New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics

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jsaliga

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New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« on: 16 Jul 2022, 02:02 pm »
For the past three years I have been using a Pioneer PLX-1000, Audio Technica AT-OC9/III moving coil cartridge, and iFi iPhono for a vinyl setup.  I'm a big fan of this rig and used it to make many 24bit/192KHz recordings from records in my collection.  In 2019 the Pioneer based system was one of two vinyl rigs I had.  The other was a Nottingham Analogue Space 294 with a 12" Ace Space tonearm and Lyra Delos cartridge.  Some of you may even recall that I favorably compared the former to the latter...and a number of people wanted to have me drawn and quartered for it.  I have no plans or desire to re-litigate that.  I will only say that my sentiments about the point of diminishing returns haven't changed at all since then.

In May of 2019 I sold off that Nottingham Analogue setup to a buyer on Audiogon who bought the whole shebang - table, arm, cartridge, and phono preamp.  Since then the Pioneer has been running solo in my audio system.  One may ask why I decided to sell the Nottingham.  A fair question.  It was a fantastic turntable and the Lyra was magnificent:



All I can say is that I have an odd relationship with audio gear, and especially with turntables.  I fall in love with them rather quickly, and just as quickly I seem to fall out of love with them.  Perhaps that's a bit too strong.  It isn't like they suddenly start sounding not so nice or even that I have a strong desire to seek better sound.  Indeed, I had no complaints, none, about the big Nottingham Analogue turntable.  At the time I sold it, I was using the Pioneer PLX-1000 much more since I was spending a lot of time making needle drops and I wasn't spinning records to sit down and listen to them quite so much.  I have owned some pretty nice turntables over the years: a Rega P7, a vacuum platter SOTA Star Sapphire with an SME IV tonearm, a Garrard 401, a 301 each on a custom made plinth with two armboards.  Nothing obscenely expensive but decent tables by any measure.  And in each case I sold them because I just decided it was time to change things up and do something different.

That brings me to about three weeks ago when I came across the EAT C-Sharp turntable.



I was very much taken by this design.  I thought that if I ever was going to spend $5,000 or more on another vinyl rig this one might be the base.  List was $4,199.  Add a decent cartridge and you're in for less than six grand.  Or at least that was my thinking.  But I wasn't really committed to the idea of buying a new turntable until a few days later when I called Audio Advisor to discuss it.  They gave me a pretty good price...but then I saw they had the Rega P10 in stock.  Naturally it was more expensive.  But I gotta tell you I have always been a big fan of their flagship turntables.  That polished Rega tonearm is really a thing of beauty and it doesn't get any simpler than that.  So after talking it over with my sales guy I ordered the Rega bundle which included the P10 and the Aphetta 3 MC cartridge.  I had to kick in another $1,500 to get the Rega.



Initially it sounded great and I was really liking it...but it didn't take long before the turntable started having issues.  A pretty hideous noise started to creep into the sound and after some testing with other components I determined the source was the turntable (or cartridge).  After a couple of discussions with Audio Advisor we both agreed the turntable needed to be sent back.  So now I was faced with a decision.  Do I replace it with another P10 or do something else.  Another option was to just get my money back and walk away from the whole proposition of buying another turntable.  But I was pretty committed to doing something at this point.  So I revisited my choices: go back to the EAT C-Sharp that got me started on this path, or pick out something else.

I actually considered something like 5 different turntables with price tags ranging from $4,000 to $8,000.  I also needed a cartridge so I budgeted $2,000 for one, though I did consider a couple that were considerably more costly than that.  And after another day of self-deliberation only the EAT C-Sharp and VPI Prime 21 were still in the running.  I have always liked VPI turntables but was never a fan of their unipivot tonearms.  I have heard them before and seen one up close.  They always sounded good to my ears but I was never able to get past the image of a wobbly tonearm.  And that has kept me from a buying a VPI turntable for many years.  The arrival of a 3-D printed gimballed tonearm option at VPI was a game changer for me and put them squarely back in the running.

Initially, I settled on the EAT C-Sharpe over the VPI Prime 21.  When I looked at the latter it became evident to me that the VPI turntable that I was really most interested in was the VPI Prime Signature 21.  But that turntable in black was twice the price of the EAT C-Sharp.  The Prime Signature 21 in Rosewood added $1,000 premium to the black model.  I was struggling to find an additional $3,200 in value in the Prime Signature over the Prime.  I had little doubt that it was there...but did I want to spend that kind of money to get it?  A first blush the answer was no.  I was on the phone with my Audio Advisor sales rep to order the EAT C-Sharp when, almost reflexively, I asked him about the VPI Prime Signature 21 in Rosewood.  He offered it to me for a price that was much better than I expected.  He also noted that VPI prices were going up effective July 1st, which was just two days away.  So if wanted the Prime Signature 21 in Rosewood at the price I was given I had 24 hours to get my order in.  Audio Advisor didn't have the Prime Signature 21 Rosewood in stock and they would need get a P.O. in with VPI to order one.  So order one I did.  I reasoned (or rationalized) that at 63 years old and still working for now I may not get another chance at buying one of these so I took advantage of the opportunity while I could.

The only decision I had left to make is what cartridge to match it up with.  I have to admit that I am something of a coward when it comes to phono cartridges...especially expensive ones.  I tend to stick to manufactures I know and have some experience with at the higher end of their lines.  So Ortofon, Dynavector, Audio-Technica, and Benz Micro were always safe bets for me.  But like the turntable, here too with the cartridge, I was looking to do something different.  And while I am generally not impressed or influenced too much by reviews it is all I really had to go on.  I tended to reject any review that was laying it on a bit too thick with the Zen of audiophile adjectives.  I was looking for copy that was more immediate, honest, and direct.

The cartridges that I narrowed it down to were:

  • Grado Statement 3 Lineage
  • Hana Umami Red
  • Lyra Kleos
  • EAT Jo No.8

I settled on the EAT Jo No.8.



Here are the specs:

Stylus Type: Nude Shibata on Boron cantilever
Weight: 12.5g
Output Voltage: 0.3 mV
Channel Separation: > 25 dB (1kHz), > 17 dB (15kHz)
Compliance Dynamic/Lateral: 15 μm/mN
Tracking Force Range: 2.0-2.5 g (20-25 mN)
Recommended Tracking Force: 2.3g (23mN)
Tracking Angle : 20°
Coil Wire Material: 8-Nines copper
Internal Impedance, DC Resistance: 5 Ohm
Recommended Load Resistance: > 15 Ohm

Now that all of the decisions were made and my order was in, all there was left to do is sit back and wait.  My turntable arrived on Thursday...all 85lbs of it.



After unboxing everything I managed to get it up on my stand and started with the setup.  To my eyes this turntable is drop dead gorgeous and the photos don't come close to doing it justice.



But here is where I encountered my one criticism of this turntable: the tonearm cueing system.



I could feel something inside binding a little bit when I worked the cueing lever.  Also, the pad only had about 3mm of cueing height, which concerned me and I wasn't sure I would get enough clearance with that big wood body cartridge mounted on the tonearm.  So I took the cueing device off of the turntable and brought it my desk to fiddle with it.  I called VPI about it and briefly spoke to someone who said these devices require some break in before they smooth out.  But after repeatedly fiddling around I lost my patience with it and submitted an email wtih a complaint via the VPI website.

I was very surprised when my cell phone rang about 10 minutes later.  It was VPI calling me.  I was even more surprised when the guy on the other end of the call turned out to be Mat Weisfeld, President of VPI.  I don't think I have ever met a more engaging, passionate, and enthusiastic person in my 40+ years in audio.  We casually chatted about audio for about 15 minutes and then the discussion focused on the cueing device.  He asked for my address and he had someone send me a replacement cueing device.  I had it the following day.  I don't know that the replacement was much better than the one that came with my turntable.  So I let VPI know that I was planning on sending the replacement unit back and would see if I can make some headway with the one that came with my Prime Signature.  Then I got another call from Andrew at VPI.  He said they had a slightly different cueing system that was produced by another supplier that he wanted me to try.  I said Ok, send it along.  That should be here today.  In the meantime I was able to resolve the issue with the cueing system I had by adding a small drop of sewing machine oil into the mechanism.  It is completely undamped but that is no problem for me at all.  I wouldn't trust any cueing device to automagically safely lower a stylus onto a record.  I control the height of the arm with the cueing lever.  The oil eliminated the binding in the action of the mechanism I was feeling.  So in the end I am satisfied with the result.  If this other cueing mechanism turns out to be an improvement then I will use it.

I don't want to make too big a deal over this.  The reason the cueing system was important to me is because I don't have the steadiest of hands and would much prefer a cueing system than cueing the stylus by hand.  But at no time was this ever a deal breaker for me and I never entertained the thought of doing something silly like calling Audio Advisor to ask them to RMA my turntable.  There are just too many positives to the VPI Prime Signature to get all twisted up over the cueing system.

So here I am with the set up completed and am now spinning records.





I am 100% satisfied with the VPI Prime Signature 21.  And just as important, I very much appreciate the world class customer service I received from VPI.

So how do I feel about the EAT Jo No.8 cartridge?  It's definitely a keeper.  Early impressions are very positive.  Tonal balance is on the slightly warm side of neutral.  The nude shibata stylus can retrieve a gobs of detail, though it's perhaps just a smidge less detailed than a very good special line contact stylus.  The sound is full and rich.  Very punchy and tight bottom end.  It tracks like champ.  The phono preamp I am using with it is a Rega Aria MKIII.

I'm going to be very happy with this combo.

You may recall from the thread title that I mentioned a Technics turntable.  This is also a new setup but I am not quite ready to talk about that yet.  I will post about it in another day or two.

--Jerome




« Last Edit: 17 Jul 2022, 12:28 am by jsaliga »

toocool4

Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #1 on: 16 Jul 2022, 03:05 pm »
Good to hear you are happy with your new turntable, looks like quite a journey from the Rega P10 to where you are now. Surprised you had issues with the Rega. Don’t fancy the Rega Naiad then?

I must admit, I never buy anything till I have had a chance to listen to it first and preferably in my room with my system. So going by reviews or a company’s reputation is a no no for me. Also I don’t change things too often, it takes a long time to synergise my system so changing things too often wrecks the synergy then it’s on a merry-go-round again looking at new kit that works well together.

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #2 on: 16 Jul 2022, 03:10 pm »
Good to hear you are happy with your new turntable, looks like quite a journey from the Rega P10 to where you are now. Surprised you had issues with the Rega. Don’t fancy the Rega Naiad then?

I must admit, I never buy anything till I have had a chance to listen to it first and preferably in my room with my system.

Many people, myself included, just don't have that luxury.  If I operated the same way you did I wouldn't have an audio system at all.  That is why I buy from sources that have customer-friendly return policies and no restocking fees.

Quote
Also I don’t change things too often, it takes a long time to synergise my system so changing things too often wrecks the synergy then it’s on a merry-go-round again looking at new kit that works well together.

Glad that works for you.  I don't share your view in this regard and I do what works for me.  When it comes to what goes into my system in my home, the only opinion that is of any consequence is mine.  What someone else thinks of it or what they do in their system is totally irrelevant as far as my choices are concerned.  I'm not interested in someone else's approval nor do I need their validation.  To each his own.

--Jerome

toocool4

Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #3 on: 16 Jul 2022, 03:25 pm »
Glad that works for you.  I don't share your view in this regard and I do what works for me.  When it comes to what goes into my system in my home, the only opinion that is of any consequence is mine.  What someone else thinks of it or what they do in their system is totally irrelevant as far as my choices are concerned.  I'm not interested in someone else's approval nor do I need their validation.  To each his own.

Of course, the only opinion that matters is your own. You are the one paying the money and the one that has to live with it. Which is why I do things my way and don’t listen to anyone else’s opinion.

/mp

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #4 on: 16 Jul 2022, 04:12 pm »
Enjoy in good health.
In a more perfect world, so would rosewood trees. ;|

twitch54

Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #5 on: 16 Jul 2022, 05:48 pm »
Jerome, from one satisfied VPI owner (AriesIII, Benz Gulwing) to another Congrats !

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #6 on: 16 Jul 2022, 07:57 pm »
Jerome, from one satisfied VPI owner (AriesIII, Benz Gulwing) to another Congrats !

Thanks!  :thumb:

--Jerome

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #7 on: 16 Jul 2022, 08:11 pm »
The second turntable is set up and ready to go.  It is a Technics SL-1200GR.  I bought it as an upgrade to replace the Pioneer PLX-1000, which has been sold.  I was waiting for a few goodies to arrive for this that I wasn't expecting until Monday, but the UPS man brought them by today.



Riding in the headshell of this turntable is a Audio-Technica AT-ART9Xi Dual Moving Coil Cartridge.

Frequency Response:   20-50,000 Hz
Channel Separation:   30 (dB at 1 kHz)
Vertical Tracking Angle: 20°
Vertical Tracking Force: 1.6-2.0 g (1.8 g standard)
Stylus Construction: Nude
Recommended Load Impedance   Min. 100 ohms (when head amplifier connected)
Coil Impedance   12 ohms (1 kHz)
DC Resistance   12 ohms
Coil Inductance   25 µH (1 kHz)
Output Voltage   0.5 mV (1 kHz, 5 cm/sec.)
Output Channel Balance   0.5 dB (1 kHz)
Stylus Shape   Special line contact
Cantilever   0.28 mm diameter solid boron
Static Compliance   25 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Dynamic Compliance   15 x 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz)
Mounting   Half-inch:
Cartridge Weight: 8.5 g (0.30 oz)



I just finished the setup about 20 minutes ago and spun the first side of Joe Jackson's album Look Sharp! on 180g vinyl.  While it needs a little break in time I already know I am going to love this cartridge.  This cartridge is very neutral tonally and exceptionally detailed, with the characteristics that I find very appealing of Audio-Technica moving coil cartridges: tight, punchy low end...shimmering cymbals, and rich midrange.  The AT-OC9/III is quite a bit like the ART9Xi but not quite as detailed.

So, why two turntables?  Good question.  The Technics will be used mostly for digital capture of vinyl to 24bit/192KHz.  The VPI will be used almost exclusively for listening to records.  I want dedicated machines for these purposes so I don't have to constantly be plugging a turntable into my recording interface whenever I want to make a needle drop and then having to switch everything back when I'm done.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: 18 Jul 2022, 09:20 am by jsaliga »

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #8 on: 21 Jul 2022, 11:15 pm »
Added a ring clamp from Wayne's Audio...



Will be putting the finishing touches on the new setup tomorrow.  A Parasound JC3 Jr. Phono Preamp is on the way and I will be using that with the Technics.

--Jerome

Rocket

Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #9 on: 22 Jul 2022, 01:36 pm »
Hello Jerome,

Thank you for your post.  I really enjoyed reading your story and journey towards the purchase of a VPI turntable.  I had a technics sl1200gr and the only reason I sold it was because I had 2 turntables and I had the packaging for the technics and not the Bryston. I thought the Technics tt was fabulous imo.

One of the best posts I've read on audiocircle for a long time. Enjoy your system Jerome :).

Cheers Rod

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #10 on: 22 Jul 2022, 01:54 pm »
Two very nice rigs.  I also looked at that Technics when I wasn't sure I could get my Victor TT-81 repaired.  I'm looking forward to your comparisons to it vs the Pioneer. 

Smartie_panta

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jul 2022, 12:08 am »
I'm new here and came across your post, because I myself also recently picked up a SL-1200GR. But your initial post was fabulous. You've had some amazing equipment over the years it sounds like, so it's nice to see you have two that have made good first impressions. When you mention "goodies" in your Technics post, did you mean tweaks/upgrades for that turntable? If so, may I ask what goodies you've added to it?

Rocket

Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jul 2022, 01:00 pm »
Hi,

Those old direct turntables sound fantastic as well. I had a denon dp1200 turntable until a couple of years ago and it sounded great and worked well.

Cheers Rod

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #13 on: 23 Jul 2022, 01:18 pm »
Hello Jerome,

Thank you for your post.  I really enjoyed reading your story and journey towards the purchase of a VPI turntable.  I had a technics sl1200gr and the only reason I sold it was because I had 2 turntables and I had the packaging for the technics and not the Bryston. I thought the Technics tt was fabulous imo.

One of the best posts I've read on audiocircle for a long time. Enjoy your system Jerome :).

Cheers Rod

Thanks so much for the kind words.

--Jerome

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #14 on: 23 Jul 2022, 01:39 pm »
Two very nice rigs.  I also looked at that Technics when I wasn't sure I could get my Victor TT-81 repaired.  I'm looking forward to your comparisons to it vs the Pioneer.

The comparison is fairly easy to make.  The Technics is a better built turntable from top to bottom and it uses better parts across the board.  It has superior isolation from vibrations than the Pioneer PLX 1000, the platter has much better damping, and the feet are also much better.  The SL-1200GR also has a coreless direct drive motor.  But it should have all of these things over the Pioneer PLX-1000.  The Technics costs $1,699 whereas the Pioneer will set you back only $699.

So the Technics a better turntable...no doubt about that.  Does it make better sounding music?  The answer is that it depends.  Because of the Pioneer's build quality and pedigree I was never confident in mounting an expensive cartridge on it.  That doesn't mean it is bad at making music.  If I felt that way I would have dumped it in a cold minute.  I used it with the Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III, which at less than $500 was a fantastic sounding cartridge that punched way above its price point.  With the Technics SL-1200GR I had none of those concerns.  While it may look similar to the DJ oriented SL-1200, the GR is designed as a slightly scaled back version of the SL-1200g -- which is priced at $4,000 and designed to appeal to audiophiles.  So the GR is geared towards audiophiles and not DJs.  I had no qualms about mounting an Audio-Technica AT-ART9XSi on it, at a cost of $1,280.  And this is proving to be a great fit for the SL-1200GR.  Combined with the Parasound Halo JC3 Jr. Phono Preamp, I would put the music making capabilities of this system (with a total price tag of $4,600) up against any rig (turntable + cartridge + phono pre) costing $15,000 or less...and maybe even a few costing more.

--Jerome

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jul 2022, 02:04 pm »
I knew they had made significant improvements to what was already and very good motor design.  I'm curious about the tonearm.  I always thought that was the weak link for the old DJ 1200's.  That was the area where I thought the upper JVC QL-F# series bested the Technics 1200(but gave up those gains with a cheap plinth).

jsaliga

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #16 on: 23 Jul 2022, 03:54 pm »
I knew they had made significant improvements to what was already and very good motor design.  I'm curious about the tonearm.

They made improvements across the board, including the tonearm.  The SL-1200GR has improved gimbal bearings that are manufactured to tighter tolerances, and the fit and finish is a big step up from the Technics SL-1200.  The SL-1200G has the same gimbal and bearing arrangement but also a magnesium arm tube and, if I am not mistaken, better arm wires.  The Technics SL-1200G and 1200GR may look like the older SL-1200, but the similarities end there.

I know of at least two people who are using expensive cartridges on their Technics SL-1200GR: one is using a Lyra Kleos and another is using a DS-W3 Optical Cartridge System from DS Audio.  I have also seen a DS-W3 on a Technics 1200G.  It doesn't really matter what someone else makes of that choice.  To me what matters is the owners of these turntables have the confidence in them to use those cartridges, and they are getting excellent results.  I share their confidence.  I'm a big fan of the Audio-Technica ART Series and I would have no reservations about mounting an AT-ART20 on my Technics 1200GR, and that's a $2,900 cartridge.  But for now, I'm pretty happy with the AT-ART9Xi.

--Jerome

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #17 on: 24 Jul 2022, 12:34 am »
I'm new here and came across your post, because I myself also recently picked up a SL-1200GR. But your initial post was fabulous. You've had some amazing equipment over the years it sounds like, so it's nice to see you have two that have made good first impressions. When you mention "goodies" in your Technics post, did you mean tweaks/upgrades for that turntable? If so, may I ask what goodies you've added to it?

Goodies just referred to stuff I needed to complete the setup such as cables, isolation platform, etc.

--Jerome

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jul 2022, 02:14 am »
Got it, thanks!

JeffS.

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Re: New Turntables in the house from VPI, Technics
« Reply #19 on: 27 Jul 2022, 03:53 am »
I’m a bit more interested in the comparison of the GR to the VPI Prime Signature.  I also have the PLX-1000 as a second table but have been looking at the Prime Signature as an upgrade to my primary system.

A few friends I know have moved to the 1200 G as their endgame turntable, but I have my doubts that it could best the Prime Signature.