AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Source Component Reviews => Topic started by: JLM on 27 Dec 2018, 12:55 pm
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Background: been at this roughly 50 years, a "certified" computer dummy, have a very nice dedicated room with mid-field setup and recently have done a system upgrade to JBL 708P active reference studio monitors ($4000/pair MSRP, controlled directivity tweeter, 8" ported woofer) and PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DSJ) DAC/preamp/streamer. Still using a MacBook Air/iTunes/10ft USB cable setup for my source. Although very satisfied with the sound, felt like the MacBook/etc. was the weak link based on all the reviews that inferred that servers are at least a couple of sonic steps up from a PC.
After several emails back and forth I purchased an i5 sonic transport (STi5) with 1 TB SSD and Roon trial from Andrew on their Black Friday sale ($917 shipped plus future cost of Roon). Received it the following Wednesday but needed help to get it to work. Andrew led me by the hand including remote takeover of my MacBook, transferring my ALAC ripped CDs on iTunes and Tidal favorites via my wireless network (which included a HomePage/ethernet connection to the SGC). (Somehow my 153 GB library only took up 6% of the SSD.) Unfortunately never learned how to transfer additional library files over.
Used my MacBook to control the STi5/Roon and it worked well (able to disconnect my 10ft USB cable). But after 2 weeks it didn't sound any different than the MacBook setup. Then Andrew told me that was to be expected and to get better sound would require spending $1399 more (at holiday pricing) for ultraRendu, converter box to allow I2S input to the DSJ, and 2 power supplies. Felt like a bait and switch scheme as I'd clearly told him I was after improved sound quality, low cost, and simple ownership. 5 boxes, 6 cables, and $2800 total cost was definitely not what I'd signed up for, so I returned the STi5. Andrew processed the refund promptly.
I'll keep an eye open for my ideal solution, but have lost much of my interest in music servers, and frankly enjoy having a simpler, cheaper source and the long USB cable doesn't bother me.
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Wow sorry to hear about your disappointment with your SGC i5 purchase. My experience was just the opposite which is not uncommon in audiophile land. I purchased the sonicTransporter i7 and use a NAS drive to hold my music files and use a microRendu. This has been one of the biggest audio improvements I have made. This replaced a Aurender N10.
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Gee, wish you'd posted a review of the STi7. What power supply did you use with the microRendu?
Perhaps Andrew aimed too high for my budget by suggesting the bundled ultraRendu, converter, and 2 power supplies.
As a "speaker guy" I'm a believer that source only provides a small percentage of the overall system sound quality.
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Following..
Needing to upgrade from a simple Apple TV4 .. But don't want to waste money, and or be FRUSTRATED with my purchase..
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I don't see any fouls here. Andrew is in the business to sell his computers. Its a good product but is kind of a "premium" solution. If you were emphasizing better sound quality, then Small Green Computer is a proven and solid choice... but it comes at a price.
If you want to value engineer this, then, you kind of went about this backwards. You should buy the renderer/microrendu (ultra or otherwise) and then worry about the "premium" storage/ computer. If you don't have an unlimited budget , then your going to have to make some decisions besides the highest end stuff... its kind of like buying a $1000 power cord and then complaining about the $8000 preamp that you have to buy to make the power cord work right.
Since you have a PS Audio direct stream... does that have dsd and corresponding I2S connections??... I think. If that's the case and you want to stream DSD... that will dictate what kind of hardware you need. To get ROON working on that correctly, your going to need a pretty strong compooder.
I could go into what I do (which is valued engineered and sounding marvelous... and waay above the Mac Mini/Itunes I used to roll with) but it so different from powered speaker and the PS Audio sound, I'm not sure its relevant. I can tell you that streaming w microrendu and roon/tidal is pure joy and the most fun I've had listening to music.
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The only reason I went with the i7 is to have the ability to upsample HQplayer but have yet to get the settings right. I am using the Ifi power supply, I posted elsewhere it is as good or better than most of the super high price LPS you see for sell. Since you already have Roon you could try a Allo or SoTM bridge for less than a SGC microRendu. I am also using a Curious Cable regen link USB cable so it is super short. I am perfectly satisfied with the results I have achieved.
Gee, wish you'd posted a review of the STi7. What power supply did you use with the microRendu?
Perhaps Andrew aimed too high for my budget by suggesting the bundled ultraRendu, converter, and 2 power supplies.
As a "speaker guy" I'm a believer that source only provides a small percentage of the overall system sound quality.
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I don't see any fouls here. Andrew is in the business to sell his computers. Its a good product but is kind of a "premium" solution. If you were emphasizing better sound quality, then Small Green Computer is a proven and solid choice... but it comes at a price.
If you want to value engineer this, then, you kind of went about this backwards. You should buy the renderer/microrendu (ultra or otherwise) and then worry about the "premium" storage/ computer. If you don't have an unlimited budget , then your going to have to make some decisions besides the highest end stuff... its kind of like buying a $1000 power cord and then complaining about the $8000 preamp that you have to buy to make the power cord work right.
Since you have a PS Audio direct stream... does that have dsd and corresponding I2S connections??... I think. If that's the case and you want to stream DSD... that will dictate what kind of hardware you need. To get ROON working on that correctly, your going to need a pretty strong compooder.
I could go into what I do (which is valued engineered and sounding marvelous... and waay above the Mac Mini/Itunes I used to roll with) but it so different from powered speaker and the PS Audio sound, I'm not sure its relevant. I can tell you that streaming w microrendu and roon/tidal is pure joy and the most fun I've had listening to music.
Lokie, I'd be interested in reading more about your solution.
I think there are many here who are looking for the "next step" with their own computer based music system and other's analysis and experience is always helpful.
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I’m currently using a 2012 Mac mini i7 quad core with an ultraRendu and would love to move the Mac to a more dedicated computer use and go with the SGC i7 as I upsample with roon. The price increase with going with SGC is what keeps holding me back, for $2k I would hope it would be a great improvement over the mini.
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Personally I think breaking the USB link from PC to DAC makes the biggest difference. You already have that with the ultraRendu. Maybe borrow a fellow audiophiles server to see if there is an improvement.
I’m currently using a 2012 Mac mini i7 quad core with an ultraRendu and would love to move the Mac to a more dedicated computer use and go with the SGC i7 as I upsample with roon. The price increase with going with SGC is what keeps holding me back, for $2k I would hope it would be a great improvement over the mini.
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Ok I know I'm BADH :deadhorse: but being a bit of a DIY computer guy I must offer up my same old solution. Get a low cost PC like one of these:
https://www.newegg.com/Chromebox-Desktops-Mini-PCs/PromotionStore/ID-2047763
Get a copy of Daphile for FREE!!!
https://www.daphile.com/
Don't get to caught up in audio-foolery about power supplies, vibration and such.
Next get something like the ISOREGEN from Uptone:
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen
Play around with Daphile a bit and you'll find a lot more features then are listed on the web site.
Ric :thumb:
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Ok I know I'm BADH :deadhorse: but being a bit of a DIY computer guy I must offer up my same old solution. Get a low cost PC like one of these:
https://www.newegg.com/Chromebox-Desktops-Mini-PCs/PromotionStore/ID-2047763 (https://www.newegg.com/Chromebox-Desktops-Mini-PCs/PromotionStore/ID-2047763)
Get a copy of Daphile for FREE!!!
https://www.daphile.com/ (https://www.daphile.com/)
Don't get to caught up in audio-foolery about power supplies, vibration and such.
Next get something like the ISOREGEN from Uptone:
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen (https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen)
Play around with Daphile a bit and you'll find a lot more features then are listed on the web site.
Ric :thumb:
The problem w your suggestion is.... the OP has to tell us if he plans to stream hi rez. If he is into hi rez, then by the time you price out I7's and ram and etc that will allow DSD streaming, then you are at the same price as a ROON ROCK or even getting close to Green Computers.
The power supply is important but you dont have to go w the most expensive.
My system is in my profile here. I don't do hi rez and have optimized my digital playback accordingly. Hi Rez dictates a whole different set of decisions... from computer processing power, to the chip in the DAC, to the SPDIF/USB converter and on and on. It really is two different animals and whole nudder subject.
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https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/
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The problem w your suggestion is.... the OP has to tell us if he plans to stream hi rez. If he is into hi rez, then by the time you price out I7's and ram and etc that will allow DSD streaming, then you are at the same price as a ROON ROCK or even getting close to Green Computers.
Um, you don't need an i7 to stream hi-rez (or DSD).
:)
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The problem w your suggestion is.... the OP has to tell us if he plans to stream hi rez. If he is into hi rez, then by the time you price out I7's and ram and etc that will allow DSD streaming, then you are at the same price as a ROON ROCK or even getting close to Green Computers.
The power supply is important but you dont have to go w the most expensive.
My system is in my profile here. I don't do hi rez and have optimized my digital playback accordingly. Hi Rez dictates a whole different set of decisions... from computer processing power, to the chip in the DAC, to the SPDIF/USB converter and on and on. It really is two different animals and whole nudder subject.
I'm running a AMD A4-6300 Richland Dual-Core 3.7 GHz with 8 gig of RAM using 4 GIG as a playback buffer with no performance problems...although I plan to add 8 more gig....just for headroom. BTW I stream DSD128 as well.
Meant to post this link originally.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100019096%20600337533%20600373488%20600337532%20600337530%204814%20600014654&IsNodeId=1
Ric
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JLM, is there a reason you haven't simply networked the PSA Jr with the installed bridge II?
You would place your music on a small dedicated NAS, install the Roon software on your laptop (or any computer on the network) , and connect the dac via ethernet. Done.
You'd be ready to pull music from the NAS, stream Tidal, whatever. The network connectivity is the primary advantage of the PSA dacs.
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Unfortunately, achieving excellent, almost analog quality sound using a computer in neither cheap or easy.
I started with a cheap Intel Pine Trail Mini-ITX motherboard with an Atom D525 (1.8GHz, dual core) processor, a Samsung solid state drive and 4GB ram.
Install Windows 10 and JRiver and it will play even hi-rez files flawlessly (never tried DSD, don't have any). The sound is good, probably comparable to a Mac mini or a Small Green Computer.
Now the hard, complicated part is achieving excellent sound.
First you need a dedicated audiophile USB card with a separate linear regulated power supply like the Paul Pang USB (http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2013/07/audio-grade-usb-30-pcie-card.html);
Second the solid state drive also needs it's own linear regulated power supply, another power supply for the MB is optional.
Third is a quality USB cable like the JMaxwell (http://www.jmaxwellusb.com/)
All my music is stored on another computer and the two computers are connected by ethernet. I don't stream off the internet, I like to keep my monthly payments as low as possible.
The sound quality is sublime, great dynamics, tight bass, clean and clear mids and highs through my Salk HT2-TL speakers. The numerous separate power supplies keep electronic noise to a minimum and lets the music breath.
Another discovery is the popular USB filters like the Audioquest Jitterbug and the Uptone Audio USB Regen are no longer needed and actually make the sound worse, which my buddies in our Tucson Audiophile group found out after they upgraded their computers too.
I realize this is a lot, lot more involved than JLM wants to get into but anything less is just a sideways move. Keeping what you have and making it work is probably the best option.
Or, if you are itching for a change and know nothing about computers, want ease of use along with plug-and play and great support call Jim Salk and talk about this Streamplayers (http://www.salksound.com/home.php).
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Um, you don't need an i7 to stream hi-rez (or DSD).
:)
Right. I see now the OP has a 153 GB in music.
My situation is much different and I shouldn't impose my problems on someone else. Let me just say, with a large catalog and running ROON, and streaming DSD, I would use an I7.
I'm running a AMD A4-6300 Richland Dual-Core 3.7 GHz with 8 gig of RAM using 4 GIG as a playback buffer with no performance problems...although I plan to add 8 more gig....just for headroom. BTW I stream DSD128 as well.
Meant to post this link originally.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100019096%20600337533%20600373488%20600337532%20600337530%204814%20600014654&IsNodeId=1 (https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100019096%20600337533%20600373488%20600337532%20600337530%204814%20600014654&IsNodeId=1)
Ric
OK whats the summary here? That linear power supplies aren't necessary? Thats great. Save more money. That would be the first time I've seen anyone with that conclusion. I always thought the expensive ones were nonsense but I thought the cheaper ones were probably a good thing and at least keep noise out of the lines for the other components. .
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While it's true that you don't need the latest high speed i7 processor with additional memory to be able to stream DSD, to run HQPlayer converting all files to high rate DSD with the best filters in real time is a very processor intensive task which does require such resources. So if you have a DAC which is optimized for best performance with high rate DSD and you wish to run HQPlayer to maximize its performance your processor requirements are at a completely different level than if you just want to stream PCM and DSD in their native resolutions.
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JLM, is there a reason you haven't simply networked the PSA Jr with the installed bridge II?
You would place your music on a small dedicated NAS, install the Roon software on your laptop (or any computer on the network) , and connect the dac via ethernet. Done.
You'd be ready to pull music from the NAS, stream Tidal, whatever. The network connectivity is the primary advantage of the PSA dacs.
Answer: ignorance, wanting a super simple system, and being a 'certified' computer dummy (so I have no idea how to setup/maintain a NAS). I thought the ethernet input/streaming function built into the DSJ would provide SQ improvements with a 'plain' server. Now I'm confused at all the options and reviews out there.
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Answer: ignorance, wanting a super simple system, and being a 'certified' computer dummy (so I have no idea how to setup/maintain a NAS). I thought the ethernet input/streaming function built into the DSJ would provide SQ improvements with a 'plain' server. Now I'm confused at all the options and reviews out there.
sonicTransporter is a network storage device with server software for local playback and streaming. The great thing about it is that Andrew manages the software for you and when updated come along you just press a button to get them. You still need to move your content into the unit via the network. Even though it plays music locally its not optimized for sound quality. Andrew recommended streaming to a Rendu because its optimized for local playback via it's USB output. If the network storage device concept is not good for you to manage then stick with a standard computer and player software running on it. Your DAC will accept USB input or streaming via it's network input both from Roon or JRiver. However, its computer audio after all so you need to learn the basics.
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Just a side note about various comments about DSD. The entire DSJ internal architecture is already DSD, so regardless of what is fed to the inputs, DSJ converts the signal to DSD for internal processing with a "standard" DSD low pass filter at the output.
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Answer: ignorance, wanting a super simple system, and being a 'certified' computer dummy (so I have no idea how to setup/maintain a NAS). I thought the ethernet input/streaming function built into the DSJ would provide SQ improvements with a 'plain' server. Now I'm confused at all the options and reviews out there.
Understood. I just reread your original post. Since you heard no difference between the server vs the Mac over usb, it's probably not going to be worth spending more money on high end computer audio. The gains made for the things you listen for will probably be minimal. It also sounds like you only have a wireless network point in the audio room? You would need a hard wired connection for the DS Jr to attach to the network.
The original way you started, Macbook to DS Jr via usb may continue to be your best option for ripped files, and perhaps something like the Node could be used for streaming content.
It's been my experience that many of the audible differences and "improvements" in SQ offered by upgrading servers, renderers, and network audio are much the same as say those obtained by upgrading to NOS tubes, vibration control, or careful selection of cables. That is, more open vivid imaging, blacker background, and more tactile engagement. I've read enough of your posts here to know you aren't a big fan of that part of the hobby. No flames. You're what I'd call a meat and potato Audiophile. Cooked properly, it's a great experience, and there's no Salmon foam. :D
Happy to discuss it further via pm if you're interested. This is a review thread after all.
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I'll keep an eye open for my ideal solution
Have you seen the Nativ Vita Music Server? It looks like it is perfect for what you want to do but...
Wait a while, early user reviews are mixed even though the reviews on the Nativ Vita site are glowing.
https://www.nativsound.com/en/music-server (https://www.nativsound.com/en/music-server)
1 box with touch screen, hi-rez, streaming, wi-fi connections, remote apps, voice control (Nativ: play Beyoncé).
(https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nativ/1.jpg)
Plenty of connection options too
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188404&size=huge)
6moons has a preliminary review:
https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nativ/1.html (https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nativ/1.html)
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Just a side note about various comments about DSD. The entire DSJ internal architecture is already DSD, so regardless of what is fed to the inputs, DSJ converts the signal to DSD for internal processing with a "standard" DSD low pass filter at the output.
Great point Tom, yes the DS series of dacs converts it all to DSDX20 I think. Of note, I just landed in Orlando for a 4 day R&R with family. Sorry! Off topic!
Best,
Anand.