X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live

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abd1

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #20 on: 24 Dec 2022, 03:53 pm »
I've never heard either but they both have good reps. There's so many good subs. I've had JL, Rythmik, and currenlt REL, plus some others have come and gone. Surprised no one has suggested Rythmik. Extremely fast, clean bass. Great detail and tone. One of the most musical subs I've heard plus can get down deep for HT. They're dual opposed models might be perfect for your application. They make a 15" and a 12" model.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP.html

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #21 on: 24 Dec 2022, 04:30 pm »
Yes… the Rythmik G25hP was on my list but they are out of white and it’s $500+ more than the PSA which can be ordered in a finish closely matching my X-3s.  :wink:

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #22 on: 31 Dec 2022, 06:18 pm »
I decided on the Arendal 1723 2S. Ordered yesterday. Probably 2 weeks before I can set it up.

dlynch34

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #23 on: 22 Jan 2023, 07:17 pm »
I've never heard either but they both have good reps. There's so many good subs. I've had JL, Rythmik, and currenlt REL, plus some others have come and gone. Surprised no one has suggested Rythmik. Extremely fast, clean bass. Great detail and tone. One of the most musical subs I've heard plus can get down deep for HT. They're dual opposed models might be perfect for your application. They make a 15" and a 12" model.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP.html

What I built was Rhythmik.. I used the GR research DIY plans and they leverage Rythmik amps which are very good amps especially in their sealed designs.

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #24 on: 22 Jan 2023, 07:25 pm »
That sounds great.  I have the sub now but it is still in the box. Long story but bottom line is I won’t be able to set it up and begin “dial in” until Feb. 3. You could say I am patient but that would be a lie. 😂

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #25 on: 6 Feb 2023, 12:56 am »
Hi all,
The Arendal 1723 2s sub is unboxed, and tuned for the room and the X3s with REW and dirac live 3.  The sub is definitely the missing link. It seems like a perfect marriage. The sub is flat from 16 to 100 hz in this room with only having to adjust phase to get there.  Can’t go wrong with this sub….dirac live also helped a lot in getting it close to perfect without installing acoustic treatments (wife still loves me).

Details: The preamp is NAD C658 (bluos streamer plus dirac live on board.
The amp is a Parasound A23+ (Class A/AB).

How I got to an “end point”.
Unboxing sub- beautiful experience white glove and all even though I didn’t use them.
I moved the sub in a position between the X-3s and slightly behind.
I opted (for now) to connect via RCA to preamp…. More on that later.
Next was to power on and see if it made sound.
Before moving speakers around I opted to do some SPL volume matching between sub and X3s as we all know every sub out is different for every pre amp.
With sub off, i sent a 50hz test tone to X3s and with meter (radio shack oldie but goody) directly on the grill I determined a reading on the left of 85db and dialed in the right speaker the same way (done previously so no change).
I then turned off the X3 bass amps, opened bluos app to tell the NAD I had a sub and crossed it at 100. I opened the Arendal app (yes can control everything via app over bluetooth). I sent the same 50hz signal again and upped volume on sub to match SPL I got from X3s. As is typical for NAD I needed quite a boost… i had to utilize the +6 db input gain and also turn it up an additional 14.5 db. I have not touched it since and I do believe this step is skipped by many and it’s important to marry the mains and sub.
The next bit took awhile… measured out the room and moved the X-3s from the wall in 6” increments and measured REW without sub. Surprisingly I got best measurements less than 1/5th width from wall. I have effectively no side walls as this room measures 100+ feet wide.  Next was sub by itself and REW and moving sub away from the wall but directly between X3s in 6 inch increments and phase 0,90 or 180 looking for max spl over 20 to 100hz. I settled on 8 inches and phase 180.
Next I tested crossovers (utilizing NADs or Arendals)… this is where it gets tricky as my endgame was to utilize Dirac live. Many of you will likely disagree with this next bit but I ended up crossing out the X3s at 100hz. It sounds best both by ear and by REW. It could be room specific and/or the crossover slope in the NAD (dont know if it’s 24,18,12 or 6db slope) but it sounds great.
Next I utilized Dirac live 3… I took many measurements choosing wide sound stage…. And saved their default, a +5 db bass boost (where I boosted 20 to near 150hz
 and then did a deep dive choosing all my own points to adjust and saved 2 more filters after assesment with REW. I am very happy where it is now…. Only took 3 days! 😂
I will post a pic if I can.
« Last Edit: 6 Feb 2023, 04:54 pm by pmorcos »

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #26 on: 6 Feb 2023, 12:59 am »







kd4ylq

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #27 on: 6 Feb 2023, 02:51 pm »
Thanks for posting your process in detail! If it's not too much trouble, please post some of the response graphs (if you saved them) as the process evolved and you hit your best looking & sounding result. The Dirac aims for a flat power response I have read, is that correct? Does that differ from a flat F.R. curve, and if so why? Something that has puzzled me for some time and I would like to know before my MiniDSP & umik arrives later this month. I look forward to doing much the same with my Spatial M3 Turbos. Good job!  :wink:

pmorcos

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Re: X-3s in 2.1 with a single sub and dirac live
« Reply #28 on: 6 Feb 2023, 06:30 pm »
I did save many sets of REW measurements but the laptop is packed up…. Will post at some point.
However I dont think it helps to look at others measurements because every system/room is different and you can not achieve or do you want a perfectly flat response as you know.
By REW my target for my ears and room are approximately flat bass and roughly +5 db higher than the rest of the curve through 100hz and a slope down 5db to 150hz.
For me there were two issues in listening to the X3s in this room: muddy bass (which I did not experience in previous room) and in-my-face lower mids (which I have always experienced with the X3s).

Lets talk about REW, Dirac, and NAD (bluos observations)….

REW: I’M running REW on a quality laptop with SPDIF /optical out and a UMIK-1 usb microphone.
I have some confidence in the output from my laptop (which has THX certification on the soundcard), however I have no way of determining if the output signal is flat 20hz-20khz as I can not create a closed loop without spending money on an additional piece of equipment. With that said I did test an entirely different laptop and I did get the same curve in REW sending a 24bit, 48khz signal into optical….
I did do 1/6th octave curve smoothing during analysis (most people do 1/3rd octave smoothing).

Dirac: i do believe Dirac is very different depending on the component you are using and for NAD it appears to be made to be “easy”, dare I say “dumbed down”.  I digress. I can choose to plug the mic into the NAD or into the laptop and the Dirac software will easily find either and simple calibration file incorporation.  I chose to keep the microphone plugged in the laptop.  After adjusting volume (my target SPL 75db at mic) and doing all the measurements…. Dirac default design is just two shelves… one bass and one treble shelf that you can slide up or down. Their default has a slightly higher bass shelf than treble and yes… mostly flat target with some rolloff on the high end.
I did listen to the default filter sent to the NAD and like many others it was good but “missing” for my ears. First, it’s very different in comparison to turning it off… but what I noticed is the soundstage is a little less warm but much cleaner and precise… which can put some people off.  I did pay the extra $ to make my Dirac full range (not just bass). After moving the bass shelf up approximately 5db and saving that I switched Dirac mode to choosing my own control points (you can even add control points).  This is where I brought some of the mids back and even some frequency response in 1-3khz region that default Dirac overly tamed (both by REW measurement and my ears). That completely fixed what was missing from default Dirac while maintaining the soundstage and unmuddy fast response in the bass.

The NAD c658: I knew going in this was not the perfect device that it could have been… no USB audio in, a middle if not mediocre DAC, and sub out handling as an afterthought.
However, I am all in with Bluos as I have other bluos devices and I love that I can easily stream high quality audio and it’s simple enough for others in the house to use and actually listen to music. I’m very much a “less is more” kind of audiophile.  With that said it seems to pair nicely with the Parasound amp and sounds great… I have had no issues with hiccups or perceptible jitter.  Sadly/oddly the NAD has balanced outputs for left and right channel but not the sub out.
The Arendal has dual balanced in and dual balanced out. At some point I am going to run xlrs from the NAD mains to the sub, and back to the Parasound. See how it sounds utilizing the incredible onboard dsp of the sub along with Dirac in NAD. I suspect in this scenario Dirac will not “see” the sub so I may not really achieve proper time domain correction. Thats for another time when I have 3 days to fiddle again. 😂