[abomwell]

This question has always puzzled me: You can be walking down the sidewalk of a noisy street and, through a slightly opened 2nd story window in an apartment building you're passing, hear someone playing a piano. You instantly know it's a real piano, not a recording of one. There is no doubt about that. Even with street noise you will always know. Why is that?  I've been to literally hundreds of music shows often with someone practicing a trumpet or flute in the next room of my hotel. Even through a cement wall I could still tell it's real, not a recording.  Any thoughts?

[Tyson]

For the same reason we can tell the difference between watching a movie vs looking out an open window.

[Early B.]

No mystery. Regardless of how much money you spend on an audio system, it will never sound like the real thing.   

[abomwell]

Years ago I went to an audio show in NYC. I spent the day listening to wonderful systems, some costing more than my home! The show ended at 6:00pm and as I was leaving, walking down the hallway of the hotel at the show, I heard some music coming from one of the rooms around the corner. It sounded better than anything I had heard all day so I turned around to find the room it was coming from and see what system was playing. I pushed open the door and there were four musicians warming up for the evening performance!

[Chewbacca]

I think something that really adds to the perception of real and not is when you're walking past that window you're only hearing the reverberations of that room - coming from a single source, then out the window. Where if you were listening to a recording outside the window, you're not only getting the reverberations of the original recording, which are totally smeared by not having proper time arrival, in addition to the reverberations of the room the speaker is playing in. Which is also coming from a stereo dual source of sound that will reflect things all over the place with different time arrivals if you're not listening in the main position... aka VERY out of the main listening position when hearing out of a window lol. Basically IMO a mono recording, recorded in an anechoic chamber with only a single speaker playing in that room would sound much more real when listening outside of a window But this is all theoretical.

OR

They just don't have something up to par with Spatial Speakers

[abomwell]

I think that's a very plausible explanation.

[Early B.]

Years ago I went to an audio show in NYC. I spent the day listening to wonderful systems, some costing more than my home! The show ended at 6:00pm and as I was leaving, walking down the hallway of the hotel at the show, I heard some music coming from one of the rooms around the corner. It sounded better than anything I had heard all day so I turned around to find the room it was coming from and see what system was playing. I pushed open the door and there were four musicians warming up for the evening performance!

I had a similar epiphany many years ago. I was listening to a band warming up and realized that my system sounded nothing like live music at all. I particularly recall the dynamics were on a completely different level -- the mere tap of a drum was like a freakin' shockwave. One major limitation nearly all of us have is room size. I think we could get closer to live music if our systems were in cavernous rooms and we had multiple, massive speakers echoing off the far walls and a 20 ft. ceiling. Conversely, imagine trying to shoehorn a 60-piece orchestra into a small jazz venue -- the room would confine the sound in an extraordinary way.   

[Tyson]

I had a similar epiphany many years ago. I was listening to a band warming up and realized that my system sounded nothing like live music at all. I particularly recall the dynamics were on a completely different level -- the mere tap of a drum was like a freakin' shockwave. One major limitation nearly all of us have is room size. I think we could get closer to live music if our systems were in cavernous rooms and we had multiple, massive speakers echoing off the far walls and a 20 ft. ceiling. Conversely, imagine trying to shoehorn a 60-piece orchestra into a small jazz venue -- the room would confine the sound in an extraordinary way.   

This is one reason I really love high efficiency speakers - they get closer to that 'jump factor' in live music. 

[Mr. Big]

It sounds real because it is life in the real air, what we hear recordings, changed over and over by the gear and speakers we use and the room. Built a system that gives you enjoyment and enjoys it because that is as good as it gets for you.

[Early B.]

It sounds real because it is life in the real air, what we hear recordings, changed over and over by the gear and speakers we use and the room. Built a system that gives you enjoyment and enjoys it because that is as good as it gets for you.

Yeah, audiophiles have very vivid imaginations. We spend crazy amounts of money on audio gear so we can become engulfed in a suspension of disbelief.   





Definition:  "Suspension of disbelief" is the intentional avoidance of critical thinking or logic in examining something unreal or impossible in order to believe it for the sake of enjoyment.

[Letitroll98]

There's no compression of dynamics in live, unamplified music, and very little compression in concert level PA systems.  Also there's no distortion in live, unamplified music.  Home speakers have very high distortion levels, even the best ones, and they all run up against compression at some level.  Then you have to deal with the recording, which has is own set of distortion and compression profiles.  Then you shove all that into a small room.  It's a wonder stereo sounds as close to real as it does.

[abomwell]

All very interesting to me. Thanks everyone for the comments! One contributing factor I've read has to do with power response. Room reflections of live music are full spectrum copies of the direct sound. However reflections from monopole speakers are not since they are omnidirectional in the bass and directional in the treble. Point source omni's, and dipoles are much closer in allowing room reflections to be full spectrum (FR) copies and, if so, will be perceptully ignored.

[Mag]

This question has always puzzled me: You can be walking down the sidewalk of a noisy street and, through a slightly opened 2nd story window in an apartment building you're passing, hear someone playing a piano. You instantly know it's a real piano, not a recording of one. There is no doubt about that. Even with street noise you will always know. Why is that?  I've been to literally hundreds of music shows often with someone practicing a trumpet or flute in the next room of my hotel. Even through a cement wall I could still tell it's real, not a recording.  Any thoughts?

Have had similar experience. I think it maybe due to multiple point sources, whereas with recorded music we're limited to two channel. Even with multi-channel recordings IMO unless it's been recorded multi-channel you are losing how are ears actually hear. Then addition to that are systems are typically limited to 2 speakers whereas the real thing is multiple point source.

Having said that though it is my belief after attending The Tea Party concert. Comparing their blu-ray concert recording to the real thing (audio memory) stereo can mimic the real thing if played loud enough on a good system. But unamplified music is a different animal, again going back to multiple point source.

[abomwell]

But that piano sound coming out of the opened widow is not multiple point source is it ?

[Mag]

But that piano sound coming out of the opened widow is not multiple point source is it ?

Yes it is. My experience driving courier & taxi. I was picking up a passenger from a high school. Heard the sound of school band coming from building and could tell immediately it was the real thing. And then another time heard a solo trumpet at Education building at the local university. So music is coming off an instrument in multiple points. A single microphone can't capture this and if it can then it is because we are limited in playback.

[abomwell]

Yes it is. My experience driving courier & taxi. I was picking up a passenger from a high school. Heard the sound of school band coming from building and could tell immediately it was the real thing. And then another time heard a solo trumpet at Education building at the local university. So music is coming off an instrument in multiple points. A single microphone can't capture this and if it can then it is because we are limited in playback.

Perhaps your point sources and my reflections are the same thing. And they are full spectrum frequency responses of the direct sound. I fear this is getting way too complicated 😄.

A number of years ago my wife and I toured Lincoln Center in NYC. Since the Met was performing an opera we sat outside the concert hall in the lobby and listened for a while. OMG, no words can describe the sheer power and weight of the low brass, even outside the hall with the doors closed!! I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. No audio system ever sounded like that to me.

[abomwell]

Basically IMO a mono recording, recorded in an anechoic chamber with only a single speaker playing in that room would sound much more real when listening outside of a window
[/quote]

Many years ago AR did a live demonstration
showing that their speakers could replicate the sound of a live string quartet and no one would be able to tell the difference between live vs. recorded. As I recall they recorded the quartet outdoors in the woods so there would be no room acoustics on the recording, similar to recording in an anechoic chamber. At the demonstration the speakers were located left and right of the quartet on stage. My understanding is that during the performance the musicians put down their bows, the music continued uninterrupted, and the audience gasped as they were fooled into thinking the sound had been from the musicians, not the speakers. Whether or not the musicians ever did play I don't remember. But the point is that the recorded sound did, in fact, sound like the real thing.

[Daryl Zero]

Basically IMO a mono recording, recorded in an anechoic chamber with only a single speaker playing in that room would sound much more real when listening outside of a window


Many years ago AR did a live demonstration
showing that their speakers could replicate the sound of a live string quartet and no one would be able to tell the difference between live vs. recorded. As I recall they recorded the quartet outdoors in the woods so there would be no room acoustics on the recording, similar to recording in an anechoic chamber. At the demonstration the speakers were located left and right of the quartet on stage. My understanding is that during the performance the musicians put down their bows, the music continued uninterrupted, and the audience gasped as they were fooled into thinking the sound had been from the musicians, not the speakers. Whether or not the musicians ever did play I don't remember. But the point is that the recorded sound did, in fact, sound like the real thing.

Well it might be that people were fooled by their eyes on that one.

I'm kind of thinking it's more like the movie example. There is a partial two-dimensionality to the playback of music even with good imaging etc. When you hear live music (not amplified) there is a spaciousness to it and perhaps lots of different reverberations. Even with amplified music, the drums usually can be heard separately and sometimes the bass or guitar if they are playing with stacks loudly rather than mainly being amplified by the PA. There is also compression with playback and the almost too perfect mix.

[abomwell]

Well it might be that people were fooled by their eyes on that one.

I'm kind of thinking it's more like the movie example. There is a partial two-dimensionality to the playback of music even with good imaging etc. When you hear live music (not amplified) there is a spaciousness to it and perhaps lots of different reverberations.

Well there are certainly lots of reverberations and diffused sound at venues of live performances. Most of what we hear is diffuse sound in a concert hall. But, going back to the original post, we're talking about sound coming from a partially opened window that one would hear on a noisy street below. And it's that sound we all can identify as real, not recorded.

Actually I've had that experience dozens of times. Back in high school, many moons ago, I took trombone lessons for a couple years at Juilliard which , back then, was at a different location than now. Walking from the subway to the school I'd pass the practice rooms located on the upper floors. During warm weather students opened the practice room windows and I could hear them from the street as I was walking to the entrance. From the street below it was a cacophony of sounds of singing, and every orchestral instrument coming from various open windows. It was actually pretty cool and I looked forward to hearing that every week. There was some pretty amazing talent there!

[Tyson]

Well it might be that people were fooled by their eyes on that one.

I'm kind of thinking it's more like the movie example. There is a partial two-dimensionality to the playback of music even with good imaging etc. When you hear live music (not amplified) there is a spaciousness to it and perhaps lots of different reverberations. Even with amplified music, the drums usually can be heard separately and sometimes the bass or guitar if they are playing with stacks loudly rather than mainly being amplified by the PA. There is also compression with playback and the almost too perfect mix.

I attend a lot of unaamped live music and the very best recordings on the very best systems can get fairly close, but not 100% convincing.  And if you move out of the sweet spot a lot of the imaging and subtle queues collapse. 

I've learned to be more philosophical about the fact that hifi will probably never reproduce live music perfectly.  In fact, there's a very cool silver lining with hifi.  And that's that it can produce music and performances that are impossible live.  If you look at modern pop music (or electonica, or any other music that's 'produced' in a studio), this is music that's completely constructed (artificial), but still very interesting and cool.

I look at it the same way I look at movies.  A great projector can not convince me that I am looking out a window in a photo-realistic way.  But it CAN show me things that I will never, ever see outside my window.  Namely, futuristic space stations.  Zooms.  Cuts.  Astonishing special effects.  Cinema doesn't look like real life, but that's OK, it has it's own 'language' so to speak, and can do things with that language that I would never get by walking outside my front door.

Hifi is the same way - it can show you wondrous things, some of which will never exist outside a recording studio creation.  That's not something to lament, it's something to celebrate.