AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: zybar on 3 Jan 2009, 07:54 pm
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Just curious how people have theirs setup for 2 channel listening.
How far apart are they?
How far from the side wall?
How far from the front wall?
How much toe-in?
Thanks,
George
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z
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I'm zero'ing in on the best placement, too, but my room is so wacky (and so bad for this sort of thing) that I doubt it'll be of much use to you.
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I'm zero'ing in on the best placement, too, but my room is so wacky (and so bad for this sort of thing) that I doubt it'll be of much use to you.
I am just curious...not really looking for help.
George
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Here is a universal formula for all 2ch speaker placement.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring
I own 6 pairs of speakers and all of them sound better in that position. :thumb:
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Here is a universal formula for all 2ch speaker placement.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring
I own 6 pairs of speakers and all of them sound better in that position. :thumb:
Thanks, but as I stated above, I am just curious about how others have theirs setup.
George
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You know, I've heard of this Cardas formula before, and the thing I can't figure out is this: How can Cardas claim that the correct placement of a speaker is robust to the speaker's design? Are we to believe that a pair of (aft ported) Audio Physics Spark IIII's, a pair of (front ported) Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitors, a pair of (sealed box) Linn Ninkas, and a pair of Klipschorns, will *all* sound their best at exactly the same position in the room?
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Hear is an interesting if not unorthodox way of doing speaker set up.
http://www.mintlp.com/wild/taihup.htm
I have bought a used Nat King Cole Mono CD to do this set up with, but have not gotten around to it yet.
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Due to no other possible combo in my listening room, I have them two feet from the back wall and just ender three from the left side wall. The right speaker has an adjacent room to the right, so the right wall is 13 feet away. If I was going to stay in this home and/or purchase it, I'd put in a movable sliding wall next to the right speaker to even out reflections. Still, the ST's sound fantastic, even if it's not the ideal config.
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That's funny, my *left* speaker has an adjacent room... to its left. :roll:
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Measurements from center of drivers:
42 inches from side walls
34 inches from front wall
90 inches apart
Toe-in:
if 0 toe-in is the speakers pointed directly at my ears, the speakers are toed-out about 10 degrees, to point the speakers about 12 inches behind my head. In the alternative, if 0 toe-in is facing straight ahead, the speakers are toed-in approximately 35 degrees.
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Regarding toe in, I realize personal preference plays a big part, but have you tried less toe in? The reason I ask is because in my experience, and reading past posts from Jim and Dennis, Jim's speaker need very little toe in, or perhaps even zero degree of toe in.
Something to experiment with if you have not done so.
Mark
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35 degrees from straight ahead seems like an excessive amount of toe-in. 15 degrees is generally the most I have ever seen.
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35 degrees from straight ahead seems like an excessive amount of toe-in. 15 degrees is generally the most I have ever seen.
I appreciate the suggestions.
The speakers would point to a foot behind my head with this toe-in (or toe-out, depending on terminology). I have a room configuration problem on the right side, where there is an 30" indentation into the room (the room narrows for 3') about 5' from the front wall. If I straighten the speakers a significant amount, the right speaker will be pointed to a greater degree into the corner that forms where the room width decreases by 30". I will straighten the speakers somewhat and compare. I can also move the speakers closer together, and reduce the toe-in, which will increase the right speaker's distance from that corner. Possibly, I can demo the indentation and make the room 15' wide the entire length. Currently, the room is 15' wide for the first 5', then 12.5' wide for the remaining 10.5', although there is a 4' wide entry way at the end of the right side wall.
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Could you possibly treat that wall with room treatments to try and negate it further?
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Could you possibly treat that wall with room treatments to try and negate it further?
I did. There is a 2" panel angled across the corner, which is first reflection point, and about 17 other panels throughout room. I moved the speakers, and there isn't any toe-in (the speakers point straight front to back). I think that the soundstage is wider, although I wasn't sure that the instruments' locations were as easily defined, and I moved the speakers a few inches closer together, which seemed to improve the instrument/voice placement. Sounds good. I'll keep it like this for a while. Thanks.
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I have my ST's 11 feet apart with 15-25 degrees toe-in (if 0 is directly forward). They point a couple of feet behind me. I did not notice a difference if the angle is more than 5 and less than about 35 (depending how far I am sitting). They are 16 inches from the back wall for casual listening (rock and jazz) and ~ 20 inches for classical music. The room dimensions 20x15x17 (LxWxH). The speakers are placed against the longest wall.
I did not like when they were set directly forward, there was a hole in the stereo panorama, maybe because they are far apart. I was surprised to see that some body else came to the same conclusion :D :
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/salk-songtower-qwt/songtower-setup-and-measurements
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When measuring distance from the front wall, are you measuring from the front of the driver or the back of the speaker?
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I measure from the back of the speaker, and 16" is the shortest distance. I believe Jim's recommendation is at least 18" from the back.
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Posted by: Art_Chicago
"I did not like when they were set directly forward, there was a hole in the stereo panorama, maybe because they are far apart. "
That's because you haven't cranked them up loud enough. Ya gotta do the wall of sound, baby!
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I think every speaker has that "magic" distance between them and toe-in angle, regardless of room size. My Paradigm 40v.3 studio monitors want to be about 6 feet apart. It doesn't matter if the room was 12 feet wide or 100. That is their developing field. Parameter walls affect bass and mid bass response but are not as crucial in soundfield as distance between. That will require you to take drastic measures and free yourself of your own setway and feel free to move the speakers in or out as close as you dare (and beyond) to find their happy distance. Too far apart makes the hole. Too close together makes you wonder where the stereo went. Find the spot. Distance between is the first important factor, then after finding the "GEE" spot, fart around with toe-in angle.
Have fun.
Wayner :D
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charmerci,
"That's because you haven't cranked them up loud enough. Ya gotta do the wall of sound, baby!"
Is it the way you found your speakers' best placement? I hope not!
Wayner,
"Too far apart makes the hole. Too close together makes you wonder where the stereo went. Find the spot. Distance between is the first important factor, then after finding the "GEE" spot, fart around with toe-in angle."
I agree with this in general, but I think the ST's are quite flexible, probably more than others! 11 feet apart give me wide enough soundstage, and some toe-in allows to 'see' a full size orchestra with all of the musicians working hard; no one is taking a break in the centre :wink:.
Art
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I really don't understand the toe-in stuff, because I can't figure out what contraindicates toe-ing in speakers. Does the speakers' design indicate a manufacturer's preference for a particular placement position (angle)? With my previous speakers, a pair of Spendor S3/5, the manufacturer recommended listening to the speakers on axis, with the speakers pointed at the listener, and I had them pointed about one foot behind my head. I reviewed some of Jim and Dennis' previous posts, and they recommended placing the speakers without any toe-in or with very limited toe-in (from pointed straight ahead). After Wayner posted, I moved the speakers a little further apart, which resulted in a wider soundstage. However, with the speakers facing straight ahead, the vocals are further back in the stage. Maybe this is because the soundstage is also deeper without the toe-in than before when I had the speakers inward more. Regardless, I had become accustomed to the vocals being far out front. I'm going to Home Depot tomorrow to purchase some "floor gliders" to place under the feet to allow me to move the speakers more easily. Then I will experiment some more.
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I'd like Jim and Dennis to weigh in on this, since they both own SongTower's. How far apart do you gents have them, and how much, if any, toe-in do you use? How far are they from the room boundaries, etc? Knowing what the designers use as a guideline will certainly help aid us consumers.
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I'm still fiddling with mine but I currently have them toed in at 6 or so degrees with a spread of 7'-8" give or take.
Here are some numbers for Songtower owners based on the offset of the floor spikes.(moving one spike off of square on the short dimension).
1/4" - 1.61 degrees
1/2" - 3.23
3/4" - 4.85
1" - 6.47
1 1/4" - 8.10
1 1/2" - 9.73
1 3/4" -11.37
2" -13.02
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I don't know how to explain the sound I listen for, but it's like the speakers are really connected together, not electrically but audibly. First, you should be able to here "stereo" almost anywhere you sit. If you are along the long wall and have the speakers almost straight out, you will lose that real presence of the distant speaker (unless it has great off-axis response, which the towers seem to poses). Another test is some recording with higher frequency sound that sweeps from one channel to another. The sound should not get lost in the middle. If so, you may be too far apart, or need some toe in.
There is a magic angle, again, I can't explain it, but I move the speakers around until I hear it. When that point is hit, it goes from stereo to 3D with wide and deep soundstage, overall balanced sound and I am easily able to pinpoint sounds. The natural reverberation of the recording should also come through in colors. If your speakers sound dull and lifeless, it may not be your equipment, just the position of your speakers.
Wayner
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Everything changes the sound. I have the speakers about 90" apart, and I seem to have good stereo. If I move the speakers much further apart, I can hear the individual speakers more, and if I move them even further apart, within the limits of my room, I get a hole in the middle. If I move them a few inches closer together, it still sounds good. The toe-in seems to primarily affect the placement of instruments/voices, and in doing so, also seems to reduce the soundstage. I want the most accurate sound possible, and I don't want to merely rely on what sounds good to me, because I don't really know how it is supposed to sound, objectively. (I think that listening is a developed skill; otherwise, we wouldn't go through these processes, and everyone would be happy with whatever they had.) Notwithstanding, I prefer to have the location of voices and instruments easily identified rather than a "voice from above" (or somewhere). (Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz; they must have had terrible acoustics in there, because Dorothy et al were looking everywhere when they heard Oz's voice.) The placement of acoustic panels also affects the sound. I found that putting an additional panel on the ceiling between the speakers before the first reflection points brought the vocals out forward, notwithstanding the three panels on the ceiling that cover the reflection point. Also, my distance from the speakers affects the sound. When the speakers are further apart, I prefer to sit further away, although my room isn't very long. When the speakers are closer together, I find myself leaning forward. To me, that suggests that a lot of toe-in doesn't sound that good to me.
But, is there something specific about the SongTower design that indicates speaker placement without toe-in?
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I don't have any strong feelings about this. You don't want the ear to be too far off of the tweeter axis, since this is where the phase relationships have been optimized. But at any decent listening distance, that's not going to be a real problem with the speaks pointed straight ahead. For the record, my ST'sa are 7 feet apart, 3 feet out from the back wall, and I listen at 10 feet. I use just a smidge of toe-in. Nothing you would really notice if you walked into the room. The only performance characteristic of the ST that would affect toe-in is its very broad dispersion across the frequency spectrum. That would indicate less need for toe-in, but it's strictly a case of what makes you happy. I don't have any sound treatments other than a heavy curtain behind that I sometimes close. Mostly not. The view's really quite nice.
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Thanks, Dennis. Did you mean you listen at 10 feet?
Since I have the ribbon version of the ST's, would this also apply to them, or should I experiment more with toe-in? Thanks.
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Since I have the ribbon version of the ST's, would this also apply to them, or should I experiment more with toe-in? Thanks.
The ribbon's horizontal dispersion isn't as wide as the dome's, so I guess that would indicate more gains from toe-in. But I don't have two ribbon ST's, so I really can't say. There isn't any "right" answer. It strictly a matter of you and your room.
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Thanks for commenting, Dennis.
I have several different makes of speakers. One has almost zero toe-in, maybe 5-7 degrees, tops. It's happier than hell right their. Another brand is toed-in at about 20 degrees, both tweeters aiming at my head. That is where that pair is happy. My MartinLogan reQuests like about 10-15 degree's of toe-in. Most of the time (for all speakers in general), I like the equilateral triangle method where the distance between speakers is at least the distance from the speakers. This doesn't work for all, but it is a place to start.
OITP, I suggest you find a happy spot for the day and leave it there for awhile. If the next day you find it not right, move it a little and leave it for another day. After you've heard some hours of music, you may like it right where they are.
Wayner
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I have found that when the speakers' axis crosses somewhere around my head that the soundstage is too narrow. I find that having the speakers pointing straight ahead doesn't quite work either. I haven't measured it (as I don't have my stereo set up now :cry:) but they need to be toed-in ever so slightly. I would tend to agree with Wayner that each speaker has their optimal distance apart no matter the size of the room.
P.S. I don't have SongTowers. :( I wish.
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speakers ~72" apart (C-C)
ears ~95" from speakers
ears ~45" from rear wall
ears ~40" from floor
tweeters ~37" from floor
tweeters ~37" from side walls
rear of speakers ~30" from front wall
I have the tweeters aimed so that their on-axis intersection is right behind my head. This setup sounds great to me!
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The ribbon's horizontal dispersion isn't as wide as the dome's, so I guess that would indicate more gains from toe-in. But I don't have two ribbon ST's, so I really can't say. There isn't any "right" answer. It strictly a matter of you and your room.
Thanks, I will experiment and find a happy balance between pinpoint imaging and a large soundstage.
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I temporarily have my newest pair of SongTowers in my 2 channel setup so I can hear what they can really do with top notch gear (Atma-Sphere MA-1's, Modwright Transporter) and here is how they are setup:
Speakers are ~ 85" apart (center to center)
Speakers are ~ 34" from each side wall
Speakers are ~ 88" from the front wall
Speakers are ~ 177" from my ears to the tweeters
Speakers are toed in so that they cross about 1' behind my head
This produces a wide and deep soundstage with lots of detail, rock solid images and good bass.
George
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zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance? I wouldn't have expected that.
That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there. One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well. :thumb:
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I have the HT3s and I played around with my speaker position this morning, moving them a bit more into the room and narrowing the distance between them. It made a big difference in the sound. It now is almost holographic, much more even bass distribution and deeper soundstage. I guess the speakers are now another foot from the front wall but almost 2 feet closer together. I'll let them sit there for a day or so and maybe move them a bit one way or another.
The room is 26x20x9. The speakers are 8' from the front wall, 6' from the side walls and 8' apart. My listening position is 10' from the speakers and 8' from the back wall. All measurements +/- an inch or so. The speakers have some toe in, probably meeting at the wall behind me.
Andy
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zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance? I wouldn't have expected that.
That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there. One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well. :thumb:
I know that the distance to the speaker is further away than what is normally used, but I can tell you that it sounds good.
Given my room dimensions [Dedicated space is 29'3" x 13'9"/17'6" (first 15'3 of room/second half 14')) x 8'.] this really is the way to go.
George
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zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance? I wouldn't have expected that.
That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there. One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well. :thumb:
I know that the distance to the speaker is further away than what is normally used, but I can tell you that it sounds good.
Given my room dimensions [Dedicated space is 29'3" x 13'9"/17'6" (first 15'3 of room/second half 14')) x 8'.] this really is the way to go.
George
Gotcha. The only that matters is that it sounds good. :) Enjoy!
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Hello,
Over the last 30 years or so I have had a dozen sets of speakers and dozen different listening rooms that I have played with ...and most all required some toe in to make the speakers play the best.
Now what does this mean?
I some instances the lowest bass response and less boominess was only found when the speakers were toed in, while the same speaker not towed in a few degrees did not exhibit the best sounding (least distorted and lowest amplitude) bass...
Some speakers and rooms dictate them being away from the rear wall or side wall some distance....and ususally with good reason..
In most rooms there seems to be a relationship between where the speakers are for the optimum freq resonse mainly on the low end and their imaging.
It takes moving them around and listening from your listening position.
I think by toeing them in a few degrees towards your listing spot makes the sweet spot narrower than if you did not toe them in.
But again I have blind listened to the same speakers both towed in and not and could not tell the difference most of the time, I guessed wrong...so there ya go.
The only thing I actually noticed was the bass response in rooms seems to be better or worse...
It seems like this is the one thing that is really affected by this type of placement.
If speakers that do not image well for whatever reason are pointing straight out and they are too far apart the hole in the middle will become readily apparent and these speakers need to be placed closer together to avoid the '20' ft wide piano syndrome! lol...
I no this is not scientific, but again the only real benefit i have realized is better bass response do to the (I think) the physics of the room to speaker realationhsip.
All the best
Alex
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I'm still having trouble understanding how toe-in can affect bass response. Bass waves are omnidirectional--a pulsating sphere. If you rotate a sphere, you've got a sphere. I guess maybe the two spheres will be a little closer together if you toe in, but you could get that effect by just moving the speakers slightly closer to each other.
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I can understand how you feel about that...and I agree with you for the most part...but I think its more like when you position a subwoofer...it works better in some postions vs others...we crawl around the floor looking for the best spot for the sub..I think the bass is being influenced on by the realtaionship to walls, the ceiling, refelections etc...we arent talking about 20Hz notes...its the 40-60 + hz stuff that seems to be affected here....some speakers dont seem to have any effect but most of the ones i have owned seem to suffer from this in some way or another...
Have you tried this and what are your results??
Alex
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I don't think toe-in really affects bass response unless you have a rear ported speaker and you are near a corner, then you would get horn effect. I think the toe-in only affects the fill-in of off-axis response and perhaps too wide a distance between speakers (which in some cases) may be restricted to certain areas in a listening room by architectural features, like a fire place or some kind of bookshelves.
What adydula is talking about is the 6/6/6 rule. Speaker close to the back wall gains 6db of bass, lower it so it's close to the wall and close to the floor, gain another 6db. Move it close to the first wall, keep it close to the floor and move it close to the 2nd wall (now your in a corner) and gain another 6db in low frequencies. Of course, now it is a boom-box. That is not what I refer to as toe-in, that's just plain moving the speaker into a corner.
Wayner
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I can understand how you feel about that...and I agree with you for the most part...but I think its more like when you position a subwoofer...it works better in some postions vs others...we crawl around the floor looking for the best spot for the sub..I think the bass is being influenced on by the realtaionship to walls, the ceiling, refelections etc...we arent talking about 20Hz notes...its the 40-60 + hz stuff that seems to be affected here....some speakers dont seem to have any effect but most of the ones i have owned seem to suffer from this in some way or another...
Have you tried this and what are your results??
Alex
Bass is still omnidirectional at 60 Hz--and with most normal baffles the transition to hemisphere radiation doesn't begin until 200 Hz, becoming complete around 1 kHz. You're certainly right that the placement of a sub is critical--but that has to do with the distance from surrounding boundaries, not swiveling the sub about its axis. I guess the point about port orientation is valid, although the effect would be tiny--really tiny--unless you started with the port slam up against the back wall.
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Dennis,
In my case, my Paradigm Atom is smack against the wall. Very little movement will alter it's bass response lots. And that movement gets amplified as I move towards the quasi-corner trippler. I agree that bass notes below even 80 hz are not polarized, but they can be amplified by boundaries. I have a subwoofer in my main system that is off to the right main speaker, to the outside, but not in the corner (kind of close 4 feet maybe) and it is very effective there. The bass is simply omni-directional in its position. It truly sounds like it is coming uniformly from the entire listening room. Ask Frank Van Alstine about it. He's heard it.
Wayner aa
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I don't doubt it in the least. I think that's constent with my comments.
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Boundries is a good way to describe what I have experienced. My pair of bass reflex Dahlquist QX10's with a rear port are 20 or so inches from the rear wall and 20 inches or so from the side walls, and when they are facing straght out, parallel to the side walls they sound boomy, and when toed in a little bit,2 inches or so the boomy goes away. We arent really close to the walls so the 6/6/6 rule is not applicble here, but the 6/6/6 rule does apply when you get close to the boundries...I only know by playing with the positioning and listening and listening you will hear differences and it takes some playing with to ge the best out of your speakers and your room.
When I first got in the HT stuff I was really in to calibrating the speaker level with a SPL meter, and what a difference this did...then i discovered Audessy and DTS Master Audio and another learning curve and another level of exploration and learning...I wish there was a tool or device we could plugin to a PC and have it guide us thru some simple measurements with reference tones to get us in the ballpark etc...
Maybe this exits but i am ignorant in this area,,,
Alex
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Boundries is a good way to describe what I have experienced. My pair of bass reflex Dahlquist QX10's with a rear port are 20 or so inches from the rear wall and 20 inches or so from the side walls, and when they are facing straght out, parallel to the side walls they sound boomy, and when toed in a little bit,2 inches or so the boomy goes away. We arent really close to the walls so the 6/6/6 rule is not applicble here, but the 6/6/6 rule does apply when you get close to the boundries...I only know by playing with the positioning and listening and listening you will hear differences and it takes some playing with to ge the best out of your speakers and your room.
When I first got in the HT stuff I was really in to calibrating the speaker level with a SPL meter, and what a difference this did...then i discovered Audessy and DTS Master Audio and another learning curve and another level of exploration and learning...I wish there was a tool or device we could plugin to a PC and have it guide us thru some simple measurements with reference tones to get us in the ballpark etc...
Maybe this exits but i am ignorant in this area,,,
Alex
Here is a very promising tool:
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true
I ordered one and hope to have it shortly.
George
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Alex,
You do have 2 good tools to use that are right in your house. They are called ears. I really try to use these suckers when ever I can. A good test record or CD is a good tool as well. I've gone down that perfection road a time or two, looking for the "perfect" speaker position. I think it's reaching for grapes in most cases. We do know there are some general rules, as Dennis and others have pointed out, but in the end it's how it sounds when you plop yourself down in your favorite chair and start a listening session.
The best solution to this whole speaker placement problem is experimentation. You now know some of the general rules of behavior of sound. I think the major mistake most people make is that they get into to big of a hurry to get the speakers final resting place. Take your time. make small movements and listen to a variety of music when you put it into a new position. It takes the brain awhile to get used to the new position. Sometimes the new position can be sour grapes immediately, sometimes, you realize it was the greatest spot ever, especially the next day or 2.
Anyway, if you have Songtowers to have the problem with, luck you! aa
Wayner
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Wayner...
I ordered a pair of QWT's a few days back and am waiting patiently for them to arrive.
Yes the best tools are our 'ears' for sure if used properly!!
Like dont drink a lot before using them :D
I have been out of the limelight with the audio scene for many years and its great to be back again.
I didnt even understand what MTM even meant!!!
The Dahlquist QX10's are a bass reflex design with three 5" mid woofers and the one titanium dome tweeter..with the tweeter on the top
so I guess this means they are a MMMT or is it a TMMM!! :lol:
When I ran the Audessy program in my receiver I was in amazement on how it can do what it does....its magic to me!
And when it was done it was like 'WOW' this is different and I am glad it as in the 'better' direction to me.
When I had a pair of first generation Mirage M1's (180 pounds each) I had a marvelous time finding 'the spots for their placement' and look forward to playing again...but the room I have now is the 'one over the garage' room, and its not that big or forgiving....but we are up for the challenge!
With the Mirages I had a room built for them using good ole Paul Klipsch's Golden Mean Room specs...had the room double sheetrocked, plywood was glued and screwed and I can honestly say it was a pretty good room...especially after a beer or two!! 8)
Ok back to the waiting and other hobbies like my photography!!
Alex
George,
This looks neat...I wonder how it relates to what Audessy does, look this software presents you what the room looks like and its ' capabilities" while the Audessy right or wrong does this and makes the changes in the hardware/firmware of the electronics to apply it....I wonder if you have to take the output or recommendations of this program and manually crank it in to your electronics at the right place's'?
Alex
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Alex,
You do have 2 good tools to use that are right in your house. They are called ears. I really try to use these suckers when ever I can. A good test record or CD is a good tool as well. I've gone down that perfection road a time or two, looking for the "perfect" speaker position. I think it's reaching for grapes in most cases. We do know there are some general rules, as Dennis and others have pointed out, but in the end it's how it sounds when you plop yourself down in your favorite chair and start a listening session.
The best solution to this whole speaker placement problem is experimentation. You now know some of the general rules of behavior of sound. I think the major mistake most people make is that they get into to big of a hurry to get the speakers final resting place. Take your time. make small movements and listen to a variety of music when you put it into a new position. It takes the brain awhile to get used to the new position. Sometimes the new position can be sour grapes immediately, sometimes, you realize it was the greatest spot ever, especially the next day or 2.
Anyway, if you have Songtowers to have the problem with, luck you! aa
Wayner
Wayner,
While the ultimate decision maker for me is my ears, I have found it invaluable having tools to assist me in my quest for maximizing my setup's performance.
Something like the XTZ Analyzer will allow a person to do things for a few hundred dollars that would have cost tens of thousands of dollars not too long ago. Here are a few tasks it can perform:
* Frequency response - RTA (Real Time Analyzer)
* Frequency response, bass area (High resolution)
* Finds room nodes and calculates the necessary compensation to correct them
* Spectrogram/reverb time (Time/frequency/magnitude)
All of these will help a person dial in their system in a systematic and measureable way. IMHO, it also "teaches" a person why when they move their speakers, listening position, room treatments, etc...it impacts what they hear.
Now, the tools of the trade aren't always hi-tech. :wink: Things like pen and paper to write down your thoughts, distances, etc...Is an absolute necessity; as is using some masking tape to mark exactly where speakers and the listening position were located.
George
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I agree George, looks like a very neat tool. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using technology to help fine tune the speaker positions. I just know some people are going to get ultra fanatical about things like this and wear out their carpet or floor moving, moving and more moving. Let us know how it works out and how easy/difficult it was to use.
One trick that I use is to use masking tape on the floor, marking the 2 front corners before moving to what I think is the even better position. After a day when I decide the new position is worse then the previous, I just bring them back to the tape positions.
I also believe that speakers, within their room must have total symmetry. Easy to say, tuff to do. I use 2 small mirrors and put them on a straight front reference surface (if you have one) and find the spot I want to aim them to in the listening room. Most of the time, that spot is a few feet behind my easy chair. When I stand in that spot and can see the same image in both mirrors, I've got it dialed in. Yes, I use a tape measure to zero at least one corner of the speaker as a reference position, keeping both speakers at identical positions from the rear walls and the same for side walls. If rear wall distance is "A" distance, then I measure both speakers' reference corner and establish "A" distance for both. Then I measure out the distance from the side walls, call that distance "B". If you reference to the back outside corner of each speaker, you can use that corner as a pivot point, literally pivoting it (on a spike?) to the desired position where you think it's going to sound good. Put your mirror flat against that speaker. Go to the other speaker and toe-it in. Place the mirror in the same symmetrical postion as the other speaker. Go to your aiming spot and see if you have the same image in both mirrors. At least now, you can't blame symmetry for a lame sound.
Wayner
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I agree George, looks like a very neat tool. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using technology to help fine tune the speaker positions. I just know some people are going to get ultra fanatical about things like this and wear out their carpet or floor moving, moving and more moving. Let us know how it works out and how easy/difficult it was to use.
One trick that I use is to use masking tape on the floor, marking the 2 front corners before moving to what I think is the even better position. After a day when I decide the new position is worse then the previous, I just bring them back to the tape positions.
I also believe that speakers, within their room must have total symmetry. Easy to say, tuff to do. I use 2 small mirrors and put them on a straight front reference surface (if you have one) and find the spot I want to aim them to in the listening room. Most of the time, that spot is a few feet behind my easy chair. When I stand in that spot and can see the same image in both mirrors, I've got it dialed in. Yes, I use a tape measure to zero at least one corner of the speaker as a reference position, keeping both speakers at identical positions from the rear walls and the same for side walls. If rear wall distance is "A" distance, then I measure both speakers' reference corner and establish "A" distance for both. Then I measure out the distance from the side walls, call that distance "B". If you reference to the back outside corner of each speaker, you can use that corner as a pivot point, literally pivoting it (on a spike?) to the desired position where you think it's going to sound good. Put your mirror flat against that speaker. Go to the other speaker and toe-it in. Place the mirror in the same symmetrical postion as the other speaker. Go to your aiming spot and see if you have the same image in both mirrors. At least now, you can't blame symmetry for a lame sound.
Wayner
Some great tips Wayner.
To get my speakers positioned symmetrically, I use lasers. aa
I tend to use mirrors for figuring out primary and secondary reflection points. This helps me optimize room treatment placement.
George
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I have the XTZ analyzer and, it is an invaluable tool. The built-in soundcard can be a little noisy, but for the money it is very good.
I especially like the Spectrogram. If you can get the low frequencies under 50ms your sound will be much clearer with less overhang.
Bass notes will be better defined, less boominess.
I agree using your God given tools are important, but tools like this help show, how your room reacts to the changes you make!
Some people are blessed with good rooms, others have to work at it using room treatments, speaker placement, soft furniture, etc.
I am a big fan of treating your room, so many people have mega-buck systems in bad rooms and, wonder why the sound isn't up to their expectations.Then they go on the equipment merry-go-round, problem is the room not the electronics.
Having a good room is a platform for your system to perform at its best.
Joe
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After two months I'm still messing with placement of my RTs. Initially they were placed 92" apart with 6 degrees toe in and then I saw Dennis' post and decided to bring them together a bit.
Now they sit 7 feet apart, and in my situation, the sound became more cohesive with a lot more going on in the middle of the soundstage. Since then I have been moving them towards the front wall bit by bit to get the right sound and noticed the changes especially in bass and mid-bass range. Last night I listened to some solo piano work and was detecting a rather diffuse sound especially when moving around a bit. Instead of making a minor placement change I decided to do a drastic toe in adjusment and cranked them around to 13 degrees and POW the piano became rock solid. I put on some other music and played with the toe a bit more and now they are toed at 11+ degrees with the seven foot spread with my listening position at 11'. The tweeters are aimed to cross 5' 5" behind my head. This configuation definately brought the 3D aspect on in spades.
I love playing with my toys. :D
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I agree George, looks like a very neat tool. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using technology to help fine tune the speaker positions. I just know some people are going to get ultra fanatical about things like this and wear out their carpet or floor moving, moving and more moving. Let us know how it works out and how easy/difficult it was to use.
One trick that I use is to use masking tape on the floor, marking the 2 front corners before moving to what I think is the even better position. After a day when I decide the new position is worse then the previous, I just bring them back to the tape positions.
I also believe that speakers, within their room must have total symmetry. Easy to say, tuff to do. I use 2 small mirrors and put them on a straight front reference surface (if you have one) and find the spot I want to aim them to in the listening room. Most of the time, that spot is a few feet behind my easy chair. When I stand in that spot and can see the same image in both mirrors, I've got it dialed in. Yes, I use a tape measure to zero at least one corner of the speaker as a reference position, keeping both speakers at identical positions from the rear walls and the same for side walls. If rear wall distance is "A" distance, then I measure both speakers' reference corner and establish "A" distance for both. Then I measure out the distance from the side walls, call that distance "B". If you reference to the back outside corner of each speaker, you can use that corner as a pivot point, literally pivoting it (on a spike?) to the desired position where you think it's going to sound good. Put your mirror flat against that speaker. Go to the other speaker and toe-it in. Place the mirror in the same symmetrical postion as the other speaker. Go to your aiming spot and see if you have the same image in both mirrors. At least now, you can't blame symmetry for a lame sound.
Wayner
Bryan recommended moving the center of the listening seat 6 inches to one or the other sides and to be at approx 62% back from the front wall (seat). Seems to work pretty darn well. Sp symetrical, but shifted so to speak. I eyeball the toe in amount but will try a laser for kicks to see how good my eye was.
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I have the XTZ analyzer and, it is an invaluable tool. The built-in soundcard can be a little noisy, but for the money it is very good.
I especially like the Spectrogram. If you can get the low frequencies under 50ms your sound will be much clearer with less overhang.
Bass notes will be better defined, less boominess.
I agree using your God given tools are important, but tools like this help show, how your room reacts to the changes you make!
Some people are blessed with good rooms, others have to work at it using room treatments, speaker placement, soft furniture, etc.
I am a big fan of treating your room, so many people have mega-buck systems in bad rooms and, wonder why the sound isn't up to their expectations.Then they go on the equipment merry-go-round, problem is the room not the electronics.
Having a good room is a platform for your system to perform at its best.
Joe
My XTZ kit arrived and I hope to try it tonight.
George
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George (and other XTZ users),
I'm looking forward to your report(s). I have several (14) Realtrap products in my room, along with a dozen ASC half rounds on the sloped ceiling. In anticipation of the repainting, and riser install in back third of room, I've taken down the ASC half rounds (am gonna sell them cuz they're wrong color,etc.) and am very interested in thinking about using an XTZ for hearing AND seeing the differences as I add or subtract room treatments during this process.
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George (and other XTZ users),
I'm looking forward to your report(s). I have several (14) Realtrap products in my room, along with a dozen ASC half rounds on the sloped ceiling. In anticipation of the repainting, and riser install in back third of room, I've taken down the ASC half rounds (am gonna sell them cuz they're wrong color,etc.) and am very interested in thinking about using an XTZ for hearing AND seeing the differences as I add or subtract room treatments during this process.
Ted,
This is exactly what I plan to do with all of my RealTraps panels.
I did this in a very small fashion last weekend when using the SMS-1 to dial in the bass on my 5A's. My friend and I clearly saw that moving just a single RealTraps panel could impact the readings.
George
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George (and other XTZ users),
I'm looking forward to your report(s). I have several (14) Realtrap products in my room, along with a dozen ASC half rounds on the sloped ceiling. In anticipation of the repainting, and riser install in back third of room, I've taken down the ASC half rounds (am gonna sell them cuz they're wrong color,etc.) and am very interested in thinking about using an XTZ for hearing AND seeing the differences as I add or subtract room treatments during this process.
Ted,
This is exactly what I plan to do with all of my RealTraps panels.
I did this in a very small fashion last weekend when using the SMS-1 to dial in the bass on my 5A's. My friend and I clearly saw that moving just a single RealTraps panel could impact the readings.
George
I am eager to read about your experience, too, George. My traps/panels are from acoustimac, and Sal, the owner, stated, when I was discussing the panels' placements with him, "Isn't it funny how moving one panel can make so much difference?" I wouldn't describe it as funny, but it certainly is interesting. I found the most noticeable difference, without the use of any metering device, with the location of the panels on the ceiling, where there is less coverage per square foot than on the walls.