Comparing Maraschino to nCore

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AmpDesigner333

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #40 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:04 am »
Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...
Maybe we can put a list of "generally considered musical" amps to compare against.

The Maraschino does BOTH transparency and musicality....

Interesting post!  Thanks.


OzarkTom

Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #41 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:44 am »
Maybe we can put a list of "generally considered musical" amps to compare against.

The Maraschino does BOTH transparency and musicality....

Interesting post!  Thanks.

Transparency even at the lowest volume settings. :thumb:

jseipp

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #42 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:48 am »
As someone who has had the opportunity to play music with a wide variety of groups -- also on the trumpet :) -- as well as alone with a guitar or my girlfriend's banjo, I would have to say that the Maraschinos just sound the most live to me of any amplifier I have run -- true to the sound of instruments and preserving all the music that is to be found within a recording.  For me, that IS both transparent and musical. 

The Maraschinos take what is fed to them and pump out the most convincing and musical sound I've heard yet in my room, the same room in which I've spent countless hours playing instruments.  I love the metaphor of the iron fist in a velvet glove; I think it strikes right at the heart of what I hear as the leading-edge impact of real instruments, followed and filled out by full and true tonality.  That this can be generated with a perfect sense of ease with pinpoint accuracy in three-dimensional space is spooky.  That this quality comes at a price I can afford is something I never expected.  That I recommend a listen to anyone seeking the qualities I have identified at at any price is an understatement.

The measurements suggest that the Maraschinos will work in a very wide range of systems -- I can tell you that they definitely work in mine!

DS-21

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #43 on: 21 Apr 2015, 04:12 am »
Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...

Usually a simple matter of nonflat frequency response.

Speaking of which, for all of the bold subjective boasts by this particular amp's designer, I don't recall seeing the key phrase that separates high fidelity Class D amps from low-fi (sorry, "musical") tube and class D amps: load-invariant frequency response.

Is the designer interested in posting measurements of her/his amps into various loads (and better yet a simulated speaker load like Stereophile uses), or would s/he prefer a fog of vacuous subjective bombast?

imassarano

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #44 on: 21 Apr 2015, 07:48 am »
As someone who has had the opportunity to play music with a wide variety of groups -- also on the trumpet :) -- as well as alone with a guitar or my girlfriend's banjo, I would have to say that the Maraschinos just sound the most live to me of any amplifier I have run -- true to the sound of instruments and preserving all the music that is to be found within a recording.  For me, that IS both transparent and musical. 

The Maraschinos take what is fed to them and pump out the most convincing and musical sound I've heard yet in my room, the same room in which I've spent countless hours playing instruments.  I love the metaphor of the iron fist in a velvet glove; I think it strikes right at the heart of what I hear as the leading-edge impact of real instruments, followed and filled out by full and true tonality.  That this can be generated with a perfect sense of ease with pinpoint accuracy in three-dimensional space is spooky.  That this quality comes at a price I can afford is something I never expected.  That I recommend a listen to anyone seeking the qualities I have identified at at any price is an understatement.

The measurements suggest that the Maraschinos will work in a very wide range of systems -- I can tell you that they definitely work in mine!

I agree, and wish to add that the Maraschinos' accurate timbrel portrayal giving the presentation its sense of reality that provides both the transparency and musicality.

Yitzhak

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #45 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:19 pm »
Usually a simple matter of nonflat frequency response.

Speaking of which, for all of the bold subjective boasts by this particular amp's designer, I don't recall seeing the key phrase that separates high fidelity Class D amps from low-fi (sorry, "musical") tube and class D amps: load-invariant frequency response.

Is the designer interested in posting measurements of her/his amps into various loads (and better yet a simulated speaker load like Stereophile uses), or would s/he prefer a fog of vacuous subjective bombast?
Full specs are on CherryAmp.com (Desktop Maraschino).

Check out this thread too (plots, measurements):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.0

I will explain what we mean by "tweaking for sonics AFTER obtaining excellent bench measurements" there soon, so stay tuned.

"a simple matter of nonflat frequency response" is an over-simplification.  You can have perfectly flat response and different sound.  Time domain behavior into (or out of) the speaker can be quite different between two amplifiers with the same frequency response, into a simple or complex load.  For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?

As time goes on, I'm getting better and better at predicting the sonic effect of various circuit/component changes.  This is a matter of experience.

I'm glad you brought up simulated speaker loads.  We have used them, but nothing beats listening.  A funny aside....  MANY years ago, my business partner at the time was trying to get a consulting gig with Bose.  He was much more a money guy than an audio guy.  I had contact with Bose twice before, going back to the early 90s, so I knew what they were all about (profit).  Anyway, their one amplifier guy, who was trying to learn about Class-D, was obsessed with simulated speaker loads.  I remember a conference call when we asked him "why not use an actual speaker in a chamber", and the "simulated load guy" (yes, that's how we referred to him) was obviously offended and just clammed up.

You might want to back up to the parent board and see the other threads regarding Maraschino amps.  Lots of great posts and background information, plots, specs, and much more.  Thanks for your post.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #46 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:21 pm »
I agree, and wish to add that the Maraschinos' accurate timbrel portrayal giving the presentation its sense of reality that provides both the transparency and musicality.

Yitzhak
Thanks, Yitzhak!  Hope all is well over there.

Tyson

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #47 on: 21 Apr 2015, 02:35 pm »
For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?



Ah, and here is the crux of the problem.  For the nCore crowd, there can never be such a thing, possibly because nCore gets GREAT measurements from using a truckload of feedback.  But hey, he whoever has the best measurements, wins.  Right?  Hahahaha.  Hell, when it measures as good as the nCore, you really don't even have to listen to it, just let it sit there on your bench and admire it....

[/sarcasm]

jonbee

Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #48 on: 21 Apr 2015, 04:19 pm »
Hell, when it measures as good as the nCore, you really don't even have to listen to it, just let it sit there on your bench and admire it....
[/sarcasm]
This is pretty much an insult to those of us who are serious about the sound they get who like the Ncores and don't care a bit about technology or measurements.
I've owned at least 75 quality amps of every type I can think of and heard many dozens more over my 46 years in this hobby.
Some are clearly better than others, but when you get into determining satisfaction, which is the only criteria that matters in the end, matchups are key. Matchups are at the system, room , and listener level.
This is not a sporting event, where there is one "winner". The fact that listener A prefers amp 1 in his system, and listener B likes amp 2 confers almost nothing useful to listener 3.
I won't insult you by denying what you've heard, but your comments about the sound of NCores as you have heard them is nothing like the sound in my system, which I would characterize as transparent, easy and natural. The dozen or more seasoned audiophiles who have heard it and whom also love the sound would agree,  such as easystreet:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576
I use Daedalus speakers, which have an inherently easy sound. In a more aggressive sounding system there may well be better choices.
Just out of curiosity, I'd be happy to try the Cherry amps in my system. Without hearing them in place I wouldn't even hazard a guess if they are better or worse- FOR ME.


munosmario

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #49 on: 21 Apr 2015, 04:31 pm »
Ouch!! Tyson my man....here you go again...think you just bit some "ears" off  :lol:

Cheers..........Mario

Tyson

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #50 on: 21 Apr 2015, 05:25 pm »
This is pretty much an insult to those of us who are serious about the sound they get who like the Ncores and don't care a bit about technology or measurements.
I've owned at least 75 quality amps of every type I can think of and heard many dozens more over my 46 years in this hobby.
Some are clearly better than others, but when you get into determining satisfaction, which is the only criteria that matters in the end, matchups are key. Matchups are at the system, room , and listener level.
This is not a sporting event, where there is one "winner". The fact that listener A prefers amp 1 in his system, and listener B likes amp 2 confers almost nothing useful to listener 3.
I won't insult you by denying what you've heard, but your comments about the sound of NCores as you have heard them is nothing like the sound in my system, which I would characterize as transparent, easy and natural. The dozen or more seasoned audiophiles who have heard it and whom also love the sound would agree,  such as easystreet:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576
I use Daedalus speakers, which have an inherently easy sound. In a more aggressive sounding system there may well be better choices.
Just out of curiosity, I'd be happy to try the Cherry amps in my system. Without hearing them in place I wouldn't even hazard a guess if they are better or worse- FOR ME.



Oh not at all jonbee, I highly respect people that choose an amp based on their listening preferences.  Obviously I don't share those preferences, but I'm cool with that.

No, my problem is when (some) of the nCore fanboys point to its measurements as some sort of objective truth that their amp is "the best", or if not the "best", at least better than all us unwashed masses of audiophiles that just don't know or understand "the truth" as revealed by superior measurements.  THOSE are the people my barbs are directed at.

roscoeiii

Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #51 on: 21 Apr 2015, 10:09 pm »
Any Maraschinos going to be at AXPONA this week?

barrows

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #52 on: 22 Apr 2015, 12:06 am »
Tyson:  I think you may be making a gross oversimplification when you suggest that feedback is responsible for a certain type of amplifier "sound", especially when comparing class D to more traditional A or A/B designs.  Feedback means different things to different people.  Do you mean global feedback? Or local feedback around a single gain stage?  Or perhaps the local feedback around a single amplification device (be it tube or transistor, all devices have local feedback)?  And in terms of class D, feedback works in a very different way (at a magnitude higher speed) than it does in a traditional A or A/B amplifier.
I love the sound of simple circuit, class A amplifiers with no global feedback (but, perhaps some feedback around individual stages), but I also love the sound of my Ncore amp after tuning it for my system.

I think the thing is, when someone tests a new component, and drops it into a highly tuned system, it is silly to think things are going to gel right away without re-tuning the system to suit the new component.  Example: someone has system featuring a relatively acidic sounding DAC, with loads of detail, neutral speakers, and a warm smooth amp like an old Pass Aleph 30.  The system could sound great!  But drop an Ncore amp into it and, whammo, the acidic sound of the DAC is revealed, but the Ncore is blamed when all along the very warm/smooth Aleph was balancing out the acid from the DAC...

SteveFord

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #53 on: 22 Apr 2015, 12:28 am »
So is all of this leading up to a road show?

Tyson

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #54 on: 22 Apr 2015, 12:52 am »
I just remebered I promised to try to be less dickish in my opinions, so I'll politely bow out

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #55 on: 22 Apr 2015, 01:27 am »
Any Maraschinos going to be at AXPONA this week?
It's possible, but we didn't send any for use in that particular show.  Thanks for your post.

marvda1

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #56 on: 22 Apr 2015, 02:31 am »
do you find power cords make a difference on the maraschino power supplies?

OzarkTom

Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #57 on: 22 Apr 2015, 02:41 am »
do you find power cords make a difference on the maraschino power supplies?

I did, using the 48v power supplies. Using Virtue power cables instead of standard cables, the sound is much fuller and more transparent.

Cheeseboy

Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #58 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:37 am »
A great AC cable made a huge difference in the way my Cherry sounds and and one to the Channel Islands power supply for my DSpeaker AntiMode.  Try any of the cables from VooDoo Audio.  The Absolute Sound rated them very highly and I agree with their assessment.  Use their cables designed for digital equipment and their "High Ampacity" cables for power amps. 

DS-21

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Re: Comparing Maraschino to nCore
« Reply #59 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:46 am »
Full specs are on CherryAmp.com (Desktop Maraschino).

Not impressed. A bit of variance down to the second octave of treble (5-10kHz) into different easy loads. Not something worth moving my 100+ lb ATI monster out of my audio cabinet, that's for sure!

On the plus side, because of the frequency response errors your amp would likely pass an ABX test against an amp with flat frequency response, unless the better amp were EQ'ed to have the same flaws in its FR. So you can actually say that your part sounds different, and even though it's clearly lower fidelity ("fidelity" starts with frequency response; flat FR into loads beyond those presented by typical loudspeakers is a necessary condition for an amp to be a high-fidelity device) at that point it becomes a matter of preference.

I will explain what we mean by "tweaking for sonics AFTER obtaining excellent bench measurements" there soon, so stay tuned.

Where are the excellent measurements you speak of? "Excellent measurements" in an amp must start with load-invariant flat frequency response into loads beyond those presented by typical loudspeakers. Without flat FR, there are only degrees of low-fidelity. With flat FR, then we can move on to the other things that matter, such as noise floor. (But not "THD," which is an utterly worthless metric. Bruno P may sell based on it too...but Stereophile measurements show his nCore really isn't materially different from his UcD, so...)

"a simple matter of nonflat frequency response" is an over-simplification.

Maybe if you would get there you could test that hypothesis. ;)

You can have perfectly flat response and different sound.  Time domain behavior into (or out of) the speaker can be quite different between two amplifiers with the same frequency response, into a simple or complex load.

Yawn, that old silly canard again. Now talk about the brand of magic capacitors you use..

For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?

There are a lot of non-things people who don't care to listen carefully (or just don't have good critical listening skills) imagine they can hear....

As time goes on, I'm getting better and better at predicting the sonic effect of various circuit/component changes.  This is a matter of experience.

Indeed. Experience...in marketing!