[forky]

Hello All,

I'm still having issues with heavy guitar / hard rock as well as some other recordings such as Janice Joplin's 1-step which admittedly has some reviews on discogs that complain about brightness - some just as many don't. System is fine with "regular" rock like Pink Floyd, FMac, Beatles, etc. as well as jazz and what little classical I listen to. it is even fine with Rage's (RATM) debut album (which is one of my best sounding records) since it was recorded extremely well and is more than not still a "cleaner" sound than say, Smashing Pumpkins, Dirt (AIC), most TOOL (Undertow is actually great but Aenmia is rough). The "cleaner" acoustic tracks on AIC's self titled album (3 legged dog which is also an amazing sounding record) sound great but when the hard electric guitars come in with any distortion - is very harsh and separation goes out the door. Everything collides in the upper mids and low treble (where the crossover is for the M3 tweeter?).

My system:
Sapphire M3s with about 100 hours above 70 db (probably 200 hours at lower volume) but the tweeters only have around 55 hours above 70 db (probably over 120 at lower db) as I had a tweeter issue in early Dec. Are the issues I mentioned above sound like more speaker breakin will help? I have read a few complaints on Audiogon about M3s being too bright but who knows the back story (amp, hours, room acoustics, cables)

Int amp is a Primaluna Evo 300 with about 200-ish hours. Kt-150s probably have around 175 hours and the Radiotechniques in the front preamp position probaly have around 150 hours. Mazdas on the sides around 175 hours. I have also read that Primaluna can be bright  (?).

Cables are now (about 75 hours) almost all LessLoss (copper) except a DL Labs silver power cord to the TT and speaker wires are Analyis Plus, Oval 9 black mesh (thank you Mr. Big) with about 200 hours.

TT is VPI prime Signature with Hana red cart (with about 125 hours).

Phonostage is a Modwright 9.0x and I changed one set of the fuses to Amperex (but really couldn't tell the difference).

Room is carpet over a concrete floor (basement) with a rug on top of that in the 7' in front of the speakers. Ceiling is a cheap drop celing w/ that cardboard like panels and a few fluorescent lights. Nothing on the walls except curtains in front 1 window (which is behind 1 speaker but again w/ curtain) and glass door. Only drywall is behind the right speaker but I put the (semi large) dog bed directly behind it which did nothing.

Speakers are 30" from the front wall (I lost too much bass at 36" but still playing with this). Rear wall is about 17' back and side walls are difficult to describe since the room is an offset T.

Initial thoughts?  I know the speaker need to break in more but they have some time on them. I'm wondering more about the amp than anything but called Upscale and they said to look elsewhere (of course). One guy on Audiogon upgraded his caps which said really helped the amp. I can put some $ into acoustics but we are moving next year so don't want to put a bunch of $ into a room that is changing next year. Can do some though.

Thanks

[abomwell]

Did you experiment by toeing the speaker in less? The more off axis you listen the more the treble should droop. Also if you have access to EQ via Roon or JRiver, for example, try a shelf filter and cut the tweeters by a couple dB.

Good luck!

Al

[forky]

yes, less toe in did help slightly. I don't have streamer....

thanks.

[abomwell]

You could try the Schiit Loki MINI+ . It's cheap and might be worth a try. You could use it only on those recordings that need it and bypass it on the rest.

Al

[RonN5]

As you know, time will help.  But you have to wonder if the Mazdas and the Radiotechniques...both of which have a reputation for having a really good and really clear presentation might just be too much when paired with the M3s which are also really clear...so you might consider some tube rolling for one of the pairs...just to start with.

Also, how loud is your listening as room reflections could also be contributing.

[forky]

As you know, time will help.  But you have to wonder if the Mazdas and the Radiotechniques...both of which have a reputation for having a really good and really clear presentation might just be too much when paired with the M3s which are also really clear...so you might consider some tube rolling for one of the pairs...just to start with.

Also, how loud is your listening as room reflections could also be contributing.

Excellent, thanks. Was wondering about this also. The Mazdas were too bright which is why I moved them to the sides and a set of NOS Mullards were too bright also - but the Radios did help quite a bit but maybe there is more to go. Then the question is can I keep the crispness on the other 90% of my music to dull the extra 10% too bright? Hmm. Only one way to find out. I'll contact Brent Jesse again and get his thoughts.

Agree about time. I need to do the reverse polarity thing with the speakers facing each other soon as normal breakin (above 70-75 db) will take a while.

////////////////

Thanks for the Loki suggestion - I may do that and have thought about it.

[RonN5]

The low ceilings don't help because of the earlier reflections as compared with a 10' ceiling...but...

One more thing I'd suggest based on my experience with the M3 presentation....you can also change the degree of tilt/rake...it could be beneficial to tilt them back slightly further...so either using the longer spikes (if you ae using the spikes at all) or just putting some blocks (for now) under the front and not the rear.

so, to summarize, you can change the toe in toe out and you can change the tilt both of which will adjust the "brightness"

[forky]

The low ceilings don't help because of the earlier reflections as compared with a 10' ceiling...but...

One more thing I'd suggest based on my experience with the M3 presentation....you can also change the degree of tilt/rake...it could be beneficial to tilt them back slightly further...so either using the longer spikes (if you ae using the spikes at all) or just putting some blocks (for now) under the front and not the rear.

so, to summarize, you can change the toe in toe out and you can change the tilt both of which will adjust the "brightness"

That is interesting. I'll try tiling back more. When I installed the GAIA IIs I lost some of the tilt I had prior - they still had this issue before that but maybe this will help at least some. Thanks.

[Daryl Zero]

I don't know how KT150s sound but the EL34 is definitely much more mellow on the treble side at least with my X5s. The KT77s I tried were difficult to listen to due to the brightness.

[forky]

Good idea. I'll try my PL E34s to see. From what I read the 150s are supposed to give more highs and lows with slightly less mids...but mostly more bass.

I just ordered some 1" hockey pucks to put under the front feet for 1" more of tilt. thanks all.

I do think this will improve with more time but I don't think more breakin will get this tamed as much as desired. I'm excited to try these suggested changes but something tells me it is the PL int. amp....maybe not.

[Elizabeth]

The problem is not the room or the electronics themselves. it is poor AC power.
In my experience treble itself if clean and clear is really not a problem.it is a problem when it is filled with artifacts not music.
The best way to get rid of garbage in the highs is some good AC power filtering. Some try to disguise it with tubes... why disguise it? Anyway that is my offering
Naturally because I am nobody this will be ignore. Who cares LOL

[forky]

Hello, I purchased an EMI reader a few mos ago to see what I was working with and had a reading of only 18 and then 21 through my battery backup. We  are on a small mountain and have our own transformer which I guess is why we have such clean power - although it is not consistent (brown outs in high wind) which is why I have the UPC. It is one of the better ones that has clean sine waves but this is also a good point and will try the amp plugged into the wall which I've never done before. Even if the EMI is clean maybe there is something else lurking in the power. Also, have a LessLoss Entropic power cable to the Int amp and the phonostage. so will give that a shot - easy one to try. thanks.

[dket]

forky, what you are hearing is the room in relationship to the listening volume.  Non of us have the perfect room and suffer from some sort of sonic issues.  You probably need more break in time, 400Hrs. for the Spatials.

Any and all equipment including cables will have a bearing on what you hear in your room.  I have a large bright room.  From my experience only trial and error of equipment and cables fixed my harshness issues while keeping all the musicality and details.

One important area is your AC power.  It needs to be clean and I mean squeaky clean.  Starting with your AC outlets and downstream from there.  You definitely need a power conditioner of some sorts and one without any built in transformers.
I personally use Akiko Corelli Conditioner in conjunction with Inakustik AC-3500P power station to great success.

The other thing that helped is the use of Shatki Hallographs.  These things are unbelievable what they can do.  They are not connected electrically but can act as like old fashion tone controls.  You can see a picture of my setup under the topic
"Dipole sub ?"   

[RonN5]

Good idea. I'll try my PL E34s to see. From what I read the 150s are supposed to give more highs and lows with slightly less mids...but mostly more bass.

I just ordered some 1" hockey pucks to put under the front feet for 1" more of tilt. thanks all.

I do think this will improve with more time but I don't think more breakin will get this tamed as much as desired. I'm excited to try these suggested changes but something tells me it is the PL int. amp....maybe not.

let us know how some of these things worked out...at least the tilt you can do immediately by just putting a couple magazines, paint sticks, whatever until the pucks show up....if the Gaia feet had them aimed a little more at you and a little less tilted back, I'm pretty sure that restoring the tilt is going to help.

[doggie]

Please read through the other threads here so that you can see that this is not an isolated problem of yours.

All of the things folks have mentioned will help but I would not spend too much time or money on tweaks until you have a LOT more hours of music played.  Everyone struggles with this until a lot of time has passed and then they become very happy.

I have the X5's and at 6 months I am just seeing how truly remarkable they are. At 200 hours they will just be starting to show promise.

[Wayner]

I would try elevating your tweeters so that they are about 6" higher. I have elevated many of mine so that the HF can't beam its usual beam straight at my head, and the sound of the system has benefited. Try it, you may like it.

[forky]

Thanks all. I know I have to wait more - wife can't tolerate loud music and since we are moving next year I'm not going to spend much on sound insulation (but will at the next home). I have some large /thick moving blankets arriving on Weds to cover them and may even put them in our detached garage when I can (mice out there so as soon as the music stops I would have to carry them a good bit back to their usual home in the basement). I also need to find those instructions about reversing the polarity.

That said, I just put on Siamese Dream which is one of my "worst offenders" and tilting the speakers back did help a little bit more but not a lot (so little it might be in my head - which is fine!). I then unplugged from the battery backup and into the wall socket directly for the int amp and phonostage and although it didn't help the brightness it did sound noticeably better! Like! I guess I'll just unplug them when not using them. Still had the TT plugged into the wall so still need to try that unplugged.

With both Cherub Rock and Quiet, they sounded fine until 83 db - which I realize isn't quiet but would like to get 85-90 and still sounding good - but once just slightly over 83 db the separation ended and it turns into a distorted and blended together (all separation lost) mess. So this probably does mean it is more breakin time or room acoustics maybe- I guess since they sound fine at lower volume. I can listen to "clean" records to 90 db with peaks of 95 fine although most of my preferred listening (when spouse is not home - was able to just now since a short time) is 85-90 db but peaks above that.

Will try raising 6" and the EL 34s in the next few days.

Had never heard of the Shatki Hallographs. Interesting! I may start with their stone first and see how that does. Waiting to hear back from Brent also.

Does the fact that it sounds great at lower volume -even moderately loud then distorts at a certain point mean anything? And the certain point - 83 db is still much lower than what I can play other records at.

I've typed this before but I know I need to be more patient. I should have let Clayton run these in for me before they were delivered. Hopefully the moving blankets will help with the wife "issue" and I can turn them up to 80-85 db for hours at a time w/ those.

thanks all!

[abomwell]

It's very possible your amplifier is clipping and you don't realize it.

[forky]

Thanks. Possible but I can move the volume and db level much higher with other types of music. This issue is only an issue with hard rock and maybe just a very few others like Pearl 1-step. The issue is with heavy electric guitars esp when with vocals.

My system sounds insanely good with most all "regular" rock, electronic music and jazz. For example Supertramp COTC , Speakers Corner is jaw droopingly good and can go LOUD w/o issue. The issue is heavy guitar esp w/ vocals.

[abomwell]

Then I would still suggest you find an EQ solution for those bright recordings, like the Schiit Loki, as I suggested above. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. LOL