Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra

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Tangram

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #40 on: 12 Jan 2023, 05:34 pm »
Bummer, good subs aren't cheap and I like bass. On that note the M3 bass is fantastic to my ears. hmmm.

Looks like you are moving onto the Voltis (that is one of the only speakers I would consider other than the Spatials) but I played around with adding in two SVS SB2000 Pros over the holidays (I use them in my home theater). These subs don’t have audiophile cred BUT the phone app and DSP are soooooo useful. Long story short: they didn’t do it for me, after much fiddling. I reverted back to my Schiit Lokius to bump the M3’s sub-bass a bit. Sounds divine.

No more fiddling for me.

aniwolfe

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #41 on: 13 Jan 2023, 03:31 pm »
Looks like you are moving onto the Voltis (that is one of the only speakers I would consider other than the Spatials) but I played around with adding in two SVS SB2000 Pros over the holidays (I use them in my home theater). These subs don’t have audiophile cred BUT the phone app and DSP are soooooo useful. Long story short: they didn’t do it for me, after much fiddling. I reverted back to my Schiit Lokius to bump the M3’s sub-bass a bit. Sounds divine.

No more fiddling for me.

Did you try the 24 db slope at 40hz? That was the magic setting for me.

harley.guy07

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #42 on: 13 Jan 2023, 08:04 pm »
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.

Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.

I had the Volti Audio Razz in my home for review just a few months ago and have been to the factory. Got to hang out with Greg Roberts and see his factory. Volti is the real deal. They make a great product and use top-quality components. I myself have Spatial Audio speakers and the Volti are one of the few box speakers I would look at if going back. Their midrange performance alone is a revelation!

whydontumarryit

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #43 on: 13 Jan 2023, 09:20 pm »
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.

Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.

Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $6k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.

How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2023, 10:31 pm by whydontumarryit »

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #44 on: 13 Jan 2023, 09:26 pm »
Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $20k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.

How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.

Have you heard them? They are not $20k and this topic has been beaten to death on other sites, in comments on tests and also Greg. I've probably read them all.

Besides, it looks like I have found a new set of speakers that are not the Razz. I'll update for anyone interested once further along.

Also another THANK YOU to the very awesome and generous AC member who has a spare set of M3 tweeters and will be mailing them to me. I am really, very, truly grateful.

whydontumarryit

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #45 on: 13 Jan 2023, 10:40 pm »
Have you heard them? They are not $20k and this topic has been beaten to death on other sites, in comments on tests and also Greg. I've probably read them all.

Besides, it looks like I have found a new set of speakers that are not the Razz. I'll update for anyone interested once further along.

Also another THANK YOU to the very awesome and generous AC member who has a spare set of M3 tweeters and will be mailing them to me. I am really, very, truly grateful.

Thank goodness you came to your senses. I suspect you weren't really serious about the Razz anyway.

There is one possibility for a seemingly favorable impression of the Razz, It must be that not only is synergy a thing when combining various components it is something that can be taken advantage of by combining the objectively horrible measurements of a loudspeaker's characteristics and somehow getting the sum total to spit out something that represents the sound of a musical instrument… to some people.

For some reason finding out that it is 6k vs 20k didn't make me feel any less sick to my stomach.




DaveWin88

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #46 on: 14 Jan 2023, 12:51 am »
Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $6k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.

How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.
Am I missing something here. The review looked very positive?

whydontumarryit

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #47 on: 14 Jan 2023, 01:39 am »
Hi Dave,

I didn't read read the review, just looked at the measurements. If the reviewer said anything positive rhe disconnect between hearing and measurement credibility has reached new levels. Stereophile needs to decide if the Absolute Sound or rhe ASR route is what makes sense because if they imagine a correlation between what you imply the listener heard and what JA measured it must be obvious that these people are the epitomy of pandering lackeys for the cause.

p.s. is that LP inside the triangle room dominated 3d soundstage speaker positioning still working for you?

DaveWin88

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #48 on: 14 Jan 2023, 11:40 pm »
Hi Dave,

I didn't read read the review, just looked at the measurements. If the reviewer said anything positive rhe disconnect between hearing and measurement credibility has reached new levels. Stereophile needs to decide if the Absolute Sound or rhe ASR route is what makes sense because if they imagine a correlation between what you imply the listener heard and what JA measured it must be obvious that these people are the epitomy of pandering lackeys for the cause.

p.s. is that LP inside the triangle room dominated 3d soundstage speaker positioning still working for you?
You'll have to hold my hand on this one sorry. You might have to be more specific.

Mr. Big

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #49 on: 15 Jan 2023, 12:17 am »
In the end, this is how a piece of gear sounds. From experience gear from the late '70s to 80's did not spec out as gear today, but guess what it sounded better more like real music because back then they compare to a master tape they made of a live piano and see how close it came, one label Opus3 made recordings that sound like they were in the room, the master amp, a Dynacio stereo 70. I watch these YouTube reviews that just use specs and they bomb stuff because it does not spec out ideally like they think it should, worthless, it's how the gear sounds in your system. I go to audio stores today and the systems sound like crap, anti-musical all detail of highs and tight lows with no midbass to support the midrange. Any speaker would sound anemic using gear like that. Be it Spatial or Dynaudio to Electrostatics or panels. But they spec out great. You can keep them.

2bigears

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #50 on: 15 Jan 2023, 12:57 am »
 :D the Aurum Cantus tweets to me were hot. And one failed on me. They are cheap to buy. I think a better tweet would be great on this good bottom end speaker. Love big drivers. Love servo even more.  :D

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #51 on: 23 Jan 2023, 09:02 pm »
Clayton,
What happens to the M3's in the field if their tweets fail/damaged? Is the Beyma a direct replacement? X-over mod's necessary?  OR, do you anticipate the peerless unit coming back on line in the near future?

Hi Catluck,

Clayton is back at work and my new Sapphire M3 replacement tweeters arrvied about an hour ago. I didn't ask him specifically how many he has, but he mentioned he has a few M100s left (I'm don't know if that means 2 or 10 or more). I didn't want to bother him too much with everything on his plate right now and getting caught up - but he has at least a few still available.


sockpit

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #52 on: 24 Jan 2023, 03:07 am »
If Clayton is out of the hospital and even back at work, that’s the best news I’ve heard in a long time. But I’d like to hear it from him or his son as well.

catluck

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #53 on: 24 Jan 2023, 03:26 pm »
Forky - Thanks for the info. Great to hear!  I'm still going to be conservative on volume because, as you note, could be 2 could be 10 M100's in reserve.  Truth is, I've never been a fan of loud except on rare occasions.  Typically, I find the rooms at most CES type events too loud to tolerate for long.  But, still, it's good news... Thanks for weighing in. 

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #54 on: 3 Feb 2023, 02:00 am »
So I'm sad  :( to report that I've moved on from the M3s but I now have a set of Volti Rivals sitting in my living room. :green: I've only listened to them for about 30 minutes so far so still letting it all sink in. They are used so they are broken in but less than 1 year old so they are almost brand new. From what very little time I have on them I would sum up a comparison with the M3s have a more audiophile sound and the Rivals are a more live music sound (but still have an audiophile quality /sense to them as well). I would have liked to have kept the M3s but my wife would have REALLY killed me if I did. She is still not happy about the small-ish Mirages out in the garage I've carted around for the past 30 years.

Thanks to everyone here for all the help throught the last 18 months or so. I'll still be dropping by from time-to-time I'm sure. I like the "small town" atmosphere here vs the bigger forums.

DaveWin88

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #55 on: 3 Feb 2023, 05:36 pm »
So I'm sad  :( to report that I've moved on from the M3s but I now have a set of Volti Rivals sitting in my living room. :green: I've only listened to them for about 30 minutes so far so still letting it all sink in. They are used so they are broken in but less than 1 year old so they are almost brand new. From what very little time I have on them I would sum up a comparison with the M3s have a more audiophile sound and the Rivals are a more live music sound (but still have an audiophile quality /sense to them as well). I would have liked to have kept the M3s but my wife would have REALLY killed me if I did. She is still not happy about the small-ish Mirages out in the garage I've carted around for the past 30 years.

Thanks to everyone here for all the help throught the last 18 months or so. I'll still be dropping by from time-to-time I'm sure. I like the "small town" atmosphere here vs the bigger forums.
I would love to hear your thought's on them. HiFi is a journey and we ultimately end up at the same place. Getting so much pleasure from music, a gift from God I might say. You've bought some great discussions and we appreciate that.
« Last Edit: 3 Feb 2023, 11:40 pm by DaveWin88 »

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #56 on: 5 Feb 2023, 04:00 pm »
Sockpit, per the new thread, I guess Clayton is isn't back yet  :( . I just got that impression after my communication with Clayton which was fast and efficient and he sent the tweeters out the next day. Sorry I assumed incorrectly but Spatial said they will be back in a few months.


I would love to hear your thought's on them. HiFi is a journey and we ultimately end up at the same place. Getting so much pleasure from music, a gift from God I might say. You've bought some great discussions and we appreciate that.

Thanks Dave. Sorry this is so long but here it goes. Grab a cup of coffee for when you are bored:

I've heard only about 9-11 songs so far so the Rivals are really my early thoughts on them. Also, although they sound great (more below), I just put them where I had the M3s (which were positioned as perfect as I could find and they disappeared and sounded fantastic) but spaced them out another 1' and gave them a lot more toe in which I keep reading they require.

Also please keep in mind that I'm still somewhat of a newbie (but not new) and don't have the listening skills many here do. When I read some reviews here or audiogon I'm reminded of that.

First, I will discuss my take of my 18-ish months with the Sapphire M3s: The Rivals sound so much different than the M3s it is striking (edit- some aspects are similar - but the overall sound is much different). It also made me appreciate the M3s for what they shined at which was an audiophile sound which to me is an intimate evening with my favorite band and I’m in the recoding studio with them. Also, the separation of instruments along with precise imaging and a very nice sound stage that went outside my speakers which disappeared. They shined with all non-hard rock recordings I have from medium to medium loud and even loud volumes (this seems to be subjective as to what loud is even though I’m aware of the OSCHA chart, etc.). The cons were – playing hard rock at higher volumes and even some non-hard rock records where the tweeter and higher mids were a bit too sharp (sometimes bright, sometimes even a bit piercing) and also would lose separation (into a blended mess). Maybe my room needed even more treatment but the Rivals didn’t have this issue with the treatment I have. My takeaway is that what makes the M3 such a good speaker for most of my music at reasonable listening volume is also what hurts is (IMO) on certain recordings and volume level. Hey, you can’t have it all! Which is to say the M3s are quite amazing up to a point with most good recordings in my room. Also, even though I had the M3s 5’ from the front wall, I didn’t sense much depth or even height of the sound stage. I will rack that up to the fact that they needed further tweaking positioning-wise although they sounded so good there otherwise I couldn’t get myself to move them a mm. Oh, and I would get listening fatigue from the M3s after a “while”. Before they were broken in that didn’t take long at all but were much better after break-in.

The Rivals still have an audiophile sense about them for sure and even though I don’t have them positioned to disappear yet they have excellent separation of instruments, imaging and sound stage. Not quite a good as the M3 YET because again, I just “dropped” them in my room where the M3s were + 1’ apart with more toe in. But – what I have found is that I prefer the Rivals at low-level listening (which I do!) as the bass and low end comes through better.

On one of my problem child records for the M3s above 83 db, the Rivals handled with ease with no brightness or sense of harshness. However (!) on this particular record it did lack some of the “air” that the M3s had at lower volume. I didn’t sense this as much with the other records I played though and with the Rivals I do have the option of changing the crossovers for more or less tweeter and/or midrange. I won’t touch those for a while though.

Where the Rival really shines is where the M3s put you in the recording studio, the Rivals put you in the front row at a live concert. I wasn’t expecting or prepared to what happened when I turned the volume up to 11:00-ish, I guess that is “5”? (the max I played the M3s were 5-6). OMG. I lol’d more than a few times. Again I haven’t listened to many songs yet and even fewer LOUD (only 3-4) but it really did sound very, very real – like I was at the show. The standout of those 4 songs was "Where do the Children Play" by Cat Stevens. The acoustic guitars sounded as good as the M3s and there was air around them in this track – which was LOUD but then when the drums came in later in the song I may has well had a drum set sitting in my living room! It was and is unbelievable. Not just loud but C R Y S T A L  C L E A R and still very detailed and just – very, very real sounding. I’m still gobsmacked by the experience and can’t wait to repeat it again soon which will likely be tomorrow afternoon hopefully. Also, 0.00 listening fatigue although I admit I haven’t listened more than 30 minutes straight yet.

The Rivals are just the right of too much for me. :)  I can’t wait to get them positioned properly so they disappear. I do miss the M3s more than I thought though. Maybe someday I will be able to buy some back and have both (but will likely need to be single to do that!).

forky

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #57 on: 5 Feb 2023, 04:17 pm »
Also a note that the msrp of the Rivals are exactly 3x that of the Sapphire M3 when it was new. So this is like comparing a GT3 to a base Cayman for you Porsche people out there. I bought my Rivals used which saved a bunch of $ plus they are also broken in.

Also, one disadvantage of the Rivals I forgot to mention above was pointed out in the Stereophile review of the Rivals which was (is), "One disadvantage of the Rivals' immaculate transparency was their tendency to emphasize every pop, tick and surface-noise goblin on any less-than-perfect" LPs. Records whose well-played surfaces had barely troubled me before now bit my ears like sonic vampires."

I had forgotten about this quote when I was listening to my mofi Brother in Arms but it thought of it not long after my listening session ended. It certainly is true although I think it has more to do with the volume levels themselves - will keep a better "ear" on this.

RonN5

Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #58 on: 5 Feb 2023, 05:54 pm »
Having done a fair amount of listening to the Rivals each of three years at the Florida Audio Expo and having owned the M3 Sapphires for a year, I can appreciate a lot of what you are saying.  The Rivals definitely can give you the "you are there live" explosiveness and immediacy without the horn harshness that you so often read about.

The M3s, like many good speakers, are sensitive to the room, the placement and the electronics...get them right and what I've found them to do right is just about everything...since I've never had the Rivals in my room, I can't compare the immediacy but the Sapphires are pretty darn good in that area as well....full disclosure though....I'm an 85 db max peaks listener.

One thing that may help the Rivals sense of air/openness/dimensionality is adding a supertweeter...and since these are easily returned...30 day trial with free shipping both ways....one of these might just be the answer

https://www.aperionaudio.com/collections/super-tweeter-speaker

Overall, you don't see too many Spatial Audio or Volti speakers show up on the preowned market...which I thinks speaks to how much their owners enjoy their sound.

Let's hope that Clayton is back in the next couple months and coming out with his next brilliant design!

lazbisme

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Re: Major Product Announcement - M4 Ultra
« Reply #59 on: 5 Feb 2023, 07:13 pm »
sounds to me like the Rivals sound very much like the newer generation Klipsch Heritage line! Forte IV comes to mind. But I love my X3s!!! Turned up louder than I listen my brother in law, who is dyed in the wool Klipsch fan, says they approach the Klipsch abilities.
just sayin