[meracus]

hello chaps
is it still possible to upgrade a 3 to a triode master ?
I would have asked spatial direct , but given the current events I thought I won't overload the company with more request ( I asked for help a month or so ago and had no reply so I think not a good time )
my quibble with the sound is that the speaker lacks height , I have noticed that sound stops around the end of the baffle , not a huge deal , but I wondered what can one do to improve that aspect and maybe more
is this common amongst users ?
thanks

[kd4ylq]

I've read this question from somebody else's post and the answer was no - the drivers are different (probably the xovers too).  So, you are really much better off buying the Triode versions already built IF you are sure that you like their sound better in the same configuration. I have the M3 Turbos and they have plenty of image "height" - far more than any other speaker my wife and I have owned or heard (at times at least 2X the height of the speakers themselves). Are you sure you about the music source quality you are judging the speakers by? Have you exhausted all the setup recommendations & possibilities in your listening space? I'll bet that is where the problem is rather than the speakers themselves. Good luck with the investigation & keep at it until you know everything is spot on. The journey is worth the effort!

[meracus]

Hi thanks for that
I like the speakers a lot ( Avantgarde duo / zu driud user  ) , maybe it’s because im missing a footer ( lost during transit ) and that sort of skews the positioning maybe ???
I use decent electronics ( devialet or Hattor hypex integrated ) and source is a holo audio kitsune level 3  or devialet internal dac
Maybe it’s just the records ? Do you have details of when you hear twice the height ( album name maybe )
I listen to them is a near field well almost position
Around 6-7 foot away from me and there’s about 3 feet behind them
When using the devialet , I put Sam on and I eq them as an m4 , that spices the bass quite a bit and I like the tunefulness and impact

[genjamon]

I remember bringing my M1 Turbo S over to a friend's house one time for a get-together.  It was a larger space, and the speakers were farther off the side walls than in my home setup, so I thought the soundstage size would be even greater with more room to breathe.  But we just couldn't get them to open up in his space.  I was very un-moved by the sound.  Then when I hooked them back up at home, the soundstage opened right back up.  I have no idea what wasn't working about that room, but maybe if he kept them for a couple weeks we could have found a spot where they opened up. 

So, I guess I'm with the other poster - keep trying to exhaust all your setup options. 

In my home setup, I had them spaced very wide, and only about a foot from the side walls, even though they were about five feet from the rear wall.  The room was a bit narrow, only about 11.5 ft wide, but about 25ft deep and with a big bookshelf across the whole rear wall that helped with diffusion.  So, the speakers were in the ballpark of 6-7ft between them, and listening position was a little more than that from each of them, maybe 8-9ft. 

At my buddy's place, the speakers were probably 8ft off the rear wall, and maybe 2-3ft off the side walls, but listening position was probably 10ft away, so further away.  And rear wall at his place was maybe only 3-4 ft from listening position vs the 12-15ft at my house. 

So, near-ish field listening, or roughly equilateral, sounds appropriate.  But how much space behind the listening position?  And what's the spacing to your side walls?  And are your floors carpet or reflective surface?

[meracus]

Thanks for that
Well literally about a foot behind my head , large padded wall made of decorative fabric and foam
Ceiling height is about 10ft or a little more
To the side walls , maybe 2ft on one side and 4 on the other reason being one side has a large dresser about 2 ft deep
Nice thick carpet on floor and big low slung sofa made of foam and fabric
Speakers maybe 7 ft apart , I get very nice soundstage horizontally
But stops just an inch or two above the panel
Ok …. I keep experimenting … speaker easy to move

[genjamon]

Ha, sounds a lot more like my buddy's place than mine!  He also had vaulted ceilings and carpeted floors, whereas mine were fairly low ceilings, sloping 7-8 feet, and laminate floors with a medim-sized low pile area rug in the area of the seating position.  Might be that ceiling bounce is a significant contributor to perception of soundstage height? 

[Mr. Big]

There is so much info on room acoustics out there and room setup. Easy to learn and do if you have a dedicated room for audio and another for HT both have totally different needs.  Rooms and their acoustics matter as much as gear. Folks swap speakers all the time trying to find the sound they like or their equipment, add tubes, add EQ devices that can do more harm than good, but spend very little on their rooms and their impact, I say that is ass-backward. No music hall I've been to is flat sounding or natural all have their sound be it the Cleveland Orch or the NY Philharmonic because their hall acoustics are different they don't ruin it by EQ it away. Flat sounds like it is, flat.

[RichPark]

Have you tried tilting speakers back?

[meracus]

richpark ... thought about that looking how the new line up tilts backward , for the moment im missing one footer ( posted a wanted on here )
im unable to do that for both speakers
isn't the point of coax compression driver on a 15 is act as a constant directivity waveguide ? I mean doesn't harm to give it a shot , logical !
they sound nice , just the height thing , I like extra height , sort of adds to sense of occasion , during the early stage of the pandemic , I bought a Maggie and a pass 150 ...... the height of the 2,7 qr was a nice thing ..... big wall

[kd4ylq]

Meracus,
             we listen to so much music that picking out something for you specifically for just image height is difficult, but I will say that the Brian Wilson "No Pier Pressure" album comes to mind as one with huge height and front to back & side depth. I hope you like the music (we don't think there is a bad track on the whole disc). Perhaps others will add some program material that they know to have outstanding "height" for you to try. Next, yes constant directivity surely is a key to the compression driver radiation pattern and coaxial mounting is also a big factor IMO. Tipping the speaker on its side by dint of a missing foot is a no-no for sure. BTW, I replaced the feet on my M3 Turbos with casters so that they can be easily rolled into position for listening in one of 3 different prime listening room locations and to zero in on the exact positions quickly; I have small strips of blue painters' tape on the wood floor to help me repeat the locations. It also lets me roll them back against the wall when not in use. Some folks say this causes a loss in the bottom end, but I use a subwoofer for the bottom octave anyway and never noticed a difference, with or without the sub. The casters add ~2" to the height of the speakers, with no tilt (I never did experiment with tilt angle to be honest). We have vaulted ceilings and area rugs which help control early reflections. Your electronics are great, so don't worry about them.

[Mr. Big]

A good rule of speaker setup I learned years ago, get a true mono recording, start where you currently have your speakers move them closer by 3", and listen to see if the sound becomes meatier or thinner, if you hear little change they leave them where they were, 2nd then go to toe-in, 1/4" at a time, toe them in until you get a solid and I mean solid center image between the speakers, not a stretched or bloated image when you toe-in when you think you have toe-in another 1/4" if you lose what you had you now know you hit the right spot, when you go back to stereo you will have an outstanding reproduction in front of you image-wise for your room and its size, image height has a lot to do with the recording, I have some that go above my M3's and others that hang around the speaker, it, not the speaker it is the recordings, some speakers artificially make imaging wide and tall on many recoridngs where it should not be that way, lots of games they can do with drivers in and out of polarity and with the crossover to produce an effect, and many speakers they are mixed with both in and out of phase drivers by design. Listen to a Quad speaker with no crossover and a true point source and you will be amazed at how a true coherent speaker sounds size and tone-wise. 

[ric]

Meracus, I have the M3TS and fairly early on after getting them I looked into upgrading a few of the crossover parts, which is the weakest link in the chain IMO (cheap parts). It was daunting for me to do, but I ended up having an outboard crossover, using Jupiter caps (6.8uf and 68uf) and a Path resistor (30 ohm, I think). The path resistor will give you the heightened soundstage, and the caps will give richness, body, texture and soundstage as well.
   It was expensive, but the resistors are cheap, so you might want to do those first. IMO, huge upgrade, no regrets.
let me know if you have any more questions, good luck!!

[meracus]

Hey ric thanks for the pointer
I did a magnepan crossover upgrade on my 2.7
Went all silver jantzen with massive coils etc and
Truth be told … was only a marginal improvement and I couldn’t tell 100% if there was any improvement at all
Spatial  designer seems to be knowledgeable and I always wondered why a designer would kill a design by going cheap on parts , I know some manufacturers do just that but he didn’t come across as a compromiser
Did you change values or just went boutique ?
On the 2.7 … I bypassed the fuses and the multiple solder point and put a nice Audioquest hook up wire and all
At the time was using a pass 150 and bricasti M1 dac
It was a total waste of money in my opinion .. I never bothered putting it back to stock and subsequently never tried to sell it in that state … the 2.7 has been standing in state for the last 4 years
Shame as I wanted it to “improve “
Why did you do the outboard … size constraint ?

[meracus]

[ric]

yes, my guess is that originally Clayton wanted to design a low cost alternative to box speakers and that using more expensive crossover parts would not only add to the overall cost, but he wanted to house the parts inside the tiny space--just conjecture on my part.
Since I used the Coke can size Jupiter caps I HAD to put them on the outside.
    I'm not sure why you would not hear differences in the Maggie upgrade, but you might consider just changing the M3's resistor to a Path Audio.
I did not change any capacitor values, just replaced the cheaper parts with better quality parts.
   Since caps can be prohibitively expensive, I would love to see speaker designers offer different upgrades at varying price points, but there again that would take much more work on the part of the designer and parts supply.
Good luck!

[kd4ylq]

I think Clayton uses his ears (and listening panels) extensively in choosing all the components of his speaker designs and cost plays only a minor part in the final choice. Look the history of his companies and the cost of his designs over elapsed if you don't believe the man. One thing that is relatively easy to try on the M3 Turbos is to disconnect the speakers from the wires to the stock crossover and use MiniDSP HD to implement an active electronic crossover biamplified speaker. The voicing options and performance increase possibilities are far more complete than with a lumped value passive crossover. If you already have a second amplifier, also far cheaper and quicker to experiment with until you are satisfied with the results.

[meracus]

Ric I hear you , I couldn’t  hear the benefit simply because there was none to my ears  , I undertaken the change for the same reasons I heard from  fellow audiophiles the argument of space and cost etc
I asked about values simply because the only time I heard changes was redoing an apogee xover and the values where different ( hence the xover point and slopes ) yes that had a positive effect 
Kd4 … im toying with the  idea of a mini dsp ( I have a 4x2 laying somewhere )
Upon trials this afternoon , positioning makes a very significant change far more then anticipated ..
the quest continue

[meracus]