Finally a forum to ask this question

Bwanagreg · « **on:** 5 Feb 2003, 02:48 am »

OK, I've seen answers to this question at AVS, and frankly I don't give them any credibility.

"My $100 HTPC soundcard blows away the $7000 EAD Theatermaster processor in a double-blind triple-dumb comparison using Rat Shack zipcord cables since we all know those audiophile freakaziod new-age shaman types are deluding themselves .. blah .. blah .. blah".

So, has anyone done a critical evaluation of a good (M-Audio?) HTPC soundcard, in a 2-channel or 5.1/7.1 configuration, using high-resolution amps, cables, speakers, etc, and/or compared the sound to a decent HT processor or DAC?

I guess my bias is pretty clear - I'm skeptical. I would love to be convinced that it is a viable low cost option for home theater, especially given the new M-Audio cards that offer almost all of the functionality of a standalone processor, for cheap.

Any opinions?

U4EA · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 03:10 am »

Do you have a link to this card? i would like to read about it.

Marbles · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 03:15 am »

Try to get a hold of PHAT PHREDDY from PHUCKET, He'll set you straight.
(no kidding, he's your man)

You can find him on AVS. I know your skeptical of those guys, but he knows more about HTPC's than any one else I know.

EchiDna · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 03:22 am »

Link for the M-Audio Revolution:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php

I am in the process of getting everything sorted out in my system to do a decent A/B of my pc audio with revo system vs my cd player... expect to see the results here soon

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 03:28 pm »

Marbles,

Thanks for the contact. Just to be clear, I do respect the technical HTPC (and projector) knowledge shown by a lot of the posters at AVS. I do question how "golden" their ears are. I think many of the posters are more gear-heads (I mean that affectionately

) than music lovers to be honest. A lot of the "sound quality" discussion over there reminds me of the Total Harmonic Distortion Wars of the 70's - if it measures better it must be better, right? Remember when Julian Hirsch delared that "all amps that measure the same sound the same"? Oh god, I just showed my age didn't I...

Also, I just realized that my use of the EAD Theatermaster example might suggest that I am picking on Bill Gaw of Enjoythemusic.com, who favorably compared the sound of a Delta 1010 to this processor. Not at all. I would recommend his Viewpoint articles on this topic for anyone who is interested. His writing actually is what me interested in this in the first place. He also contributes to AVS. Guess I'm just looking for confirmation or opposing views. The HTPC approach appeals to the rebel in me that feels that much high-end equiptment is over-priced and over-marketed.

EchiDna, I look forward to your impressions.

So what are the odds of a talented circuit modder taking a look at a card like the 1010 or Revolution to see what could be improved? Hmm... anyone on this board know such a person?

Peter M · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Feb 2003, 09:19 pm »

Greg,

I'm for the most part in agreement with you. The people at the AVS forum tend to latch on to whichever piece of gear happens to be marketed best and criticize any and all competition to the death, many times with no justification whatsoever. There's just too much animosity there - you can't seem to post much of anything without someone coming to cut your throat soon after.

With that said, however, there is still much evidence that audiocards can in fact measure up to not just decent DACs, but the best ones at any price. I wish I could chip in with my own two cents on the subject, but since I don't have enough money to investigate every audiocard on the market, I speak mostly on the strength of well-written, reasonable reviews.

StereoTimes's review of the LynxTWO audiocard

ProAudioReview's review of the LynxTWO.pdf

Sound on Sound's review of the LynxTWO

Sound on Sound's review of the LynxONE

Sound on Sound's review of the RME Digi96/8 PAD

Stereophile's review of the RME Digi96/8 Pro

Stereophile's review of the DAL CardDeluxe

If I had to put my money on any one audiocard, it would be on one from Lynx, but again, so far, the Revolution looks like a winner for $100.

"So what are the odds of a talented circuit modder taking a look at a card like the 1010 or Revolution to see what could be improved? Hmm... anyone on this board know such a person?"

There's actually someone on the 3DSS computer audio forums that is modding his M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 with good initial results, but I'm betting you were referring to someone else.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Feb 2003, 01:35 am »

Peter,

Thanks for the links and thoughtful comments. This is an area of great potential, and I'm interested in the type of balanced discussion that (mostly) occurs on this board and a few others.

I think an area where I would have the most concern is with the noisy PC power supply. Given the impact of balanced power filters on standalone component performance, I bet there is major room for improvement with soundcards by filtering/regulating the internal power supply. Bybee filters, perhaps? Geez, this could really get out of control!

Peter M · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Feb 2003, 02:51 am »

Greg,

If memory serves, there is one documented experiment with a balanced power supply and an RME Digi96/8 PST on the Yahoo! PAMS forums.

Ah, here it is:

http://www.transcendentsound.com/power_supply.htm

"What a difference it has made in detail and low end performance. I've basically now taken my "external" DAC out of the equation completely and have been using the RME for all 2-channel DAC work....

Here are my impressions, nothing scientific. After adding the first
BPS, I had a not-so-subtle change in low end and mid-range using either
RME DAC or ext DAC (read AVP). I couldn't believe it, the low end
extended so cleanly. In addition, the picture on the Sony was amazing.
After a quick re-calibration (Video Essentials), the picture is nothing
short of stellar IMO. I'm not sure why the BPS helped the TV picture
out so much, but it did. I've been told that our power here (in the
boondocks) must be really bad.

I just recently added the second BPS. I don't notice the dramatic
change as when I added the first to my audio units, but I have not spent
a lot of time with it recently. It certainly didn't grab my attention
like when adding the first one. In general, I rate my DACs as such
(best first): [Proceed] AVP, RME [Digi96/8 PST], [Denon] DVD5000. The AVP DACs seem to present a little
more detail and a deeper sound stage. The Transcendent gear is very
neutral and very quick and a nasty source makes itself known quickly."

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Feb 2003, 05:01 pm »

Peter,

Interesting quote. I was thinking that filters would be most effective if they were somehow inserted between the PC power supply and the card, but this quote indicates that just filtering the AC to the PC has a big impact. I wonder how much of the impact is due to the removal of noise generated by the PC and propogated back to the other components?

Thanks again. I am getting more interested in trying this out all of the time.

jkarhan1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Feb 2003, 06:29 am »

Anyone in the Seattle/Tacoma area interested in doing a A/B comparison?
PC with sound card vs audio gear. I have several PC's, Creative labs and Hercules sound cards on hand. Plus some Rotel gear to bring to the table.

Phat Phreddy · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 03:51 am »

Marbles, you flatter me and I must say truly that I am not worthy.... I have a very good PC based knowledge and I think a pretty good soundsystem with some weaknesses (Room / Amp) and great speakers to grow into as my ears develop... I am however less of a audiophile than many and enjoy listening to music more than critiquing my system (thank god)...

I am however a pragmatist and when both the objectionists and subjectivists agree (thats gotta mean something) that both the HTPC audio specs are better than DAC's on even >10k flagship pre / pro's and that in ABX testing cards like the LynxTwo or RME sound better too then I am listening...

Of course what happens is many people plug an SBLive and SPDIF connection together... Use a noisy PC... Use software without ASIO output... Then trash PC based audio !!!

Have a read of this little Gem here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236215&

Hmmm a 295 soundcard being the equal of a 12k processor... or Bill Gaws M-Audio comparisons here http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0802/aachapter36.htm Marginally lower cards but still competeing with the Theta unit comfortably...

Dont forget that the new Revo card ($99 !!!) Has better DAC's than the older 1010 and S/N thats on par...

I also know of one person that has coded a speaker correction player... Of course you need a good calibration mic but once you correct for tonal deficencies in speakers at the source not only have you gone direct from rebuffered audio to the DAC (reducing or eliminating jitter depending on who you ask) but you correct for your systems weaknesses... How long before the same thing is applied to room correction in the digital domain ?? a speaker corrected and room corrected source and pre / pro in one device... Does this not excite people ???

I know PC's have a stigma... I know I am a fan so take my words with a handful of salt but also dont listen to the uneducated who compare badly set up and configured PC's... I would hazard that 99% of everything we listen to has been through a PC based audio solution in its mastering phase... Why should this be something no one seems to consider when they claim PC's cant do audio ??

Ohh yeah, you may want to tell this company too

http://www.carillondirect.com/clnweb/index.jsp?country=UK

Phat Phreddy · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 03:57 am »

Ohh yeah... I forgot to say...

So this is where you all dissapeared to... I wondered why there was tumbleweed blowing around HD !!