Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra

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forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #20 on: 4 Jan 2023, 06:16 pm »
Just another thought...other than Ron at New Record Day who was using the Sapphires for his reference and said that they marched right to the edge of being too revealing without going over, it hasn't seemed like there are many people using OB's for reviews...or even admitting they own them.  At any rate, I've noticed that Ron doesn't show any of the Spatials on his YouTube channel lately and wondered if he was getting flak for being a fanboy.

Clayton has done more than anyone to "legitimize" OB speakers as belonging to the "in crowd" group...and to make them worthy of the living room with his beautiful designs....although my wife doesn't completely agree and over the holidays asked me if it was time to get new speakers as she knows that I generally mix things up every year or so just for the sake of change.

Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look  :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.

DaveWin88

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #21 on: 5 Jan 2023, 02:47 pm »
Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look  :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.
I was thinking the same about, maybe a dynamic speaker would be a better fit for your listening habits. Maybe a pair of Klipsch larger models? Open baffle speakers tend to be on the quiet side if you will.

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #22 on: 5 Jan 2023, 03:26 pm »
I was thinking the same about, maybe a dynamic speaker would be a better fit for your listening habits. Maybe a pair of Klipsch larger models? Open baffle speakers tend to be on the quiet side if you will.

Yes, I'm actually leaning towards Cornwall IV or Volti Razz.....maybe a Walsh Ohm. Of those three I'm leaning towards the Razz. I'll hear them at the Tampa hifi show next month. They get good reviews but the measurements are - not good. I don't know much about those and just read about that last night. I'll hear them for myself and decide. Then there is the X4 as well but a bit more than I want to spend. Also, once I hook the Mirages back up I may even just go w/ those and add a few RELs.

I read through Spatial's site this morning and there is a 5 year warranty and mentions they have the right to change parts if the orignal is NLA (paraphrasing). So....I"ll wait for them to reply and hook up the Mirages and wait. Clayton was great about it last time it happened and realize he has more important things right now (but hopefully Justin will reply soon).

Mr. Big

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #23 on: 5 Jan 2023, 03:39 pm »
Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look  :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.

There does not seem to be a lot of talk of tweeter failures on the M3s. I have played very loud at times and a few times forgetting to turn the volume down from a recording where I really had to raise the volume level, and then the next recording was night and day louder, and the blast and that is what it still did not damage. I know from my past experience when tweeters fried it was caused by your amp or gear in the system or even the speaker cable in the case of some very early Kimber Cable speaker cable caused the amp to become unstable. Makes me wonder why you have had such unfortunate issues. I feel for you.

RonN5

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #24 on: 5 Jan 2023, 03:48 pm »
I suspect that Volti will bring both the Razz and the Rivals as they did last year and then swap them out every hour or so.  If you like the Razz...DO NOT listen to the Rivals.

Two other suggestions based on budget, sound and dynamics....make sure to go to the MOFI room to see the new Andrew Jones speakers and make sure to go to the Soundfield Audio room to see anything AJ has there...his stuff always sounds fantastic.

It should be a fun show because its not usually obnoxiously crowded.


Tangram

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #25 on: 6 Jan 2023, 05:21 pm »
Forky, with respect, what are the odds of you blowing TWO M3 tweeters and the problem is with the tweeters? My science brain says very low. Outside chance it is the crossover, but beyond that...

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #26 on: 6 Jan 2023, 06:31 pm »
Forky, with respect, what are the odds of you blowing TWO M3 tweeters and the problem is with the tweeters?

Pretty high I'd say.    :P

Seriously, the first one was my fault. I was playing a very clean (not much mid range) song & recording and wanted to see how loud it would go before they distorted. There was no distortion that I could hear but one of them gave out and the other one wasn't happy either. (cutting in-and-out IIRC). That could have been the amp clipping causing  the tweeter to blow or ...maybe not but I think that is a strong possibility. The volume knob (I know this varies per preamp and recording) was at around probably 7.5-8-ish. It hans't been near then since!

This past one though was a complete surprise and unexpected. The volume was at around 4.5 or so and as I mentioned probably around 85-90 db w/ peaks of 95 (maybe not that much) and also didn't sound distorted that I could hear. I think the chances of my 50-ish watt per channel clipping at 95 db with speakers that are 93/ per watt (or somewhere around that) are extremely low. On the other hand we have a tweeter handling frequencies as low as 576 hz. There is another thread where someone blew there tweeter and stated his Pass Labs never left Class A when it happened. So while possiblle the amp clipped a few days ago I think it is highly unlikely.

All that said, my original post was less about why this happened but that there was some (valid, IMO) concern by Catluck in Sept about what will happen if a Peerless tweeter is blown and the tweeters are NLA. This resonated with me as I was wondering if it would get answered (I have a feeling though this is when Clayton started to get sick :(   , not sure though) as it was a good question. Once Spatial replies (hopefully Justin will at some point) I'll update everyone and we (Sapphire owners) will know.

I did receive a PM asking me about DC being an issue. I don't know but I do have a dedicated line if that helps. I also have a whole-house surge protector.

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #27 on: 6 Jan 2023, 06:36 pm »
I suspect that Volti will bring both the Razz and the Rivals as they did last year and then swap them out every hour or so.  If you like the Razz...DO NOT listen to the Rivals.

Two other suggestions based on budget, sound and dynamics....make sure to go to the MOFI room to see the new Andrew Jones speakers and make sure to go to the Soundfield Audio room to see anything AJ has there...his stuff always sounds fantastic.

It should be a fun show because its not usually obnoxiously crowded.

I traded a few emails with Greg and he mentioned the Rivals but $15k is not in the cards at this time. I'd like to stay around $7k or below. That said, if I get a new M4 tweeter and slighly higher crossover then maybe I would keep the Sapphires. I don't need 100 max db but I do see peaks of 95 from time-to-time. Very rarely over that though - almost never....except that one time in '21 although I didn't have my DB meter on. I do turn that meter on almost every time I listen btw.

Your post did inspire me to watch a few mofi youtube vids yesterday though. I do look forward to hearing them.

RonN5

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #28 on: 6 Jan 2023, 08:11 pm »
You may well like the Razz… they will really go loud… but I think they may need a sub… not because they don’t have bass… but a sub blended in around 80-100 would just give them an overall fuller sound… at least to my ears.

Greg is a good guy and with the tweeter and midrange resistors he now puts on the back… they are tunable… but I still give a pretty good leg up to the overall M3 sound.

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #29 on: 6 Jan 2023, 08:42 pm »
Bummer, good subs aren't cheap and I like bass. On that note the M3 bass is fantastic to my ears. hmmm.

WGH

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #30 on: 6 Jan 2023, 09:26 pm »
Pretty high I'd say.    :P

w/ peaks of 95

Yup, that would do it. Are you still using the Primaluna 300 that has 1% THD? Too bad Stereophile hasn't reviewed it, JA would have noted THD at clipping.

My Salk HT2-TL speakers easily go to 95dB but that is super loud, the Seas drivers are too clean so all the nasties become unbearable. Even using the 225 w/channel AVA SET 400 I think something in the speakers would eventually break after a few hours.

Since you have already mentioned other speakers I'll toss out the Odyssey Liquids. Klaus demos these speakers at 90-95dB, definitely no sub needed. But first call Klaus to find out their efficiency.
I found a review on AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0

The used pair at The Music Room are still available for $3267
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/

dallaire1

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #31 on: 6 Jan 2023, 10:07 pm »
Best of luck with the new model Clayton !! I'm still in love with the M3's still mind blowing. I have gone bat shit crazy with REW and passive treatment, I think the M3's in a treated room is simply amazing ! NO listening fatigue at all..

Mr. Big

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #32 on: 7 Jan 2023, 12:31 am »
Best of luck with the new model Clayton !! I'm still in love with the M3's still mind-blowing. I have gone bat shit crazy with REW and passive treatment, I think the M3's in a treated room is simply amazing ! NO listening fatigue at all..

Correct. The M3s are superb when you set up right, treat the room and feed them good signals and recordings—the room is a HUGE component of our systems. Really no different than any good speakers, rooms matter, and setup matters. I see a costly system with TVs between the speakers, a love seat and chairs right by the speakers, and non-treated glass windows and I think to myself with all that money spent you never invested in a good room and acoustics, thus throwing your money away because you will never hear what you paid for. I will say this if the M3s were bright and aggressive like many speakers today they have been long gone. I can make them sound bad of course and that be by removing my treatments and listening to the room.  A good speaker gives you what you feed it and that includes the room it is sitting in.

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jan 2023, 06:45 pm »
Yup, that would do it. Are you still using the Primaluna 300 that has 1% THD? Too bad Stereophile hasn't reviewed it, JA would have noted THD at clipping.

My Salk HT2-TL speakers easily go to 95dB but that is super loud, the Seas drivers are too clean so all the nasties become unbearable. Even using the 225 w/channel AVA SET 400 I think something in the speakers would eventually break after a few hours.

Since you have already mentioned other speakers I'll toss out the Odyssey Liquids. Klaus demos these speakers at 90-95dB, definitely no sub needed. But first call Klaus to find out their efficiency.
I found a review on AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0

The used pair at The Music Room are still available for $3267
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/

Thansk and yes to 1% THD according to Upscales's site. Streophile did review it's big brother, the Evo 400 int but not the 300 (all tube). At 92/db per watt, 95 is only slightly over that and peaks, not continuous. But you guys know more about spec and how this stuff works than I do. Again I only listen in Ultralinear, in the 4 ohm taps and have KT-150s so I'm at least slightly over the published power.

Anyway...I've been doing my normal overthinking about this over the past few days to include how I listen to music. I think part of the reason I turn up the volume to a certain level is that I want to feel the music (but it to be accurate and not sloppy /bloated) so the volume goes up until that happens. Maybe the 17 yo in me, which I admit I still have. I'd like to keep the M3s and make them work. But maybe I do need to look elsewhere --- but I'm wondering if a nice REL S/12 or similar would help with that and would also clean up the mids as well.....?  Most posts I have seen for subs with the M3s have been either negative or just not needed but I'm a special bass needs kid (at heart).


RonN5

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #34 on: 10 Jan 2023, 07:37 pm »
Forky...I think the question is "what are you asking a sub/subs to do"?

From just a musical standpoint, with almost all bass being above 50hz.....are you asking the subs to....

1.  Provide bass below 50 hz that your speakers can't do

2.  Provide bass below 50hz that the room is stealing

3.  Augment already good bass below 50/60 hz just to add some punch

5.  Help the mid bass about by running dual stereo subs and crossing over in the 80-120 range

These are just a few of the possible combinations....but until you can answer them, relative to your chosen speakers and how they perform in your room, you will just flail around.

In my case....M3 Sapphires....huge room, 1200 sq. ft....the Sapphires have really good toneful and punchy bass down below 40 hz.  I also have a good 15" sealed sub...Power Sound Audio S1500...no remote, no PEQ...no fancy anything...but great sound....so, if I turn it on, cross it around 50hz....resist any temptation to turn it up so that it overpowers the great sound the Sapphires put out...what I get is a slightly augmented bottom end...with just a little more punch...most of the time, I have it off, I'm not looking for a "nightclub" type of sound.  Most of the time, I have it turned off.

Also, if you are just looking for augmentation down in the 50 hz and below range where the music doesn't really have much tone, I'd say that anything REL is going to work...but you are way over paying.

So, what are you asking a sub/s to do?

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #35 on: 10 Jan 2023, 07:49 pm »
Forky...I think the question is "what are you asking a sub/subs to do"?

From just a musical standpoint, with almost all bass being above 50hz.....are you asking the subs to....

1.  Provide bass below 50 hz that your speakers can't do

2.  Provide bass below 50hz that the room is stealing

3.  Augment already good bass below 50/60 hz just to add some punch

5.  Help the mid bass about by running dual stereo subs and crossing over in the 80-120 range

These are just a few of the possible combinations....but until you can answer them, relative to your chosen speakers and how they perform in your room, you will just flail around.

In my case....M3 Sapphires....huge room, 1200 sq. ft....the Sapphires have really good toneful and punchy bass down below 40 hz.  I also have a good 15" sealed sub...Power Sound Audio S1500...no remote, no PEQ...no fancy anything...but great sound....so, if I turn it on, cross it around 50hz....resist any temptation to turn it up so that it overpowers the great sound the Sapphires put out...what I get is a slightly augmented bottom end...with just a little more punch...most of the time, I have it off, I'm not looking for a "nightclub" type of sound.  Most of the time, I have it turned off.

Also, if you are just looking for augmentation down in the 50 hz and below range where the music doesn't really have much tone, I'd say that anything REL is going to work...but you are way over paying.

So, what are you asking a sub/s to do?

Thanks Ron, I was thinking mostly #1 but possibly #5. I don't want to add anything that isn't there (no nightclub) and just take a load off the M3s say, 50 and below and will also give me 20-35 which isn't there - although I realize some (most?) music doesn't go much below 35. When I read or watch subwoofer reviews it is usually comments like "a fuller sound" or sometimes "music (bass) I didn't know was there" and even "it cleared up the mids and I heard stuff I haven't heard before".

Btw, I'm not stuck on REL. I was also reading about Rythmic subs which seem to be well regarded and cost much less.

Thanks for the extra info and things to think about. As mentioned it may wind up that I just "need" to go to another speaker but I would like to keep the M3s if I can get them to work with me.

Also wondering that even if I do have my own dedicated power line if dirty power could have been a contributor(?). If so then maybe the PSM 156 gets moved to the front of the list.

WGH

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #36 on: 10 Jan 2023, 09:31 pm »
--- but I'm wondering if a nice REL S/12 or similar would help with that and would also clean up the mids as well.....?  Most posts I have seen for subs with the M3s have been either negative or just not needed but I'm a special bass needs kid (at heart).

A REL sub is really a sub subwoofer, they are designed to reproduce the lowest low notes. The preferred connection is from the amplifier speaker terminals, the sub then sees the exactly same sonic signature as the main speakers. REL subs do not have any low pass or high pass filters, they are not designed to take the bass load off the main speakers.

I use a REL, they have the fastest bass of all subs and easily keep up with the SEAS and RAAL drivers. I have heard REL with Magnapan 3.7 and 1.7i speakers, they all blend seamlessly. If you hear a REL sub it is too loud, but dance music like Parov Stelar hits a lot harder with a REL, the album "Moonlight Love Affair" is my favorite.



A friend just picked up a used S/510 at half price, it punches hard for it's size and it goes down to 20Hz, some affordable RELs don't go that low. You really need 20Hz to experience audio nirvana. Room size and loudness will determine what model will work for you. I always suggest calling the REL factory, they have excellent pre-sales support and can advise what will work best, not necessarily the most expensive.

The Music Room always has great deals on REL subs
https://tmraudio.com/search-results-page?q=rel%20subwoofers

RonN5

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #37 on: 11 Jan 2023, 03:27 am »
Forky, one of the many strengths of the M3 Sapphire is the tone of the lower and mid bass… probably because of the driver choice and open baffle… so if you cross the M3 out at 80 hz as an example, you lose the tone… and there is no issue with the dual 15”ers handling the volume.

If you keep the Sapphires, then I’d run them full range and cross in a good sub around 50hz give or take.


Mr. Big

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #38 on: 11 Jan 2023, 04:36 pm »
Forky, one of the many strengths of the M3 Sapphire is the tone of the lower and mid bass… probably because of the driver choice and open baffle… so if you cross the M3 out at 80 hz as an example, you lose the tone… and there is no issue with the dual 15”ers handling the volume.

If you keep the Sapphires, then I’d run them full range and cross in a good sub around 50hz give or take.

Clayton told if I were to use a sub-woofer set the crossover at 40Hz or lower. He said it be the best blend without messing with the sound of the M3. I tried it and he was correct, he also said for 99% of the music played you really won't need a subwoofer and some might feel after breaking and proper setup they have too much bass.

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #39 on: 11 Jan 2023, 07:05 pm »
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.

Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.