon on top of the difference in the two dollar valuations.
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The aries mini probably is the weakest link now. When I considered my source, the mini was on consideration, but side by side with the sotm sms200 made me decide on the latter. I am now using the sms200 trifecta with a txusb and a modded switch.
Apart from system synergy, I've realised that m4tm has a slight dip in 1500-2500 hz compared to the rest of the freq. I originally thought it was the room and equipment, but come to realise it's the tweeter. Anyone experience something like that in their setups? It's not a huge dip (2-3db), and it definitely is something I can live with, just that the dynamic swing is a little weird. Like you expect it to go loud and sharp with bite, but suddenly it kind of peaks and gently gets there.
Sorry for the off topic since you were discussing system synergy, but I just wanted to put this into equation as sometimes you may think it's components not performing well enough, but it actually may be the speaker that is not capable of reproducing what your components are capable of.
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The aries mini probably is the weakest link now. When I considered my source, the mini was on consideration, but side by side with the sotm sms200 made me decide on the latter. I am now using the sms200 trifecta with a txusb and a modded switch.
Apart from system synergy, I've realised that m4tm has a slight dip in 1500-2500 hz compared to the rest of the freq. I originally thought it was the room and equipment, but come to realise it's the tweeter. Anyone experience something like that in their setups? It's not a huge dip (2-3db), and it definitely is something I can live with, just that the dynamic swing is a little weird. Like you expect it to go loud and sharp with bite, but suddenly it kind of peaks and gently gets there.
Sorry for the off topic since you were discussing system synergy, but I just wanted to put this into equation as sometimes you may think it's components not performing well enough, but it actually may be the speaker that is not capable of reproducing what your components are capable of.
I think this is perfectly appropriate and a useful topic as again I have not heard a fully optimized Spatial system, and the prior owner of my speakers did mention a dip in the Midrange. I'm curious now if this is reflected in the measurements?
And agree on the Aries mini, and am already on the upgrade path there.
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Agree on the Audio Envy recommendation as I am using them in the Main system now. Another good choice at a fair price is Audio Sensibility in Toronto. Both companies have trial periods and AS almost always has a sale coupon on top of the difference in the two dollar valuations.
Thanks Jack...do you have any idea what cables are the "specialty" in the lineup? I find that almost all companies have a house sound that is most expressed through a particular cable.
Ex: High Fidelity and IC's
Pete's Triode and PC's.
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The aries mini probably is the weakest link...
Only if one is using the Mini’s internal DAC via the analog outputs. But one has a separate and better DAC, they can feed the Mini’s digital output into their better DAC and thus bypass the weak link in the Mini, which is its own DAC. In that case I don’t see how anyone can claim the Mini is the weak link. :dunno:
FWIW I’ve compered the Mini with its digital output into my DAC vs red book CD into my DAC and found no appreciable difference. :D :D
I have also compared the Mini’s digital output into my DAC vs the Mini’s analog output and there was in fact a very significant difference with my preference going easily to my DAC. :D :D
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I've realised that m4tm has a slight dip in 1500-2500 hz compared to the rest of the freq. I originally thought it was the room and equipment, but come to realise it's the tweeter.
A 2 dB dip in that range isn’t something most people can perceive. Most speakers are +/- 3 dbs.
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Morgan in the system I am using the cables in I find the IC's and SC cables to have a similar sound. They are for the most a neutral cable with just a slight hint of warmth. I would just call Cap on the phone and talk to him.
As to the Aries Mini if you put it with a separate linear power supply like the TeraDak models on Ebay it is pretty hard to beat without spending significantly more money. I'm not sure how much better than that combo the LE will be.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-DC-30W-16V-1A-AURALIC-ARIES-mini-Linear-Power-Supply/183674253913?hash=item2ac3d6b259:g:BPoAAOSwvdxbt7Sd
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A 2 dB dip in that range isn’t something most people can perceive. Most speakers are +/- 3 dbs.
It's not a flat 2-3db dip, more like a sine wave of ups and downs all the way till 10khz. At 2500hz there was a 3db dip, but more severely from 1800-2200hz, where it drops as much as 4-7db.
What makes it so much more prominent is that across the mids (300-600hz), there are peaks of 5-10db, and at 1400hz (+5db), before that steep dip. This means that when Eva Cassidy sings Blue Skies, you'll hear it get loud and when it hits the chorus and ending, the same energy isn't there.
This doesn't only happen in my setup. Had a similar experience at a friend's place (he uses the M3TM, paired with a significantly better source - in the 5 digit range).
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Only if one is using the Mini’s internal DAC via the analog outputs. But one has a separate and better DAC, they can feed the Mini’s digital output into their better DAC and thus bypass the weak link in the Mini, which is its own DAC. In that case I don’t see how anyone can claim the Mini is the weak link. :dunno:
FWIW I’ve compered the Mini with its digital output into my DAC vs red book CD into my DAC and found no appreciable difference. :D :D
I have also compared the Mini’s digital output into my DAC vs the Mini’s analog output and there was in fact a very significant difference with my preference going easily to my DAC. :D :D
A source can be just a transport. Just bypassing the built in dac from the mini doesn't automatically mean all signals are the same. Sending a digital signal from let's say, my macbook pro, VS sending a digital signal in from my sotm txusb, was completely different. The latter yielding a huge improvement in terms of separation, timbre and tone, and way lower noise floor. Both are digital signals that feed into my dac, yet they sound completely different.
I also have an old Rega CDP, and feeding a digital coaxial from it into my dac also spawned differences - bass is not as tight, slightly less detailed, but mids and highs were smoother and more organic. It is this organic character that I find pure digital usb transports struggle to produce, and the higher end transports usually sound more natural and less digital.
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It's not a flat 2-3db dip, more like a sine wave of ups and downs all the way till 10khz. At 2500hz there was a 3db dip, but more severely from 1800-2200hz, where it drops as much as 4-7db.
What makes it so much more prominent is that across the mids (300-600hz), there are peaks of 5-10db...
Can you post an image of your measurements? I’m not an expert on this subject and I know in room response isn’t the same as anechoic, but I do recall Danny/GR Research saying something about measuring a speakers FR and that most people get it wrong.
Nonetheless I’m not doubting what you have found. I can hear certain tonal anomalies but I find the prevalence of those aberrations really depends on what I’m listening too. Some speakers are more linear than others and those that deviate more, especially in the mids never seem to sound right no matter what’s played. I do not find that to be the case with the M3ts.
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Just bypassing the built in dac from the mini doesn't automatically mean all signals are the same.
So what other devices have you compared to the Mini strictly in the capacity of handling the digital stream and with which DACs did you do this comparison? And is it fair to say that synergy or the lack thereof may matter between the two devices?
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Can you post an image of your measurements? I’m not an expert on this subject and I know in room response isn’t the same as anechoic, but I do recall Danny/GR Research saying something about measuring a speakers FR and that most people get it wrong.
Nonetheless I’m not doubting what you have found. I can hear certain tonal anomalies but I find the prevalence of those aberrations really depends on what I’m listening too. Some speakers are more linear than others and those that deviate more, especially in the mids never seem to sound right no matter what’s played. I do not find that to be the case with the M3ts.
Attaching a picture of my setup and the measurements, done using REW with the umik-1 mic. I know measurements are one thing, and they are being affected by my room/equipment/cables etc. Despite all that, I still think the m4tm does a lot of things right and it is still going to be with me for awhile (till I bite the bullet and get the x5)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198870)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198869)
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So what other devices have you compared to the Mini strictly in the capacity of handling the digital stream and with which DACs did you do this comparison? And is it fair to say that synergy or the lack thereof may matter between the two devices?
I only managed to try it against a chord hugo TT in a head-fi setting (audiovalve solaris amp + he1000 v2 headphones). Sure there might be lack of synergy, but usually synergy is more apparent/important between amp/speakers or dac/amp. For digital transport, I have yet to hear a good transport sounding bad due to lack of synergy with other dacs.
When Auralic came out with the Mini, I was quite excited because I liked how the Aries sounded with the Vega. But hearing the Mini for the first time (not optimised of course, definitely better with a lps), left me wanting a bit more. This wasn't the case with the stock sms200, and I haven't looked back since. I've always been a digital person and those simple 1s and 0s.. is actually a bitch to get it sounding right. I'm not saying the sms200 is the best transport, but in comparison to the mini, I think it edges it in resolution and dynamic punch as a pure transport.
Living in Singapore, I consider myself lucky to be able to hear a wide variety of setups at my fingertips. At least 6 friends live within a 5-10min drive, with vastly differently setups. Wilsons, GoldenEar, Kef, Vivid, Spendor, and also.. another Spatial owner :). A 10min walk from my office is a 4 storey shopping mall, dedicated to all sorts of high to ultra high end audio equipment. From budget 4-digit setups till those in the millions, I've had the opportunity to access and listen to all sorts of stuff quite easily.
Despite all this, I settled on Spatial Audio as my choice of speakers (contenders were the Gradient Helsinki and Boenicke W5). Clayton's design really checked many boxes for me, detailed bass without room interaction, wide open staging, minimalistic looking and quite affordable. Are they perfect? Of course not. But the things it does right far outweigh any shortcomings it might have. Do all my friends like how it sounds? Of course not! The open baffle sound takes time to get used to, and are seen as a kind of 'novelty' compared to regular boxed speakers. At the end of the day, it's more important I love them since they are what I come home to everyday :)
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Attaching a picture of my setup and the measurements, done using REW with the umik-1 mic. I know measurements are one thing, and they are being affected by my room/equipment/cables etc. Despite all that, I still think the m4tm does a lot of things right and it is still going to be with me for awhile (till I bite the bullet and get the x5)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198870)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198869)
As an REW user, (and previous owner of the M3TM's), I believe your measurements are being heavily influenced by the room.
Open baffle speakers are difficult to measure accurately to begin with, but most any speaker needs a minimum of 6ft to the nearest room boundary to get even close to accurate results.
Your results appear to be affected by "comb" effects. This is, at least partially, due to the gating used during data collection. ARTA is a bit more flexible with gating than REW. Thought REW does allow you to change the gating.
I don't currently have access to my M3TM measurements, but IIRC, there was a mild depression in the midrange, but they had generally smooth response. Are your measurements at 1 meter, on axis, or at the listening position?
Morgan, sorry to sidetrack your thread.
- Rick
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No Problemo on the side tracking......I am learning a lot from this thread.
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As an REW user, (and previous owner of the M3TM's), I believe your measurements are being heavily influenced by the room.
Open baffle speakers are difficult to measure accurately to begin with, but most any speaker needs a minimum of 6ft to the nearest room boundary to get even close to accurate results.
Your results appear to be affected by "comb" effects. This is, at least partially, due to the gating used during data collection. ARTA is a bit more flexible with gating than REW. Thought REW does allow you to change the gating.
I don't currently have access to my M3TM measurements, but IIRC, there was a mild depression in the midrange, but they had generally smooth response. Are your measurements at 1 meter, on axis, or at the listening position?
Morgan, sorry to sidetrack your thread.
- Rick
Hi Rick, thanks for your input! These measurements are done from my listening position. To everyone, these are NOT the actual response of the M4TM in an ideal measuring environment, on axis. This response is unique to my room, and its acoustics. I didn't overly smoothen the graph as I was trying to capture what I was facing in a 'real world' environment, with reflections and whatnot.
The other M3TM I heard was with listening position against the wall, speakers about 2ft from the front wall and sides that extend down the corridor, vastly different from my closed room setting. However, there was still that dip when it transits from the high mids to highs. Nevertheless, I will try to reach out to other Spatial owners in the country and see if I give their setups a listen.
Would you be able to suggest what I can do to improve the sound I'm getting? I've tried pulling the speakers further into the room, or closer together, added foam panels and whatnot, but every gain resulted in loss in other areas. This current position seems to be the best compromise, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears!
And yes, sorry Morgan for derailing the thread. I'm actually very curious how the Cherry amps sound in comparison to the Kinki. With Kinki, I got a taste of high end performance at a fraction of the price. No doubt not as refined as some high end offerings, but good enough to keep in this setup. Despite being accessible to many high end equipment, offerings from less mainstream brands always pique my interest, and these are the ones that aren't readily accessible here :(
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HanaEyes
I have owned the EX-M1 for over a year and in my Main system with both the Verity Otello's and the Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee's it doesn't take a back seat to any of the other amps that have been in that system including the PS Audio BHK pair that retail for over six times it's cost. I haven't tried it with the M3TM's in the other system but I am sure it would shine there too. It is everything the reviewers say it is.
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HanaEyes
I have owned the EX-M1 for over a year and in my Main system with both the Verity Otello's and the Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee's it doesn't take a back seat to any of the other amps that have been in that system including the PS Audio BHK pair that retail for over six times it's cost. I haven't tried it with the M3TM's in the other system but I am sure it would shine there too. It is everything the reviewers say it is.
I too have been an EX-M1 owner for over a year. Happy to report they pair wonderfully with the Spatials! But wow, impressive speakers you're pairing your Kinki with. A friend of mine had the Finn and Parsifal, paired with full Nagras which I must admit, sounded absolutely wonderful. But reading your comments have me even more convinced the Kinki is a keeper, and also suppressed my urge of trying the Cherries... for now :P
As good as the EX-M1 is, it certainly isn't without some shortcomings. At a friend's place, we did a side by side comparison against his Esoteric F-03A which costs $13,000. The Esoteric had a more extended and refined top end, higher resolution, and slightly more naturalness in the mids. Other aspects (soundstage, dynamics etc) were too close for me to confidently differentiate one amp from the other, which I see as a huge win for the Kinki.
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HanaEyes,
One quick suggestion. Try using the REW "monitor" function and use the pink noise generator. That way you should be able to see the live response, and "usually", a more accurate depiction of what you are hearing. REW is a great program, but can be a bit tricky to set up. Another "educational" exercise that can be a surprise experience is, use the signal generator to produce a 35-40hz tone, then walk around the room while it's playing. The null and resonance "zones" can be an eye opener if you've never experienced it.
Also, when moving the speakers position, I typically ignore the measured response, and go by my ears. I try to be very methodical with measurements (distance wise), and find that a half inch one way or the other can go from "meh" to VERY good.
I don't want to tie up this thread too much, plus "we" (wife and I) are on the return leg of Yellowstone / Tetons back to California.
I can PM you, if you wish, once we are home.
Cheers - Rick
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Back on Topic and Update:
Current System:
M3TM
Digital Amp: King Cherry Stereo
MHDT Atlantis DAC
IC: High Fidelity CT-1 Enhanced RCA
Streamer: Auralic Aries with LPS
So I changed the IC's from the Anti-Cables RCA's to a pair of HF CT-1E's and wow, huge improvement across the board! Massive improvement in all genres, tone, timbre, etc.
I then exchanged the Auralic Mini for the Auralic Aries with LPS and am loving the new upgrades. I did not fully do a detailed A/B the Auralic Mini to the Aries, but I have used the Aries in the past in my Super V system, and feel it is reference level if used with a good DAC. I may Go back and forth if I have the time, though I cannot imagine the that Aries with LPS could be inferior to the Mini without the LPS.
I am still using the Anti-Cable SC's as well as an AC USB Cable. I will likely A/B test a few more options there when funds become available and after selling off a bit of gear, and letting the current changes settle in. I do have a new 396A tube for the DAC on its way.
Would still like improvement on the bass ( I think the DAC tube will effect this) and its a little hot on the top end as well....
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So I changed the IC's from the Anti-Cables RCA's to a pair of HF CT-1E's and wow, huge improvement across the board! Massive improvement in all genres, tone, timbre, etc.
Not familiar with your new IC’s, but can’t say that I am surprised. Anti Cables and BJC are grossly overrated.
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You could try the speaker cables from Triode Wire Labs. These have awesome bass, great tone, details and a sweet top end without ever becoming fatiguing. Feel that Pete's SC are the least talked about in the TWL line-up but provides superb performance. They replaced cables that I previously used and still love, the Tellurium Q Ultra Blacks, and matches quite well in my setup.