AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: SteveFord on 14 Jul 2011, 09:02 pm
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Looks like the wait will be over
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48804)
The Mini Maggie was originally developed with 3.6 technology and the holdup was due to both filling backorders for the big ones and incorporating the latest advances.
This looks like it'll be a winner for them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48805)
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I need pictures....................yesterday.. ...
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That was quick - post modified!
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These things are going to be completely huge....I don't even have any use for them, yet I'm going to buy a set for sure :thumb:
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Those look like they'd be pretty sweet on my desk! Any idea on pricing?
Bryan
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I have already made a place for them on top of my twin 12x2 subs... can you say full range with sub lows.... I need them now.. I'll be driving to Roseville in 10 minutes, I hope some one is still in the shop...
Jon P
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I have already made a place for them on top of my twin 12x2 subs... can you say full range with sub lows.... I need them now.. I'll be driving to Roseville in 10 minutes, I hope some one is still in the shop...
Jon P
Pricing appears to be inside the above ad. but that includes subs... i just want panels, no subs... pricing???
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I'll see what I can find out for you.
Now that you mention it, I have a desk.
I'll paraphrase:
This is a package deal as the crossover point is way too high to integrate with a conventional (dynamic) subwoofer. We tried and it wouldn't work.
So, it's a three piece system, panels not available seperately.
I suppose that you could always keep the panels and sell the woofer by itself but if Magnepan says that it won't work right without it, I'd believe it.
I have one of the Magnepan panel woofers here and it goes from 40-200Hz and I have not tried it with my SVS subwoofer yet.
I have to get off my butt and try the panel woofer with my MMGs but I'm pretty sure those Mini Maggie panels will just make that combination sound pretty shabby by comparison.
The cover of Jethro Tull's Aqualung springs to mind...
While I think of it, this Mini Maggie System is going to be in very short supply for a bit.
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I wonder if these little minis would be an upgrade to a CC3 for use as a dual center speaker? Magnepan is always touting a dual and tri center, so for those of us with 3.6s or 3.7s, i wonder if throwing some mini's in the middle would be preferable to a single center? :scratch:
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I dunno - let me see if I can't get a professional opinion for you.
They're certainly going to open up a lot of possibilities.
I wonder how they stack up against the speakers in the thread that was just started the other day on desktop planars? What's needed is a Desktop Planar Shoot Out - it would be kind of like midget wrestling.
At any rate, one thing that they keep stressing is that you can't expect them to replace the larger models.
I guess that a few years back Wendell did a demo at a trade show with the speakers behind a curtain - everyone thought that they were the new 3.7s but it was just the Mini Maggies.
Ever since then he's been worrying that his demo was TOO effective and that people will expect them to replace the 1.7s or the 3.7s when they're simply too small to do so. Small ones can only take so much power and move so much air.
Guess we'll see but the feeling I get is that if the room is too small for 1.7s you'd want these and if you can squeeze in 1.7s, you'd want to go that route.
I have not heard them so this is just semi-educated speculation on my part.
I just reread the ad and the price dropped since I first heard about them getting ready to go - good deal.
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1. I can't find these on the website.
2. Will their be stands for them so you don't have to set them on a desk?
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For AJ Zepp's question:
No. A center channel speaker must carry 60-80% of the load. The Mini Maggie is only for desk top or small rooms
For Mr Bill, they probably won't be on the site for a bit until they get them really underway. These look like they have the oval bases similar to what the woofer has - they attach with two screws. Anything else would probably have to be a DIY effort which shouldn't be too difficult.
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Thanks for checking on that, Steve. I guess it's a good thing I'm one of the few who actually like the CC3 and how it integrates with my 3.6s lol
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Just wanted to add that I read somewhere that the crossover is built in to the woofer, so it's definitely a package deal.
Also -- Wendell emailed to say that while he's delighted at the interest in the Mini Maggies, he's very concerned that some people are getting the wrong idea and could end up disappointed because they'd be using them in a situation for which they weren't designed -- using a stove when you need a refrigerator. He says that the Mini Maggies are primarily super desktop speakers, a way of bringing the sound of the big systems to the desktop, rather than tiny replacements for the 1.7 or 3.7, and until Magnepan knows more about how people intend to use them as satellite systems, they are urging caution. So for now anyway, he's suggesting that people buy them for desktop use. He also said he plans to answer some of the questions people have been asking on their website.
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Magnepan is thinking desktop but headphones are fine for me here in front of the PC.
I'm thinking bedroom with them either swinging down from the ceiling and aimed at the bed or pivoting up from the footboard and aimed at the headboard.
I have a question in to Wendell to see if having the woofer on the same plane as the panels would work or not.
You should come over and listen to my stereo, my dear... 8)
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A Mini Review of the Mini Maggie.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20087052-47/radically-innovative-speakers-from-minnesota/?tag=mncol;txt
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It looks like production is about to get seriously underway:
We are getting the first reports from dealers on the Mini Maggie System. Here are some excerpts from Mark Ormiston, president of Definitive Audio in Seattle.
"I have it set up on my desk with a Peachtree Nova fed by my laptop. To say it is impressive would be the under statement of my career. Any performance clients that do any work at home or at the office while listening to ordinary "computer speakers" should have these on their desk. There is nothing else like it period. Reference sound on your desk for $1500. .......... This is THE cool product of the year and without question a must have for the performance enthusiast. So so cool.........
.............. Best new product for me since the Goldmund reference turntable when I was twenty four years old......
I would only use it as a desktop product. It does not have enough acoustic power for a full room and you miss the point of it being the ultimate near field monitor.............................It is a genius product that cannot be equaled by any dynamic cone driver."
I am sorry that we don't have enough Mini Maggies for everyone to get a demo set. Don't bother beating me up. Since the 1.7s, I have not been involved in shipping.
Wendell
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Also, the web site is up:
http://www.magnepan.com/model_mini_maggie
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Those look cool. Too bad I'll probably never be able to spend $1500 on desktop-only speakers. I'd probably just rock headphones. Heck, they make planar headphones, if I understand correctly.
But any of you deep pocketed gentleman can sure buy some of these and post impressions!
Meanwhile, my MMG's will be here in a matter of hours.. Agonizing over how to arrange my room. I think I'll wait till they get here. I have no idea what to expect. Well, I do, but merely ideas at this point.
But, on subject, it would be neat to see a review with this against other planar and desktop speakers.
There are a lot of high end ones out there.
For the same price, Dynaudio has a satellite, subwoofer based desktop system that just looks delicious. And it's a real subwoofer that comes with that one.
Then there's tha $1000 desktop planar someone else posted in that other thread.
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You'll love the MMG's. And they'll get a lot better as they break in.
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The reviews are starting to hit (see the Magnepan Stereo Speaker Reviews section) and now you know where the first run went - to the magazines for evaluation which comes as no surprise.
There's some other reviews coming which will deal with using them in a small room as a sub/satellite system which I think is how most people will end up using them, anyways.
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We are getting the first reports from dealers on the Mini Maggie System. Here are some excerpts from Mark Ormiston, president of Definitive Audio in Seattle.
"I have it set up on my desk with a Peachtree Nova fed by my laptop. To say it is impressive would be the under statement of my career. So so cool..........Best new product for me since the Goldmund reference turntable when I was twenty four years old."
Is that enough power for the Mini Maggies? I believe the Peachtree Nova is 80w/ch. so maybe the Mini Maggies are not power hungry like other Maggies.
If the Mini Maggies also crave power, how can you bi-amp the Mini Maggies using a more powerful amp for the woofer panel and a less powerful amp for the ribbon panels or must a single stereo amp handle all three panels?
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Looks like they're no more efficient than the big ones. Of course if you're at your desk and listening up close, you'll need less amp power. Whereas if you're listening in the far field, you could potentially need more power than you would with the larger models, since not being line sources after you get back a little bit the sound will fall off as the square of the distance rather than linearly. I doubt an 80 watt amp would be enough for far field listening, it certainly isn't for the big ones.
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I just took a look at the LEDs on my Harman Kardon Citation 22 amp and I'm using between 20 and 50W on my MMGs playing some orchestral Zappa at fairly loud listening levels.
There's headroom and dynamic peaks to consider but 80WPC RMS should be more than enough for something that's pretty much in your lap.
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Something that's often overlooked is that 500 watts sounds only twice as loud as 50 watts. Another thing is that when you figure peak levels, you're generally doing so for only a handful of the recordings you own -- the loudest point of the loudest Mahler symphony, etc. And never for pop, unless you're into destroying your hearing and breaking your lease, because the peak/average ratio isn't that high.
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Looks like they're no more efficient than the big ones.
So can you bi-amp the Mini Maggies like the big ones? I believe some people are even tri-amping their larger Maggies.
Are there any power levels that could damage the Mini Maggies? Is a 300B set amp too little and a 1000wpc Class D amp too much for the Mini Maggies? Is any speaker damage due to underpowered or overpowered amps covered under Magnepan's warranty?
Are there any estimates as to the relative power requirements for the woofer panel versus the tweeter/midrange panels
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So can you bi-amp the Mini Maggies like the big ones? I believe some people are even tri-amping their larger Maggies.
Are there any power levels that could damage the Mini Maggies? Is a 300B set amp too little and a 1000wpc Class D amp too much for the Mini Maggies? Is any speaker damage due to underpowered or overpowered amps covered under Magnepan's warranty?
Are there any estimates as to the relative power requirements for the woofer panel versus the tweeter/midrange panels
Suggest you ask these questions on the questions for the ask the factory thread at the top, I think most of us are as curious as you are. About all I know is that the crossover is located in the woofer, I imagine you can bypass it but I don't know how easy it is or what values you'd need. I do know that the Mini Maggies were shown at CES with a huge Bryston amp, 1000 watts/ch or something, and that they were running it hot.
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Copied from the Ask The Factory Section:
Thanks for getting some response from Magnepan. I was hoping to determine in advance what are the best amps for the Mini Maggies without being limited to the amp brands my dealer carries.
From scouring the websites I feel that there are two different themes for amps with Maggies. The first theme is that Maggies love high current and you can never give Maggies too much power. As a side note I seem to recall reading something about speakers being damaged by not enough power, whereas most people may believe that it is high power that may damage speakers. Thus I was trying to determine, all other things being equal, if a 500wpc amp is better for the Mini Maggies than a 1000wpc amp or should I step down further to a 200wpc amp?
The second theme from many people seems to be that Maggies love tube amps. I really don’t know if this is true or if people who convince themselves that solid state amps are better are deluding themselves to believe that a lower cost solid state amp sounds better when the reality is that many of these people cannot afford powerful tube amps.
Thus my interest in biamping comes from recommendations from other websites where someone is using moderately priced tube amps for the tweeters and midrange and very affordable solid state amps for the bass. I didn’t think I was trying to hotrod the Mini Maggies by biamping but now I can’t get it out of my mind that I am putting a 427 big block engine into a sexy Corvette Stingray instead of a stock 327 engine.
Perhaps Wendell’s response is a typical response from Magnepan that speaker mods are not recommended. But in all the Magnepan forums I see nothing but many users trying to mod, tweak and hotrod their Maggies, whether it is modding the frames, removing or changing fuses and biamping or triamping speakers.
Here's my take on things:
If you can afford them, go tubes.
If you can't or simply don't care for tubes, the guys here on AC can steer you to some really nice SS amps.
I picked up an old Harman Kardon Citation 22 and it sounds great with Maggies. The HK is around 200WPC which won't run out of steam too easily, my tube amps are 250 and 300WPC and don't run out of steam, either!
Too much power is better than too little as clipping is the killer.
I would throw some tubes in the mix somewhere along the line, though.
You should listen to Wendell on the new speakers as they spent a tremendous amount of time on the .7 series and there's very little that needs to be done other than hook them up and enjoy.
I think that's why the 1.7s met with so much resistance: there was nothing much that the home user could do to them while the 1.6s were a known commodity which could be tweaked with abandon.
The factory did some major changes with the current models but they certainly aren't going to be specific! I will say that messing with the crossovers is not a good idea as improvements are unlikely to result.
The real King of the Tweakers is the factory - they really have tried just about everything you could do with them. Some of the results they incorporated into the new speakers, some they rejected for a multitude of reasons (impractical, dubious results or it would make the speakers too expensive).
If they say biamping would screw up the phase response that means that they've tried it. They put a lot of effort into that area, BTW.
One last thought: I bought a tremendous preamp a few weeks ago (a heavily moddified Carver C1) and I didn't check all of the switches on the front when i first hooked it up as I was rather impatient to hear what all of the fuss was about.
Wouldn't you know it, I blew BOTH FUSES in my MMGs. What would have happened if I had removed the fuses? Probably nothing good.
P.S.
If you're sitting right on top of them, I would think a small tube integrated amp (Jolida?) would be just perfect.
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My budget for an amplifier is $2500 max. I thought perhaps the following amps might be good if I buy a new amp:
1. Vincent Audio SP-331 Hybrid Amp 300wpc for $1200
2. Wyred 4 Sound SX-500 550wpc for $1800
If I buy a used amp, I found the following online:
3. Audio Research M100 or VT100 100wpc for $2400
4. Conrad Johnson Premier One 200wpc for $2400
Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on using any of the above amps with Maggies? I believe Audio Advisor may offer a 30 day return policy on the Vincent Audio amp; I don't know if Wyred Audio offers any return policy other than something being defective; and I assume that any amps bought online are final sales with no guarantees.
I would prefer to be blown away or wowed by my amp purchase instead of buying an amp that is just adequate for the job, but perhaps that's not possible with my budget.
Any advice or recommendations?
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I saw the following nice amps on the 'Gon: Classe, Sanders, Mark Levinson (ML ? old but still a great amp). I didn't see any Bel Canto 1000s but they are usually available.
Also don't forget Odyssey and Digital Audio Company. Both of these companies have highly rated products and are also site sponsors.
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OK, well first of all, if you're using the Maggies as nearfield monitors, they just aren't going to need as much power as they would if you were listening at a significant distance. You're going to gain several dB of output level. So I don't think you need a supersized amp here, unless you like bleeding eardrums.
Tubes vs. transistors -- well, you'll find people on both sides. And in the middle, because there are ABX tests that suggest that with modern gear you can't tell the difference when you're listening within the linear range (not overloading them) and when you compensate for freq response variations in some tube gear. So I can only suggest you listen. I've found the sound of tubes very variable, anyway, much more so than solid state devices of a certain type. I've heard tubes that reminded me of a crystal goblet, and tubes that sounded like sandpaper. It really depends, or at least it did, when amps weren't as clean as they are today. To each their own.
Bi amping -- if you chose your own crossover type, you'd have to make sure you know what you're doing re integrating the three drivers, this is not straightforward as the woofer is widely separated from the midrange, the driver power response isn't consistent, and the design isn't axial. So you'd probably want to emulate the crossover in the Mini. We don't know what it is. You'd have to dissect the woofer to find out, or take measurements. I say leave the design work for them. Since these are nearfield monitors, it isn't as if you need the extra headroom bi-amping can provide. It really does seem like overkill in this particular application, like (to borrow your metaphor) putting a V-12 in a subcompact.
Re amps, a lot of people speak highly of the Wyred, but like everything, it's controversial. I do know the Premier One. It was a crystal goblet amp with wonderful imaging, remarkable for its time. But C-J stuff tended to be lush and euphonic, not neutral, and I'd say that's certainly true of the Premier One. You'd really have to hear this stuff, even if I'd heard all four I wouldn't know which you'd prefer.
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:duh: I forgot that we are discussing Mini Maggies. While my suggestions are still valid, they may be overkill.
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How about adding a second DWM woofer to the Mini Maggies? Is stereo separated bass be more desirable than centered combined bass? I'm not sure if this is an accurate description, but I assume that the DWM does not provide any stereo separation by itself but may tend to blend the separated tweeter/midrange panels together?
Since the DWM woofer has inputs for both L+R channels, does that mean that you have to feed signal to both L+R inputs for the DWM woofer to be fully energized? In otherwords, is there any reason to feed a mono signal to the L+R amp inputs on the DWM since nothing is being blended?
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I got that part of this thread was the jubilation over the long held relationship of tube amps and Magnepan speakers.
Which is cool, and maybe I'm a big idiot who has no idea what he's missing, but I'm more than willing to put my amp up against anyone in Wa state with tubes on a set of MMG's. My chip amp makes these things about get up and dance.
:D
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As one of my buddies said, "There's magic in those glowing bottles".
Try getting a tube buffer and see what that does for your system - if you don't like it you can always resell it but you might get hooked.
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How about adding a second DWM woofer to the Mini Maggies? Is stereo separated bass be more desirable than centered combined bass? I'm not sure if this is an accurate description, but I assume that the DWM does not provide any stereo separation by itself but may tend to blend the separated tweeter/midrange panels together?
Since the DWM woofer has inputs for both L+R channels, does that mean that you have to feed signal to both L+R inputs for the DWM woofer to be fully energized? In otherwords, is there any reason to feed a mono signal to the L+R amp inputs on the DWM since nothing is being blended?
Why not ask this in the ask that factory thread? I've wondered about some of these questions myself.
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Well, I just got my Warpspeed, and hearing them together for the first time (modded battery amp and battery LDR together) and right now sounding delicious. Apparently from all I've read about it on the DIYaudio threads, people are favoring it against some super pricey tube preamps. I know what my ears are telling me too.
Not so sure I need a tube anything at this point, but I will definitely see if I can try a tube buffer some time.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97379.msg1004548#msg1004548
But I am going to look at taking my level of dac as far as I can in the coming months. Battery is a must.
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.... Please bear in mind I say none of those things to be contrarian. It is my eventual goal to have an ultimate system, and if that means I need tubes, so be it. I only say those things because even now, as it stands I am getting fantastic sound quality from my amplification stage, and I can't imagine much more improvement from a quality standpoint, anything from here would be incremental, amp wise. I would bravely place my amp system against anything any of you have.
...It's just I've come across so many statements by users who prefered my amp versus such and such tube amp, or even the new ClassD amps, where users are claiming the long held advantages of tube amps are over.
I'm still learning, don't mean to step on toes. Could be I'll hear a nice tube amp and punch myself in the face.
I wish there was a Dodd inline buffer tour. I'm going to get a hold of that guy.
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.... Please bear in mind I say none of those things to be contrarian. It is my eventual goal to have an ultimate system, and if that means I need tubes, so be it. I only say those things because even now, as it stands I am getting fantastic sound quality from my amplification stage, and I can't imagine much more improvement from a quality standpoint, anything from here would be incremental, amp wise.
I too get what I consider to be fantastic sound quality out of my (ss) amps but I would urge you to try a few tube amps, just to see whether you like what they do to the sound. :) Not sure which Maggies you have, though, so can't suggest whether you need to go for a 100w amp or a 200w amp
It's just I've come across so many statements by users who prefered my amp versus such and such tube amp, or even the new ClassD amps, where users are claiming the long held advantages of tube amps are over.
Class D is no contender for good sound, IMO - simply lots of watts cheaply. :o
Regards,
Andy
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No no no, I'm not talking about plain old class d amps, I'm talking about the amp everyone's been raving about, the brand ClassD, I'm sure you've seen that monstrous thread that's here? I know an AC'er who could run any amp; he runs a battery powered ClassD and loves it.
I do intend to find a way to hear some tubes.
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Instead of doubling up MMGs (as I'm thinking about doing), I wonder how an MMG on the bottom with a Mini Maggie up top would sound? Someone needs to try this out to see if it would blend or stick out like a sore thumb.
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Instead of doubling up MMGs (as I'm thinking about doing), I wonder how an MMG on the bottom with a Mini Maggie up top would sound? Someone needs to try this out to see if it would blend or stick out like a sore thumb.
Some people add a small tweeter to line sources. But you're opening up a can of worms when you do that. For one thing, the drivers will have different radiation patterns, so you'll only be able to balance the speaker for a single listening distance. For another, does the Mini Maggie tweeter go low enough to meld with the MMG woofer? I think the crossover of the MMG is about 1000 Hz. You could make them three ways, using the Mini Maggie midrange and tweeter, but then I think you're going to have power response problems in the far field. You could use the MMG's tweeter and cross over a bit higher up, but then you're going to have two crossovers in the midrange, or else be crossing to the Minis so high that you'll lose some of the sonic advantages of the ribbon. I do know that you can cross the 2.x/r ribbons over at 1 kHz, but if you're going to get a 2.x/r, you might as well use it as a 2.x/r . . .
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Assuming I use two DWM woofers, what amp would be better for just the DWM woofers?
1. Vincent Audio SP-331 Hybrid Amp 300wpc for $1200
2. Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000 1140wpc for $2000
Does the higher wpc provide better control of the woofer and does that mean that the woofer will sound clearer and go deeper?
Does using hybrid amp impart more musicality and depth to the woofer than using a solid state amp?
I imagine the best approach for me would be to try both amps and return the one I don't like. However in some ways I find that approach unfair to the dealer and any subsequent buyers of the amps so any recommendations and experience with these amps would be appreciated.
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Only two amp specs are likely to affect woofer quality: power, and damping factor. How much power you need depends on your listening habits and the distance you sit from the speakers. In and of itself, power won't have an effect on woofer control or extension. Damping factor does affect those things, but most amps have a damping factor high enough that electrical damping is determined primarily by the impedance of the driver's own voice coil, so unless you use an amp with an unusually low DF it shouldn't make a difference. For that reason, I wouldn't waste any money looking for finesse here, in fact, many people use big pro amps on their woofers.
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I think that either amp would be overkill.
I was using a little Harman Kardon PM640 integrated with the volume knob way down to blend it in with my MMGs (which were being driven by big VTLs).
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It would definitely be overkill in the near field.
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I think that either amp would be overkill.
I was using a little Harman Kardon PM640 integrated with the volume knob way down to blend it in with my MMGs (which were being driven by big VTLs).
I am pleased to read that you feel that either amp would be overkill. Someone suggested that I read a thread posted by Satie and it seems that he was saying Maggie bass panels need 1000-1500 wpc minimum. Someone else has a tag line that I think says something like "Maggies, because you can never have too much power".
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The question is at what distance? If you're using the bass in a big system, sure, that's a pretty good figure for those who like to listen loud (but not everybody). I know one guy who has 2500 watts on his Tympani IV bass panels! But if they're under your desk and they're right in front of you, you're never going to use all the juice.
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There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side. Centered it was really good in my room.
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There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side. Centered it was really good in my room.
I haven't seen it yet, downloading it now. (I have an online subscription and for some reason they don't always send out notification emails.) Is that the same article about using it in small rooms that I read online?
I can see that you'd want to center the Mini Maggie if you're using one, with a 300 Hz crossover you're going to be able to localize it. Obviously not a problem with two of them, and if they're against the wall in the position they recommend, you should get more bass.
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There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side. Centered it was really good in my room.
It is probably natural that the TAS author recommends two DWMs (not centered), close to the side walls and midrange/tweeter panels. IMO what may sound better is two centered DWMs (one on the floor and the other just above).
The raised DWM feeds the two satellite midrange/tweeter panels, as in the normal Mini Maggie system. Using another stereo amp, the DWM on the floor is powered separately with it's own volume control.
IMO the above configuration will provide superior and more bass since both halves of each DWM will be powered. The DWM on the floor can be powered to just short of speaker distortion, if you wish.
What I have not tried is using two DWMs (not centered), close to the side walls and midrange/tweeter panels using two stereo amps. For this configuration the first stereo amp would drive the outer halves of the left and right DWMs and midrange/tweeter panels. The second stereo amp and volume control would drive the inner halves of the left and right DWMs.
The only other thing to add is a sub,or even better would be stereo subs, for subwoofer frequencies of 20-40 Hz.
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While I think a planar desktop system would be great, ala Monsoon, the Maggie, at $1500 is not practical for me. The emi Tech system was $500 but I can't seem to track them down these days to see if it's still in production.
(http://pzy.be/t/4/et.jpg) (http://"http://pzy.be/v/4/et.jpg")
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue10/eminenttechnology.htm
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I assume the Eminents are out of production, but not sure, you should check with Eminent Tech to make sure. I have Monsoon 2000's, BTW, with the smaller Eminent drivers. As much as I like them, they don't hold a candle to the Mini Maggies, which are beyond amazing. You know that "put 3.7's on your desktop" ad? It's not an exaggeration, that's how good they are.
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The Listening Room called and said that they have the Mini Maggies in stock so I hope to find out for myself this Sunday.
That should be fun.
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Hey Josh,
When you listened to the Mini Maggies, how close were you to them? There's something interesting about being really close to these speakers. As I've mentioned, my MMG/REL hybrids are in my bedroom and I sit very close to them - I can lean forward and touch them. I really like them this way. It prompted me to move 4' closer to the 3.7s - from 13' to 9' (which is how far they are off the front wall right now - and the speaker cables pretty much take the crow's path (can't get but maybe another inch)). I like that too - a lot. I bet working at a desk with a pair of Mini Maggies is friggin' heavenly. :D
Instead, my former office became my bedroom and my work chair became a recliner while the desk became an equipment rack (with a TV doubling as a computer monitor). I don't drag work home anymore. Hell, I barely work - 3 days a week so I can buy new music and play around with audio gear and a few cars. The problem is that a house overhaul is tapping me out - starting on our 30 year old flooring now.
If I had somewhere to put them, I'd be all over the Mini Maggies. It seems like a brilliant product. You know; I could use them instead of these 'monstrous' MMGs in the bedroom. :icon_lol:
Give us a full report please, Steve!
I'm curious how well they work without the desk, but still quite close...or, I could build a new cabinet :icon_twisted: (I'm getting better at doing that stuff - of course, buying more tools helps).
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I still think the DMW on the foot of the bed and the small Minis suspended from the ceiling would be the ticket.
Take that, Hugh Hefner, he probably listens to a Bose Wave Radio in bed, the schlub.
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The Listening Room called and said that they have the Mini Maggies in stock so I hope to find out for myself this Sunday.
That should be fun.
That's great. Just make sure they're properly set up, when they were first introduced some dealers were just throwing them on a shelf or using crap electronics and they didn't sound good. I gather that most dealers now understand how to set them up properly, e.g., on a desk.
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Hey Josh,
When you listened to the Mini Maggies, how close were you to them? There's something interesting about being really close to these speakers. As I've mentioned, my MMG/REL hybrids are in my bedroom and I sit very close to them - I can lean forward and touch them. I really like them this way. It prompted me to move 4' closer to the 3.7s - from 13' to 9' (which is how far they are off the front wall right now - and the speaker cables pretty much take the crow's path (can't get but maybe another inch)). I like that too - a lot. I bet working at a desk with a pair of Mini Maggies is friggin' heavenly. :D
Instead, my former office became my bedroom and my work chair became a recliner while the desk became an equipment rack (with a TV doubling as a computer monitor). I don't drag work home anymore. Hell, I barely work - 3 days a week so I can buy new music and play around with audio gear and a few cars. The problem is that a house overhaul is tapping me out - starting on our 30 year old flooring now.
If I had somewhere to put them, I'd be all over the Mini Maggies. It seems like a brilliant product. You know; I could use them instead of these 'monstrous' MMGs in the bedroom. :icon_lol:
Give us a full report please, Steve!
I'm curious how well they work without the desk, but still quite close...or, I could build a new cabinet :icon_twisted: (I'm getting better at doing that stuff - of course, buying more tools helps).
I first listened to them from right behind Mark Winey's desk. Here's a shot, you can see that I was maybe 3 feet away. That's the kind of nearfield listening they're designed for, and at that distance, they really do sound like 3.7's -- not point-for-point identical (for one thing they don't have the same image height) but comparable, which is to say amazing. I'm still blown away by the big speaker sound that comes from them, I mean, objectively, the 3.7's are just as good, but it's amazing to hear that kind of sound coming from speakers so small. Anyway, after that, I tried listening from further back, at the rear of his office, just to get a feel for how they'd sound farther away, and the answer is great, though not quite as good as they did up close. As everyone says (well, Dawnrazor, anyway), the tweeter start to beam vertically at that distance but that shouldn't be a problem if you're sitting down. Mark and I also tried taking the monitor off the desk and it did improve the center image a bit. We also tried moving it a bit forward of the speakers and that was also a bit better.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61782)
Near field listening definitely has its advantages (I like my MMG's up close too, though I find it gets kind of claustrophobic). I did read somewhere about some research that found that the optimal listening distance for speakers is about 8', but that of course is for speakers designed for far-field listening and I think you have to balance all the factors -- bass response, distance from walls, etc. I have read that the minis want to be back from the front wall, which doesn't surprise me, I'd expect them to be similar to any dipole in that respect -- the more that rear wave reflection is delayed, the more depth you'll get in the image.
BTW, having listened to both the MMG's and Minis up close, I'd say there's no contest, the Minis win hands down. I'm sure I'll end up with a pair eventually, once I can come up with a suitable excuse. :-)
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PS -- they can be used on stands, there are holes in them to facilitate that. The critical thing is to keep the woofer and mid/tweeters in time alignment. I imagine you'll lose some bass extension if the woofers aren't in a footwell (or against a wall, but I assume you want to keep the woofer centered if you're only using one).
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PS -- they can be used on stands, there are holes in them to facilitate that. The critical thing is to keep the woofer and mid/tweeters in time alignment. I imagine you'll lose some bass extension if the woofers aren't in a footwell (or against a wall, but I assume you want to keep the woofer centered if you're only using one).
This must be something new. I had to drill holes in the base of my DWMs to mount them on stands. The midrange/tweeter panels were small enough for me to use Blu-tac to secure them to stands.
For whole room applications, the Minis sound incredible but they sound even better with subs and/or an additional DWM woofer that is powered by a separate amp. That should be no surprise since bass from panel speakers in a medium to large room require more surface area and more amp power.
IMO the reason why many people love Tympanis and other biamped Maggies is to get significantly more bass without overloading the room with highs and mids that are glorious as is.
I guess with the new .7 Maggies that are not easily biamped, one could add several DWM woofers with decent low cost powerful amps. Of course that gets expensive as each separately powered DWM will cost between $1200-2000. If I had only bought the Tympani IVAs. Won't Magnepan consider bringing them back into production as an anniversary special?
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This must be something new. I had to drill holes in the base of my DWMs to mount them on stands. The midrange/tweeter panels were small enough for me to use Blu-tac to secure them to stands.
For whole room applications, the Minis sound incredible but they sound even better with subs and/or an additional DWM woofer that is powered by a separate amp. That should be no surprise since bass from panel speakers in a medium to large room require more surface area and more amp power.
IMO the reason why many people love Tympanis and other biamped Maggies is to get significantly more bass without overloading the room with highs and mids that are glorious as is.
I guess with the new .7 Maggies that are not easily biamped, one could add several DWM woofers with decent low cost powerful amps. Of course that gets expensive as each separately powered DWM will cost between $1200-2000. If I had only bought the Tympani IVAs. Won't Magnepan consider bringing them back into production as an anniversary special?
Wendell Diller recommends doing just that, using a pair of DWM's to increase the surface area of the Maggies and get a more Tympani-like bass. You can see the right hand DWM is positioned for that in the photo of their listening lab, though it wasn't being used when I was there (at least I hope it wasn't, because the other DWM is lying on the side).
The idea of an anniversary Tympani has been discussed, as well as a new one. Everyone I mentioned them to at Magnepan still loves the IVa's. But I suspect that if they do a new Tympani (no decision yet, according to Mark Winey) it will be an updated design. Tympani IV.VII? :-) I mean, they might as well incorporate what they've learned in the intervening years, e.g., quasi ribbon, improved ribbon tweeters, etc. Meanwhile, the IVa's do come up periodically and I think they may be the best single bargain in audio for those who have a big enough room (or idiots like me who are willing to squeeze them into a small one).
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Mini Maggie Demo Day for me today, I think.
It's a nice day out (for once) so if the wife won't guy I'll be forced to ride a motorcycle. :D
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Wendell Diller recommends doing just that, using a pair of DWM's to increase the surface area of the Maggies and get a more Tympani-like bass. You can see the right hand DWM is positioned for that in the photo of their listening lab, though it wasn't being used when I was there (at least I hope it wasn't, because the other DWM is lying on the side).
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I am trying to envision my room with 3.7s, 2 DWMs and 2 subs. Seems to me to be an excruciating set up problem. :cry: Most likely a pair of 12.7s would do better. :thumb: Of course if one wanted, adding a pair of DWMs is possible. :scratch:
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I am trying to envision my room with 3.7s, 2 DWMs and 2 subs. Seems to me to be an excruciating set up problem. :cry: Most likely a pair of 12.7s would do better. :thumb: Of course if one wanted, adding a pair of DWMs is possible. :scratch:
You have a point. I think what I'd do is set up the DWM's first, then add the subs for bottom octave duty. But it would be quite a bear, just getting a single pair of planars optimized is time consuming enough!
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I am trying to envision my room with 3.7s, 2 DWMs and 2 subs. Seems to me to be an excruciating set up problem. :cry:
Assuming your room is suitable for 3.7s, it should be an easy setup. Just optimize the 3.7 placement and everything else is just gravy or it won't be there at all.
The idea of the subs is to provide low frequency extension in the range of 15-40 Hz to the 3.7s. The placement of the DWMs is to provide better, smoother and fast bass and midbass above 40 Hz.
IMO the sub bass should be room EQed, while EQ for the DWM may be optional. The 3.7s should only rely on passive room treatments as required.
Of course what would be better than this is to just get the 20.7s, though here too a pair of subs for 15-30 Hz would still be a plus.
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Assuming your room is suitable for 3.7s, it should be an easy setup. Just optimize the 3.7 placement and everything else is just gravy or it won't be there at all.
The idea of the subs is to provide low frequency extension in the range of 15-40 Hz to the 3.7s. The placement of the DWMs is to provide better, smoother and fast bass and midbass above 40 Hz.
IMO the sub bass should be room EQed, while EQ for the DWM may be optional. The 3.7s should only rely on passive room treatments as required.
Of course what would be better than this is to just get the 20.7s, though here too a pair of subs for 15-30 Hz would still be a plus.
Thank you. The problem is that it isn't easy to set up any of the speaker pairs we are discussing on their own. As we add another speaker pair (Say we first correctly position the 3.7s, then the DWMs and finally the subs) interspeaker interaction must also be considered. I haven't had experience with the DWMs, but I think proper placement won't be without some trial and error.
I guess we have strayed from the original topic?
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A little bit.
Today I finally got to hear the Mini Maggie system courtesy of The Listening Room down in Towson, MD.
The room is around 12x16 (small bedroom size), against one short wall there's an open table with the DMW underneath it and sitting on either side of the PC monitor are the little Minis which are surprisingly light weight.
They must weigh around 4 pounds each (with bases, if that much).
The speakers were about 4' apart and probably 14" away from the wall, ribbons out, angled in towards the desk chair.
In the opposite corner of the room is a single REL T5 sub and the whole plot is driven with a new Cambridge integrated amp/dac combo (85 WRMS/channel) and the source is either the hard drive or a Cambridge BluRay universal disc player.
I really wasn't sure what to expect, to be perfectly honest.
How did it sound?
Here's a one word review: great.
Here's a bit more: not okay, not good but great.
At the computer I listen to headphones: WooAudio6, Harman Kardon tube tuner and Beyerdynamic DT880s.
The Mini Maggies are much more better.
In bed I listen to a Sherwood tube tuner, Harman Kardon SS integrated and Stax Sigma headphones.
The Mini Maggies hands this combo their butts, too.
You get that great ribbon Magnepan sound but it differs from the big ones in that the sound is really crisp and immediate. There is nothing diffuse about this at all; I suppose that's because you're sitting right on top of the little guys and the ribbons are working their magic just a few feet away from your head.
I wasn't sure what, if anything, the DMW would do under the desk but it certainly didn't sound weird or call any attention to itself. I did flip off the REL sub and the system is much better with it in place.
These speakers will fill a small-ish room quite well; they work best with your ears at speaker level but it wasn't horrible if you walked around. I did try tilting them up a bit but it didn't seem to make that much of a difference as pointing them straight ahead did.
Here's where these would be perfect: small room, desk at one end, bed at the other. They're small, they're not in the way and they will give you tremendous sound at your desk and really good (but not tremendous) sound at the rest of the room.
Add a small sub and you're done.
One final thought: the Cambridge integrated has tone controls so rolling off the treble some was a good thing. I would throw some tubes in the mix if it were me. At 85 WPC the Cambridge went as loud as I'd want it with the volume at 12:00 and the amp was warm but that's about it. I don't think that you need a boatload of power with these speakers.
If you do make the mistake of taking your wife along, they will give her ideas.
No, they do not revolve around video cameras and cool whip.
The ideas that pop into a woman's head is that you should sell your 3.7s, buy the Mini Maggie system and give her the rest of the money so that she can remodel the kitchen.
Yeah, that'll happen.
Lynda did come up with an interesting idea in that instead of buying a set of large speakers for a large room, why not get two Mini Maggie Systems and see what you can do to get that to work?
I mentioned that the musicians won't exactly be to scale but she shrugged it off citing the advantages of SMALL speakers which are easy to move and don't dominate the surroundings.
With the way that music storage and playback is going and the ascendency of the iPod generation, I think that I've just seen the future of audio.
I read a post here, or perhaps a link to another article, wherein the author stated that his kids viewed his system as "big stereo" which was outdated.
I like big monster speakers, giant tube amps and 12" records.
That doesn't appeal to the young snotnosed punks.
The Mini Maggies will appeal to Generation WTF or Y or whatever they're called, non audiophile spouses and people who want astonishing sound in a small package.
I know where my 2012 tax refund is going.
Good job, Magnepan!
P.S.
I'm already thinking about what gear to run these little guys with...
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Amazing, aren't they?
I'm still wracking my brain for an excuse to get a pair -- a couple of years ago, I'd have gotten them for my computer but now I'm planning to put a monitor and keyboard in my listening room so that excuse is gone.
One thing about that setup, it seems like they were a bit close to the wall. When I head them they were quite a distance from the wall since Mark Winey's desk faces out into the room. That's the only way I heard them but I read somewhere that they're just like big ones in that they image best when they're several feet out from the wall.
These are an amazing product, but since they're so unconventional, I think everyone's going to have to hear them. I mean, we've all read the reviews, but then you hear them and say "wow."
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I got an email from Wendell today and he made an interesting observation: if someone is downsizing (and I'll add have a small room or they're simply on a budget), the Mini Maggies, a modest amp and a recliner would be just the ticket. Pick whatever source makes you happiest.
I'd add a subwoofer, pipe full of good tobacco and a cup of coffee but that's just me.
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I confess I've had similar thoughts. I mean, they're so good that I sometimes think, hey, I spent half my life in front of the computer anyway, rather than trying to fit Tympanis in a closet-sized room maybe I should just put some Mini Maggies on my desk.
On the other hand, I gave up smoking, so I deserve to have something decadent in my life!