current vs voltage

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rlw3

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current vs voltage
« on: 23 Sep 2008, 07:42 pm »
some speakers and amps are described as high current or wanting it. some speakers and amps designs seem to be described as voltage desiring. what are the differences-can anyone repling use analogies like pipes and waterflow for the uninformed like me?? please assume no electrical knowledge by your readers

rockadanny

Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #1 on: 23 Sep 2008, 07:53 pm »
I recall reading that some speakers require high-voltage over current and vice-versa as well.
Why doesn't the manufacturer publish what is best for their speaker? Or is the clue already in the specifications which I'm not deciphering?  :scratch: Same with the amps for power delivery - more voltage or current capable? Why be mysterious about this?

Speedskater

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Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #2 on: 23 Sep 2008, 09:47 pm »
Low impedance speakers (or speakers with deep impedance dips) place greater current demands on an amplifier. High impedance speakers place greater voltage demands on an amplifier. There's lot's more to this story, but it gets complicated fast.

K.C.

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Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #3 on: 26 Sep 2008, 06:19 am »
While I'm sure Roger could tell you more than you want to know about current & voltage, this is a question for The Lab

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #4 on: 9 Oct 2008, 10:14 am »
Let's stay out of the lab. Last time we went there it got messy :guns:

As always it's best to refine the language as to who provides and who needs. Amplifiers provide both voltage and current. Speakers require or use this voltage and current.

A mostly resistive speaker like a Magnepan looks like a resistor (long piece of aluminum wire) with no significant inductance, capacitance or back EMF.  It's about the easiest thing to drive and closest to the load resistors we use to specify and measure amplifier power.

Tube amplifiers have output transformers that provide different "impedance taps" where the voltage and current are in the optimum relationship for the indicated impedance. The RM-200 can provide the same 100 watts into 8, 4, 2, 1 ohm because it has those taps. The sound of the amp is virtually identical on these taps when loaded with the marked impedance. It is permissible and often desirable to put a 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm tap. I call this "light loading" and first defined it in the RM-10 manual. In this configuration the amplifier provides 1.4 times more current and 1.4 times less voltage. As long as this voltage will play the speaker to the desired level without clipping this configuration favors the tube life, lowers distortion and noise, provides 2 times more damping.

Transistor amps with output transformers (Mc Intosh) behave as above and it's the transformer that makes this happen. Mc Intosh wisely drives the transformer, autoformer in this case, from a very low tap around 2 ohms. Thus the transformer steps up the voltage by 2 times to the 8 ohm tap and 1.4 times to the 4 ohm tap. Transistors love high current much more than high voltage. Generally output transistor power capability falls rapidly above 80 volts due to second breakdown. One hundred watts into 8 ohms is roughly where second breakdown starts to reduce transistor capability. Above that power the designer has to use lots more transistors, or MOSFETs, or protection circuits that become quite problematic when driving a reactive (non resistive) load like an electrostatic speaker.

The better speaker makers and Stereophile speaker tests give impedance curves and phase angles of those impedances. Phase angle in this case has nothing to do with the often misused term "phase shift". In this case the "phase angle of the impedance" serves to tell us the capacitive and inductive components influence the impedance curve. A Magnepan has a zero phase angle. An electrostatic speaker that dips to 1 ohm has a 90 degree phase angle. This means that the amplifier will be providing the most current as the output voltage goes through zero. As far as the output devices (tube or transistor) are concerned this looks like a short. Tubes will run out of current, both will run hotter and load line limiters that protect transistors will often cut in sounding very bad. This "current clipping" sounds very much like voltage clipping.

r.wasserstrom

Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #5 on: 5 Nov 2008, 12:19 am »
It is permissible and often desirable to put a 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm tap. I call this "light loading" and first defined it in the RM-10 manual. In this configuration the amplifier provides 1.4 times more current and 1.4 times less voltage. As long as this voltage will play the speaker to the desired level without clipping this configuration favors the tube life, lowers distortion and noise, provides 2 times more damping.

Roger,

Thanks for that explanation.  I have always been puzzled about which taps on my home-brew tube amp (built by my good friend) would best drive my Quad 57s.  I have always used the 16 ohm tap, because the Quads present a 32 ohm+ load at low frequencies.  But they drop to about 2 ohms at higher frequencies.  So if I understand your explanation, I can get the same same sound quality by using the 8 or 4 ohm taps and prolong tube life to boot.  Or does your explanation apply only to your excellent amps?

Rich

S Clark

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Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #6 on: 5 Nov 2008, 12:45 am »
some speakers and amps are described as high current or wanting it. some speakers and amps designs seem to be described as voltage desiring. what are the differences-can anyone repling use analogies like pipes and waterflow for the uninformed like me?? please assume no electrical knowledge by your readers

In a simple analogy, think of voltage as being like water pressure that makes it flow.  Amperage is simply like the rate of flow of water (think flow of electrons) from a high pressure (high voltage area) to a low pressure area (lower voltage or possibly ground).  High voltage is like having electrons crammed really tightly so that they repel with large forces (and can push through poor, high resistance conductors)- it doesn't necessarily follow that it means high amperage if there are only a few electrons that move through the circuit.  On the other hand, a small pressure (voltage) is capable of moving a lot of water through a big pipe (low resistance) therefore.  In short, voltage is like the pressure created by having a high electron density or by having large forces acting on them.  If they have a good pathway that offers little resistance, a lot of electrons can flow creating a large current (amperage).  Hope that helps- it's how I explain it to some of my high school physics students.

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #7 on: 19 Nov 2008, 02:27 am »
It is permissible and often desirable to put a 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm tap. I call this "light loading" and first defined it in the RM-10 manual. In this configuration the amplifier provides 1.4 times more current and 1.4 times less voltage. As long as this voltage will play the speaker to the desired level without clipping this configuration favors the tube life, lowers distortion and noise, provides 2 times more damping.

Roger,

Thanks for that explanation.  I have always been puzzled about which taps on my home-brew tube amp (built by my good friend) would best drive my Quad 57s.  I have always used the 16 ohm tap, because the Quads present a 32 ohm+ load at low frequencies.  But they drop to about 2 ohms at higher frequencies.  So if I understand your explanation, I can get the same same sound quality by using the 8 or 4 ohm taps and prolong tube life to boot.  Or does your explanation apply only to your excellent amps?

Rich

One should focus on the low impedance region rather than the high. The high impedance lets the amp loaf. The low impedance makes the amp work hard and usually causes a drop in HF (high frequency) level. Using a lower tap will give better HF. As long as the speaker will play loud enough the lowest tap is the best.


r.wasserstrom

Re: current vs voltage
« Reply #8 on: 19 Nov 2008, 02:58 am »
Thanks, Roger.  I'll try the 8 and 4 ohm taps and see how that sounds.