AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: JLM on 1 Apr 2015, 12:38 pm
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I already own a 2012 iMac (stock 21 inch version), a 2014 MacBook Air (stock 13 inch version), and iPhone 4S. So far just use iTunes.
Question: Best to buy $3000+ DAC using one of the (non-dedicated) Macs or split the budget up for a player/streamer (whatever) and DAC?
I've noticed that most DACs in the $1000 - 2000 range are DAC/pre-amps, which would leave the door open to sell my pre-amp and have the option to someday develop a desktop setup with active speakers. This is a definite consideration.
The iMac sits at my desk (directly behind "the" listening chair, not the ideal position), so I've been using a $6, 35 foot long optical to an ancient/cheap DAC that amazingly works 99.999% of the time. The iMac also has an ethernet output.
The MacBook is my portable computer, it frequently moves, so I would envision using the MacBook while listening (no optical or ethernet outputs) via a 3 - 5 meter long USB cable to a new DAC from my listening chair (near-field setup), recognizing that long USB cabling is not recommended.
TIA
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In that price range I'd be tempted to go with an Oppo 105 modified by Dan Wright, but I haven't really gotten into hi-rez digital so almost all my content is still on round plastic things.
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I use the Cary tube DAC - http://www.caryaudio.com/products/dac-100t/.
It has a USB input as well as coax and optical.
I use a Logitech Squeezebox that I have had for years and it accesses an external hard drive where I have about 2k hours of music.
The new 200t is out now, but if I recall, Cary was planning on adding DSD to this model which is overkill for my use.
I paid $2,200 from my Cary dealer, that may have gone done since the 200t has been released.
Also looks like they have some music server models - I know Wyred 4 Sound offers 1 and Marantz as well - just off the top of my head.
I have had good experience with Cary gear and it uses 2 x 6922 tubes which was attractive to me.
Good luck -
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You can use your MacBook very successfully with a DAC that has a good USB input. $3500 puts you in Auralic Vega territory, so that is the one to get in my opinion. The USB input on this DAC is really fantastic. USB Cable choice is critical to getting the best results as well.
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How about a Teac UD501 does DSD also for under $1000. Sounds really good. A used Vega a nice dac and pre-amp on audiogon 2800. . Nice sound.
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There are lots of choices out there and of course digital changes more rapidly than other formats. Much depends on how much file playback and hi-rez file playback you'll do as well as what kinds of discs (CDs, SACDs, etc.) you will be spinning. For me I have lots of hi-rez files, including DSD and I rarely play a disc (it is there if someone else comes over). I have two HAL (Hollis Audio Labs) music servers, an MS-2 and an MS-3. There's a whole thread here - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132170.0
For me with JRiver (or you could do Foobar for free) the HAL products are great and don't break the bank and leave plenty of money left over for a DAC and Rich Hollis is a top notch guy. You could of course do JRiver on the MAC too but I prefer something dedicated (I have JRiver and Foorbar on my PC too) for the audio system.
If you want a disc spinner/DAC, you could start out with an Oppo 105D along with something like an HAL MS-3 and be hundreds under your budget and could always get the 105D modded down the road. I don't have much need for a disc spinner so I have two 103Ds in two system. One is solely for video in the main system and the other is for video and audio in a third system. The 103D also does DSD files attached to a hard drive as well (and I can control it with the Oppo Media App and an iPhone).
So my advice would be to decide if you really care about disc playback. If you're going to use it for file playback mainly, then invest in a player/streamer and a DAC.
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How about a Teac UD501 does DSD also for under $1000. Sounds really good. A used Vega a nice dac and pre-amp on audiogon 2800. . Nice sound.
The Teac is very nice for the money. I have one in a secondary system with the HAL MS-3 with JRiver on it. I got my Teac 18 months ago for under $800. It does double DSD and up to 384kHz PCM. I listened to some free sample cuts from justlisten.nativedsd.com several days back in double DSD and 352.8kHz. They were outstanding. The nice thing about the Teac and MS-3 is that it will only take up just under half your budget leaving you plenty of funds for hi-rez purchases.
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The MacBook is my portable computer, it frequently moves, so I would envision using the MacBook while listening (no optical or ethernet outputs) via a 3 - 5 meter long USB cable to a new DAC from my listening chair (near-field setup), recognizing that long USB cabling is not recommended.
TIA
Given this issue, I'd check out the Sony HAP-Z1ES as you would no longer require a music server. I've compared it to the Vega in my system and, via RCA outputs, they were very close and since then Sony has updated it's firmware and it sounds even better. Price is very attractive too, I think it's at the very top of the value for the money equation when considering digital sources.
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The Teac is very nice for the money. I have one in a secondary system with the HAL MS-3 with JRiver on it. I got my Teac 18 months ago for under $800. It does double DSD and up to 384kHz PCM. I listened to some free sample cuts from justlisten.nativedsd.com several days back in double DSD and 352.8kHz. They were outstanding. The nice thing about the Teac and MS-3 is that it will only take up just under half your budget leaving you plenty of funds for hi-rez purchases.
For the money I agree but the Teac is nowhere close to the performance of the Sony HAP or Auralic Vega. I'd put the Teac in the same performance category as the Schiit Bifrost, ifi Micro, etc... good but they leave a lot on the table compared to much more expensive options.
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You are in the Auralic Vega price territory. I do not think you will find a higher performance DAC in this price area, the Vega is really good for the money.
I would stay away from such long USB cables though. Consider putting your laptop close to the DAC and controlling it remotely.
Not quite as user friendly as the Vega is the Chord Hugo, but it has a sound many people really seem to like.
As always, audition in your system first!
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Although I have not heard the Vega, it does get alot of high praise. That DAC is more in line for your budget.
I do not agree with the Schiit Audio comment. The one to get is the Gungnir, not the Bifrost. The good thing about Schiit Audio, is that it was started by two guys who have been in the digital industry for awhile and the products they make are upgradable. That is important now, since digital audio improves so rapidly. I have a Bifrost that I ugraded to an Uber by swapping the analog card. I really like the Bifrost Uber. Also don't overlook Benchmark. They make very good DACs within your budget.
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I don't think 3-5 meter for a USB Cable is out of the question...
I'll echo the HAP-Z1ES. It is a great all in one unit. You did mention using the DAC for volume control or to displace a preamp, and with the Sony, you cannot do this. You are also locked in to this unit where other DAC's will provide more expandability, but this is not necessarily a bad thing depending on what you want to do... Other than that, it is a very great sounding unit, especially considering the cost.
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Used PS Audio Directstream would be my choice.
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What I'm asking is much more about future desktop (DAC/pre-amp) than spinning disks (that I see as all but extinct).
Yes, I purposely set the budget to correspond to be inclusive of the well respected Aurelic Vega DAC, but also within reach of several DAC/pre-amps + a number of less expensive servers.
The most of the current $1000 - 2000 DAC darlings include pre-amp functions, but the Sony seems to put too much in one basket while still requiring a pre-amp or at least a volume control.
I was really psyched over the Hugo last year, but it's really designed for portable use, OTOH Chord is supposed to be releasing two desktop versions, the 2Qute at $1800 and a much more expensive one. However the 2Qute lacks pre-amp functions, putting it at a disadvantage to Benchmark, Hegel HD12, Oppo HA-1, Mytek 192, or NuPrime DAC 10/10H.
I'm a total computer dunce, so will need the support hopefully included with purchasing new.
The basic question is: at this price point (significantly cheaper could be a different topic), would a server with class B DAC make more sense than the Aurelic Vega DAC (class A) using an existing MacBook?
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I'm a total computer dunce, so will need the support hopefully included with purchasing new.
The basic question is: at this price point (significantly cheaper could be a different topic), would a server with class B DAC make more sense than the Aurelic Vega DAC (class A) using an existing MacBook?
I was there a few years ago and while not an expert, I find that JRiver is really easy/ user friendly. There are many fine DACs out there. If you have audio hobby people near you (either from this site or others), I'd at least try hands on a couple of the interfaces to see which you feel comfortable with. You don't want to end up with something that either has a lot of glitches or has things which you don't feel comfortable resolving regularly.
For example besides many people here using JRiver, they have this - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Main_Page
plus a forum and have been in business many years.
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So many choices available, coupled with law of diminishing returns, leads me to suggest ..... spend the majority of your budget on more music :P
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So many choices available, coupled with law of diminishing returns, leads me to suggest ..... spend the majority of your budget on more music :P
I do not believe you have hit the point of diminishing returns at the budget JLM has set. There is a massive difference in performance between, for example, the Teac and the Auralic, which does scale with price. But it would be hard to live with the Teac after you've heard the Auralic.
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What I'm asking is much more about future desktop (DAC/pre-amp) than spinning disks (that I see as all but extinct).
Yes, I purposely set the budget to correspond to be inclusive of the well respected Aurelic Vega DAC, but also within reach of several DAC/pre-amps + a number of less expensive servers.
The most of the current $1000 - 2000 DAC darlings include pre-amp functions, but the Sony seems to put too much in one basket while still requiring a pre-amp or at least a volume control.
I was really psyched over the Hugo last year, but it's really designed for portable use, OTOH Chord is supposed to be releasing two desktop versions, the 2Qute at $1800 and a much more expensive one. However the 2Qute lacks pre-amp functions, putting it at a disadvantage to Benchmark, Hegel HD12, Oppo HA-1, Mytek 192, or NuPrime DAC 10/10H.
I'm a total computer dunce, so will need the support hopefully included with purchasing new.
The basic question is: at this price point (significantly cheaper could be a different topic), would a server with class B DAC make more sense than the Aurelic Vega DAC (class A) using an existing MacBook?
I was using a Mac Mini along with the Vega. I changed the Mac Mini to an Aries. Did the sound improve? Yes. Did the sound improve as much, when I replaced my previous DAC (a very tricked out Buffalo) to the Auralic Vega?
No. Absolutely not.
Under $10K, I would seriously look at the Vega. You can upgrade your MacBook later if need be. I know of nothing cheaper in cost than a Vega that is worlds better than it. Different? Maybe. Worlds better? Nope.
But remember, it's supposed to be FUN!
Best,
Anand.
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The Oppo 105 is excellent, and the Modwright Truth mod makes it superb. The Sony Hap-Z is also excellent if you don't want to spin discs. Both are great value, and allow for a wide range of media.
I take advantage of the 22,000+ CD collection at my local public library, which allows me to explore a diverse range of music, and only buy what really pleases me. Used CD's are incredibly cheap.
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How about a Lampizator DAC and JPlay 6 with a computer as a server for your music. That could be sweet!
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Vega!!!! Zero regret on that purchase.
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I do not believe you have hit the point of diminishing returns at the budget JLM has set. There is a massive difference in performance between, for example, the Teac and the Auralic, which does scale with price. But it would be hard to live with the Teac after you've heard the Auralic.
Subjectively there may be a difference (who is to say someone might not prefer the Teac?) but, objectively ....
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I was using a Mac Mini along with the Vega. I changed the Mac Mini to an Aries. Did the sound improve? Yes. Did the sound improve as much, when I replaced my previous DAC (a very tricked out Buffalo) to the Auralic Vega?
No. Absolutely not.
Under $10K, I would seriously look at the Vega. You can upgrade your MacBook later if need be. I know of nothing cheaper in cost than a Vega that is worlds better than it. Different? Maybe. Worlds better? Nope.
But remember, it's supposed to be FUN!
Best,
Anand.
+1 my sentiments exactly. Vega first, then an Aries next when you're ready to upgrade from your MacBook. Or some dealers may even be willing to do a package deal / discount with a Vega / Aries combo so you don't go too far above your budget... :wink:
Also agreed as previously stated to not overdue it with the USB cable length. Keep the USB cable under 3M and get a decent one - the sound quality difference is worth jt. Get an iPad or iPod as a remote control for the MacBook / iTunes or Jriver. The less you run the MacBook with the screen on the better it will sound as well.
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From the professional reviews, the only issue I've found with the Auralic Vega is it's digital volume control that reportedly is pretty crummy at lower levels (where I'd expect to be most of the time), making it useless for desktop use (or to allow me to sell my pre-amp).
BTW, the stated budget (like any budget should be) is the targeted maximum. Lower priced solutions that come close would be a plus!
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AURALiC Vega
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JLM -
Grace Designs M 920 remains a viable option. It provides the latest Sabre Dac with all hi rez options, contains a highly regarded headphone amp, has balanced circuitry, 2 analog inputs (1 Bal, 1 unbal) and 4 digital inputs, replaces your preamp, has higher resale than anything else proposed. There is a remote available as an option. Additionally, the astute observer would recognize a very JRDG looking design. Michael Grace apprenticed under Jeff 20-odd years ago after he left the Vanderbilt University EE program. They remain friends and you can benefit from that friendship. The M-920 retails for $1895 at musician supply stores. Remote is an option at about $100 or $150 (don't remember).
This is pro audio at its best. Consider matching with Event Opal speakers unless they are too big.
Good luck, in any case. I read your posts eagerly because you do your homework so well.
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From the professional reviews, the only issue I've found with the Auralic Vega is it's digital volume control that reportedly is pretty crummy at lower levels (where I'd expect to be most of the time), making it useless for desktop use (or to allow me to sell my pre-amp).
BTW, the stated budget (like any budget should be) is the targeted maximum. Lower priced solutions that come close would be a plus!
Unless a system has really poor gain matching, there should not be a problem with using a digital volume control. I believe the Vega uses at least 32 bits for the volume control, that means you have 8 bits of volume reduction (-48 dB) before there is any loss of resolution with 24 bit files, and 16 bits of volume reduction (-96 dB!) before there is any loss of resolution with 16 bit files.
Additionally, as the Vega has over 120 dB of ultimate resolution, I highly doubt abyone could hear a slight loss of resolution at super low levels, as at these low levels, no one is going to be using complete (120 dB) dynamic range anyway-think about it a little, at low levels, are you still having 120 dB peaks-I do not think so.
When you use a high degree of attenuation with a digital volume control, where the resolution is lost is in the low level details, and at such low volumes, those details would be too low in level to hear anyway.
The exception of course would be if your amplifier is very high gain and your speakers very sensitive-but this is easily corrected by putting a simple resistor pad at the input of the amplifier to assure that one is not using more than 60 dB of attenuation in the Vega.
Of course, as I mentioned before, try it in your system before the purchase is finalized, as one should do when buying any DAC. Without matching to your system, speculating on what will be best is just that.
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Another vote for the Vega. My system has never sounded better. I liked it enough I have an Aries on the way.
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barrows, it may seem as simple as adding a resistor at the amp input, but it indeed isn't. I've tried it, but still couldn't stay in the full resolution range of my DAC with soo much attenuation. Also, something important worth mentioning is impedance matching. This can affect sound quality A LOT. I don't want to derail the thread, as this is another can of worms. Just want to state that going source direct to amp is not always as easy it perhaps should be or seems, if one wants to get the best from their system.
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Assuming that the computer processor is 64bit, why wouldn't using the player's software to control the volume be a viable option to the 32bit volume control via the DAC.
Scotty
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Yes, you're right. I don't believe using a computer as a source has the same volume control complications as using a streamer, such as the Aries etc.
With a computer as the source, and assuming DAC direct to amp is the goal, the other hurdle is still impedance matching......which can be done with a choice of buffers somewhat widely available (tube or solid state).
What I'm surprised isn't more common are DACs with low output impedance or maybe a variable output impedance (for use with preamps or direct to amps). I'm sure this is more complex than I know. Then again, wouldn't it be a matter of just having a switchable output buffer built in?
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From the Auralic Vega website:
Analog Outputs
1*Balanced XLR(output impedance 4.7ohm)
1*Single-ended RCA(output impedance 50ohm)
I suspect most DACs with a correctly designed output stage will have a low enough output impedance that there will not be a problem with an impedance mis-match, whether it will sound good driving a load directly without an intervening preamp or buffer is a more complex question with an answer that starts with, it depends ....
Scotty
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JLM,
If i was looking for a DAC with volume control, I would consider using Wyred4sound DAC 2. I have several systems and the DAC 2 works very well..
V....
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From the Auralic Vega website:
Analog Outputs
1*Balanced XLR(output impedance 4.7ohm)
1*Single-ended RCA(output impedance 50ohm)
I suspect most DACs with a correctly designed output stage will have a low enough output impedance that there will not be a problem with an impedance mis-match, whether it will sound good driving a load directly without an intervening preamp or buffer is a more complex question with an answer that starts with, it depends ....
Scotty
+1 That is definitely true. It depends.
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JLM,
If i was looking for a DAC with volume control, I would consider using Wyred4sound DAC 2. I have several systems and the DAC 2 works very well..
V....
I have a DAC2 and upgraded it to SE last summer. It is indeed a versatile DAC. However, in my experience, the sound was (is) better with a preamp. But note, I also had to attenuate too much (drop too many digital bits) to get the volume down to the levels I regularly listen at. I even tried using Harrison Labs -12db attenuator plugs at the amp. They helped, but not enough. Since then, I've used the DAC 2 with an STP SE, a couple of tube preamps, and now a Bent AVC-1.
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Did you try attenuating the output in the player software via its volume control?
Scotty
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I would give strong consideration to Hugo Chord. It has a very romantic, intoxicating liquid sound with good bass and detail. It leans on the warmer side of neutral.
I recently reviewed the Exogal Comet here on AC. It has a very 3D sound, with a huge sound stage and depth. It has great detail and resolution.
Here is a pro review-
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu
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JRiver Media Center 20 for MAC, JRiver Id player/renderer, JRemote app (for ipad), and Wyred4Sound DAC-2. If you want to spend your full budget, Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSDse with femto clock is approx $1000 above the base DAC-2.
you can control music selection from the iPad or iMac and render music from the computer in a different part of the house or near your computer. You can also use the JRiver Id as a player from its internal hard drive. Id is Linux based.
DAC-2 $1500
JRiver Id with 2TB HDD $395
JRemote app $10
JRiver Media Center for MAC $50
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Did you try attenuating the output in the player software via its volume control?
Scotty
Sorry. Should've stated that I haven't used it with a computer as a source (yet). I just don't like the idea of a computer in my audio system, so I'm slow to even try it. I know others share my sentiment. Now, something like the Aries which is a purpose built machine to stream everything to an audio system, I may have to get on board with..........though it does nothing in terms of attenuation control (for those concerned with this subject).
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I also heard the original Exasound (e20) at the 2013 Capital Audiofest. Janszen used it in their room as a preamp DAC with their speakers and Bryston power pacs. Brought a thumb drive with many things and spent quite a while in the room. Based on what I heard, I'd think that for someone looking for a DAC/preamp that may be a consideration was well. As far as the Benchmark goes, at the 2013 Capital Audiofest, Everything Audio Network had a stack of DACs (5 DACs with levels equalized including the Teac, Benchmark, Parasound, Hilo and Mytek). The system included Legacy Audio monitors and a Rogue integrated amp. I preferred the Teac to everything in that room. The guy who sold me my Meitner bought the Benchmark (didn't have that much digital) and I told him and he agreed with my observation and sold the Benchmark after listening to the Teac.
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Lots of mis-information in this thread re going DAC direct to amps. Impedance mis-match: pretty much nonsense, especially with the low output impedance of the Vega! Compare the output impedance of the Vega to any pre-amp. This is simple math folks. Whether or not a given DAC can properly drive an amplifier directly is a function of the output stage design of the DAC, and contemporary DACs generally have output stages which are exactly the same as that of contemporary preamps. Especially the Vega with its discrete output buffer, low output impedance, and hig output current capability. In fact, the output stage of the Vega is more capable than a number of high end preamps.
Additionally, unless your system has totally innapropriate gain matching (using a very high gain amp with very high sensitivity speakers) using a well designed digital volume control poses no problems: indeed it actually offers better performance than even the best switched resistor ladder and infinitely better than almost any pot. What many fail to realize is that resistor based VCs reduce resolution as well, adding noise in proportion to the amount of attenuation applied.
It is OK with me if some "prefer" the sound of an additional pre-amp, but those who do need to realize that they are preferring having the preamp in the chain because of the added coloration it provides, and not because of better resolution.
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I don't think there's any misinformation. I never aluded to impedance having anything to do with a DAC's ability (ie max output voltage) to drive an amp. And keep in mind we're not talking about JUST the Auralic Vega. With that said, Scotty said it best "It depends." (Ie, the resulting sound quality, depends on various factors, ie output impedance of any given DAC and the input impedance of any given amp, voltages, desired volume levels, etc. etc).
Note, I would be extremely surprised if lowering the volume digitally via MY DAC 2 SE and running direct to MY amp had better resolution and dynamics, than running the DAC 2 SE at full resolution (ie full output voltage) into my Bent AVC-1 for attenuation. In other words, I don't think my Bent AVC-1 is coloring the sound any more than dropping bits would via digital attenuation, in my system. In fact, I've found dropping bits to kill dynamics and extension. Matter of preference you say? I'm not so certain it isn't more about getting maximum performance in some cases (like mine). I have to attenuate A LOT. Compared to all other preamp types, AVC's and TVC's actually work better the more they attenuate.
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I too am looking at upgrading my DAC - an Eastern Electric DAC Plus I bought a few years ago. After reading about pretty much every current DAC offering on the planet, I've narrowed it down to the Vega, a Lampizator, or possibly a Resonessence Invicta Mirus. A Lampizator 4, generation 4 can be had for about the cost of the Vega, and several who have owned both DACs claim that the Lampizator outperforms the Vega by a fair margin. Even the $2000 Amber Lampizator is reported to produce superb sound. I have never heard any of these DACs but I think for $2,500 - $3000 these are probably the top contenders. I am retiring in 3 months and will be rewarding myself with a new DAC to enjoy as I put my feet up for the first few months!!
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@MttBsh
Retirement = more music time. congrats on your upcoming retirement.
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Take care of room and speaker problems in addition to getting a DAC and grab a DEQX. Might need to look used. Not sure what they have at your price point.
Loving my HDP-4.
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Wow, most of my threads die a quick death. You guys are rocking.
Almost sorry to have mentioned the Vega's volume control, but a couple of the professional reviewers mentioned it (the others used pre-amps). One who did have a problem indicated better sound by adding a pre-amp. I have a pre-amp, but was hoping to be able to download it (especially in a desktop application). Yeah (barrows, Scotty) I don't understand why the Vega (or any other good piece, RDavidson) that advertises being a pre-amp shouldn't be able to perform as such under all but the most extreme conditions. And as a former purist I too am leery of the pre-amps embellishing the sound.
Yes, MttBsh I owned the EE DAC years ago and looked at the Lampizator, but it's too big for desktop and lacks headphone outputs. I'm 91 days into retirement (and counting up), fortunately coasting with a pension while waiting for Social Security to kick in, but wanting to find meaningful part-time work/volunteering.
Phil A, which Teac? (Seems too good to be true if it's the UD-501, which unfortunately lacks pre-amp function.)
Yes, Greyhound I was very hyped over the Hugo last year, but it is really designed for portable use and my speakers are already on the warmer side. The Chordette 2Qute (cheaper desktop version of the Hugo) should be released this month but lacks volume control. Thanks for the link to the professional review of the Exogel Comet. I greatly appreciated your review.
Macrojack, thanks for the note on the Grace, it's on my list to research. (Those with more wants than means, like me, window shop.)
Lots of love from the professional media for Benchmark Dac 2 and Oppo HA-1 but not around these parts, wonder why?
Hegel HD12 and NuPrime DAC-10H should garnish at least a mention (both new) but outside the NuPrime circle, nothing on either. Again wonder why?
roscoeiii, I already have a Behringer DEQ2496, that I'm planning to replace with as part of my player software. Any suggestions?
I'm planning on going to Axpona on the 25th, to hopefully get some impressions and answers.
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Phil A, which Teac? (Seems too good to be true if it's the UD-501, which unfortunately lacks pre-amp function.)
Yes - did not realize you were looking for a DAC/Preamp at first. That's why I mentioned Exasound later in the thread that I heard at the 2013 Capital Audiofest and was used as a DAC/preamp. Exasound also has a 30 day in home trial so it can be auditioned with what you have and you can be the judge of how it stacks up.
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roscoeiii, I already have a Behringer DEQ2496, that I'm planning to replace with as part of my player software. Any suggestions?
I'm planning on going to Axpona on the 25th, to hopefully get some impressions and answers.
Unfortunately no real suggestions. I went from the DSPeaker Dual Core to the DEQX after reading Kal Rubinson's review of the DEQX and an A'gon thread on the DEQX. DEQX really shines in terms of the speaker correction it does in addition to correcting for room effects. And it has EQ functionality in the digital domain that is massively flexible. If you want a headphone output, then you'd need a separate headphone amp if you go with the DEQX. And if most of your listening is via headphones, then you are missing a lot of the DEQX functionality (though the DSP and speaker correction can be easily bypassed to use it just as a preamp/DAC with analog volume control).
I'll also be at AXPONA. Hope to be able to meet you there!
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I was just going to mention making room and/or bass correction part of the equation. In my (currently pretty small) room, if I bypass the correction on my DSPeaker Anti-Mode Dual Core, then turn it back on, the difference is insane. Not like, 'oh there's a little tightening up at in the bass', like, 'holy mother of god, that's what's up.' Night and day. Double blind ABX conducted on grandmas who hate music.
Seems to me that this kind of control is worth the $800 (used) or $1,200 (new I think), especially considering you get a good hi-res optical and USB DAC (though not SOTA) and preamp with remote, balanced connections, etc.
With your budget I'd probably pair it with an Auralic Aries and be done. Experiment with which functions played by each unit sound best and rock on into sonic bliss.
2 cents deposited.
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I too am looking at upgrading my DAC - an Eastern Electric DAC Plus I bought a few years ago.
I dunno. Tweaked with DEXA discrete op-amps, tube pulled out, via SS output, good power cord (say Triode Wire Labs 7+), with corrected phase (LED light red not green), Eastern Electric Plus DAC is VERY difficult to beat even today IMO :thumb:
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I also have a Vega in my system. I have tried taking my pre-amp out of the chain and just use the Vega for volume control but much prefer using it with my pre-amp.
I am using a Pass Labs xp30 for the pre. I have had three different DACs with volume control and always preferred having a Pre-amp in the loop.
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It is OK with me if some "prefer" the sound of an additional pre-amp, but those who do need to realize that they are preferring having the preamp in the chain because of the added coloration it provides, and not because of better resolution.
Any one who thinks that a preamp does not impart a sound to the music is fooling themselves. Every piece of gear imparts a sound. A DAC being used as a preamp or just as a DAC will have its own sound. I always cringe when people start talking about preamps getting in the way. I find that moving up the price change improves the sound with all gear although there is some expensive gear that are duds.
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Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.
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Another DAC to consider is the NAD M12
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M12/NAD-Masters-Series-M12.html?tp=181&awkw=82501798105&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=52095131425&awdv=c
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If I were in the market for a DAC w/ volume control I'd go with Vinnie Rossi's new LIO modular system. Configured with his DAC and RVC/Tube stage volume control its right at $3,500. If you can spend a little more money I'm sure Vinnie's Autoformer Volume Control option (designed by John Chapman of Bent Audio and David Slagle of Intact Audio) would be excellent. Since the LIO is modular you can add features like a power amp, headphone amp and phono stage later if you wanted.
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Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.
I just bought oen of these recently and am in awe of the sound. My digital music has never sounded better. I have it running through my ARC Preamp and it's fantastic.
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I just bought oen of these recently and am in awe of the sound. My digital music has never sounded better. I have it running through my ARC Preamp and it's fantastic.
+1
I just got my four year old base level DAC-2 back from Wyred4Sound with the femto clock upgrade. I have an Audio Horizons Tube buffer between the DAC and the integrated amp and AVR. I'm extremely happy with the combo....
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Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.
Can't go wrong with a W4S dac
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You're not going to go wrong with any of these suggestions most likely. I do think if I hadn't committed to the DEQX approach, I'd check out the LIO. But the info above about the Aurilec analog output stage is compelling. I tried the W4S DAC2 in my system and preferred the sound with my kW preamp in the chain. As I had with passive preamps, I felt that the impact and dynamics were diminished. Tho it should be noted that those are a particular strength of that pre (due to its super burly power supply?).
And yes, system gain in the matching of components will also be key here, as in any system.
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As I've already invested in the MacBook Air with the idea of using it for the audio system, I'll bypass the server. And after some more research and soul searching I've decided to scale down my budget to $2000 for a DAC/pre-amp/headphone-amp that could also be used for desktop use. I'm focusing on:
Benchmark DAC-2 HCG (this gold standard for this equipment category)
BMC PureDAC (emotionally satisfying but it's big for desktop use)
Grace m920 (another very professional piece)
Hegel HD 12 (serious sound, minimal features)
Mytek 192 (professional, but requires firewire connection for firmware updates)
NuPrime DAC-10H (promising but no professional reviews and almost no reviews period available)
Oppo HA-1 (well reviewed, lots of features)
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This review put this DAC newcomer on my radar:
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/equipment-menu/559-exogal-comet-digital-to-analog-converter
It also won a DAC shootout that I Greyhound Fan here at AC wrote up on this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133217.msg1412742#msg1412742
I also like the clean look of its faceplate, with the headphone out on the side of the unit.
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1. The Vega uses at least 32 bits for its volume control (it may be more, I cannot remember): with 32 bits you have 8 bits, which equals -48 dB before you drop any bits with a 24 bit file, and with 16 bits, -96 dBs!, before you drop any bits with a 16 bit file. At these attenuation levels there is no drop in resolution: this is a physical fact, and not subject to interpretation. If you think you hear a difference, you are imagining it.
2. If you need more than -48 dB of attenuation to listen at normal levels, then the gain matching of your system is way off, and you are leaving a lot of performance on the table no matter what kind of volume control you use, and you should address your gain matching. At low listening levels, dropping a couple of bits will not matter, because those bits contain very low level details which are below the noise floor anyway when listening at low volumes.
3. If you use a TVC to control volume, and you like the sound, great! But, you must accept that you are liking the sound because of the color added by the TVC: note that the distortion level of even the best transformers is an order of magnitude higher than that of the Auralic Vega. There is nothing wrong with this, and I often like the sound of transformer coupled components, but they are not neutral without sound of their own. And yes, a TVC does do voltage to current conversion, so at high degrees of attenuation it does elevate current drive (a good thing if your amp needs tons of current), but well designed DACs like the Vega already have plenty of current drive.
I get that some people like the sound of a preamp in the chain, and that is fine with me as long as they accept the fact that they like this sound because of the added coloration the preamp brings to the table.
Another thing to consider about digital level control, is virtually all recordings made in the last 20 years use digital level control in mixing: there is not some nefarious inherent "evil" in digital level control, it is well understood and when applied properly it is entirely inaudible.
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As I've already invested in the MacBook Air with the idea of using it for the audio system, I'll bypass the server. And after some more research and soul searching I've decided to scale down my budget to $2000 for a DAC/pre-amp/headphone-amp that could also be used for desktop use. I'm focusing on:
Benchmark DAC-2 HCG (this gold standard for this equipment category)
BMC PureDAC (emotionally satisfying but it's big for desktop use)
Grace m920 (another very professional piece)
Hegel HD 12 (serious sound, minimal features)
Mytek 192 (professional, but requires firewire connection for firmware updates)
NuPrime DAC-10H (promising but no professional reviews and almost no reviews period available)
Oppo HA-1 (well reviewed, lots of features)
Of those I would be a little wary of the Benchmark and the Mytek, as they really lean to the dry analytical side, but with plenty of resolution (if your speakers really go warm, maybe this will be OK). I would lean towards the Hegel and Grace for a more natural presentation.
On DEQX and room correction, etc: sure room correction/EQ can make a big difference if you have a gross problem in that area, but if you do not have a real problem it is just not going to give any advantages. A simple cheap RTA app for your smartphone or tablet will tell you really quickly if you will benefit from somethign like this. Really, it is pretty amazing to have a tool like these for so little money. These things can really help with speaker set up and everyone should have one, they are virtually free!
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This review put this DAC newcomer on my radar:
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/equipment-menu/559-exogal-comet-digital-to-analog-converter
It also won a DAC shootout that I Greyhound Fan here at AC wrote up on this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133217.msg1412742#msg1412742
I also like the clean look of its faceplate, with the headphone out on the side of the unit.
Looks like a really nice unit.
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I think one of the biggest issues about buying a DAC is, "what amp/speakers you are using with it". And even then, you have "room acoustics", which change the sound substantially. I think thats why audiophiles go though so many changes until they find the right set up... And how the decision making process can be confusing sometimes..
Good luck..
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Of those I would be a little wary of the Benchmark and the Mytek, as they really lean to the dry analytical side, but with plenty of resolution (if your speakers really go warm, maybe this will be OK). I would lean towards the Hegel and Grace for a more natural presentation.
On DEQX and room correction, etc: sure room correction/EQ can make a big difference if you have a gross problem in that area, but if you do not have a real problem it is just not going to give any advantages. A simple cheap RTA app for your smartphone or tablet will tell you really quickly if you will benefit from somethign like this. Really, it is pretty amazing to have a tool like these for so little money. These things can really help with speaker set up and everyone should have one, they are virtually free!
Barrows: DEQX is much more than room correction. See Kal Rubenson's Stereophile review below for more details on the DEQX functionality. And you'll find some in the audio hobby such as Robert Greene at Absolute Sound that swear by EQ to correct speaker imperfections and to allow the customer to voice a speaker to his/her preferences. With digital domain EQ, much, if not all, of the sonic penalty of having an EQ in the chain is eliminated.
We may be getting a bit OT, but I have found this very interesting food from thought. And those of you attending shows or near a dealer owe it to yourselves to check out a DEQX demo.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/deqx-premate-da-processordigital-equalizer
Robert Greene (from his DSPeaker review):
Many speakers, even high-end ones, make surprisingly large errors in response in the frequencies above the bass. And even the best can be tweaked to be better, with very few exceptions. (You might want to look at the first figure here, www.regonaudio.com/Digital%20Correction%20for%20Audio%20Part%20III.html showing what just four parametric EQ filters between 2kHz and 8kHz could do for a speaker that was already quite flat. There are very few if any speakers in the analog-only world that are as flat as this in the range that was corrected. And that is only four filters in action: The DualCore has sixteen available.)
This is a different world from purely analog speaker performance, different and better. (The corrections in the link given were actually done earlier with the Z Systems rdp-1 parametric EQ device, but similar results will be obtainable from the DualCore, parametric EQ being a mathematical and uniform process.)
And from Greene's resaudio Yahoo Group, where EQ's ability to improve speaker performance is much discussed (even for speakers that measure very well):
If people are really serious about speakers, there is no choice but to experiment with EQ. It is a weird feature of audio that people act as if the overall frequency response of a speaker is written in stone. Bad speakers are all screwed up. You cannot fix them by EQ or any other way. But there are lots of speakers that are basically fairly well behaved but just need a little help to get rid of a few broad band errors--or maybe not even errors but things you do not like.
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Thanks barrows for your advice on DAC's and digital volume controls. My speakers are rather warm. Due to near-field setup, beaming single driver speakers, and use of transmission line cabinets room effects are minimal but I've been using EQ for baffle step compensation to allow for a more direct connection from mono-blocks to the single drivers. Using my Behringer DEQ2496 I've been able to dial in room/speaker correction. As a former would be SET/single driver fan, limited bass response and SPL (due to the struggle under so few watts) were a constant near obsession so I have a RS SPL meter (with the published corrections).
Thanks roscoeiii for your input. I've heard flat(ter) frequency response and it was a revelation. I'm convinced it's one of the big differences between professional interests (who need accuracy) and audiophile (who want to be entertained).
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I've heard flat(ter) frequency response and it was a revelation. I'm convinced it's one of the big differences between professional interests (who need accuracy) and audiophile (who want to be entertained).
Very well said....
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Thanks barrows for your advice on DAC's and digital volume controls. My speakers are rather warm. Due to near-field setup, beaming single driver speakers, and use of transmission line cabinets room effects are minimal but I've been using EQ for baffle step compensation to allow for a more direct connection from mono-blocks to the single drivers. Using my Behringer DEQ2496 I've been able to dial in room/speaker correction. As a former would be SET/single driver fan, limited bass response and SPL (due to the struggle under so few watts) were a constant near obsession so I have a RS SPL meter (with the published corrections).
Thanks roscoeiii for your input. I've heard flat(ter) frequency response and it was a revelation. I'm convinced it's one of the big differences between professional interests (who need accuracy) and audiophile (who want to be entertained).
Okay --- so if the goal is high fidelity, what is wrong with pursuing accuracy? What's the difference?
If you just want to be entertained, there's always Bose.
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If you are seriously thinking about getting into computer based audio you might look into HAL's MS-3 Music Server and his dspMusik 6x8 DSP crossover and HiRez DAC's. More about the DAC/DSP crossover can be found in this thread.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132170.msg1417240#msg1417240
Complete custom DSP based room correction and EQ is possible. It is essentially a digital Swiss Army knife type product and HAL provides excellent support.
HAL MS-3 Music Server running Windows 8.1 64bit OS $799.00 + s/h
Danville Signal Processing dspMusik DSP crossover custom programmed $1500.00 + s/h
Links to the signal processing specialist mfgr. that HAL is working with to create the DAC/DSP processor.
http://www.danvillesignal.com/high-performance-audio/high-performance-audio
http://www.danvillesignal.com/
I am running a HAL MS-2 PC Music Server that purchased last year with excellent results. HAL's product support has been top notch and the server I bought from him has worked without a hiccup from the get go. It about the same size as a MAC mini and has a built DVD drive.
Scotty
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If you are seriously thinking about getting into computer based audio you might look into HAL's MS-3 Music Server and his dspMusik 6x8 DSP crossover and HiRez DAC's. More about the DAC/DSP crossover can be found in this thread.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132170.msg1417240#msg1417240
Complete custom DSP based room correction and EQ is possible. It is essentially a digital Swiss Army knife type product and HAL provides excellent support.
HAL MS-3 Music Server running Windows 8.1 64bit OS $799.00 + s/h
Danville Signal Processing dspMusik DSP crossover custom programmed $1500.00 + s/h
Links to the signal processing specialist mfgr. that HAL is working with to create the DAC/DSP processor.
http://www.danvillesignal.com/high-performance-audio/high-performance-audio
http://www.danvillesignal.com/
I am running a HAL MS-2 PC Music Server that purchased last year with excellent results. HAL's product support has been top notch and the server I bought from him has worked without a hiccup from the get go. It about the same size as a MAC mini and is has a built DVD drive.
Scotty
+1 - mentioned that and provided a link to the thread in post number 5
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Okay --- so if the goal is high fidelity, what is wrong with pursuing accuracy? What's the difference?
If you just want to be entertained, there's always Bose.
IMO most audiophiles are not honest (or are deceived) about what their sonic goals are. Nothing wrong with deep down simply wanting to be entertained, but most audiophiles don't want to admit to be striving for anything other than accuracy or fidelity, because they'd have to admit not knowing what the original performance actually sounded like. Honestly most music is "artificial" (and only heard via electronics) so there is no absolute standard. Even for live unreinforced music the exact performance or venue can seldom be repeated. So we're left with imagining what the original performance was like, based mostly on experience with other systems, clinging to the systems we prefer and the additions, subtractions, and "enhancements" they exhibited (or maybe just the state of mind we were in at the time).
Studio people are working, not being entertained. They're trying to find and eliminate all of the warts (as the producer sees fit). They work only as long as they get the mix right. So accuracy, even to the point of dryness or forward presentation to aid in the wart hunt is often part of the theme. Of course all this is a recipe for listener fatigue. So I look for reviews of studio gear (including your recommended Grace m920, thanks macrojack!) from guys who mention listening at home to find out what gear they use in the studio that would be both accurate and non-fatiguing.
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Okay Phil, I'll admit to not reading every post in the thread and I certainly missed that one of yours. D'oh! :oops:
Scotty
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Okay Phil, I'll admit to not reading every post in the thread and I certainly missed that one of yours. D'oh! :oops:
Scotty
It's fine - these threads get long and it's hard to follow it sometimes if you have not followed it from the beginning. The OP apparently wants a DAC/Preamp. So my last suggestion was Exasound as you can have a 30 in home trial and I heard their old E20 at the 2013 Capital Audiofest used as a DAC/Preamp and was impressed (almost bought it before deciding on my current DAC which I got used). The Exasound was used in this room -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=84351)
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IMO most audiophiles are not honest (or are deceived) about what their sonic goals are. Nothing wrong with deep down simply wanting to be entertained, but most audiophiles don't want to admit to be striving for anything other than accuracy or fidelity, because they'd have to admit not knowing what the original performance actually sounded like. Honestly most music is "artificial" (and only heard via electronics) so there is no absolute standard. Even for live unreinforced music the exact performance or venue can seldom be repeated. So we're left with imagining what the original performance was like, based mostly on experience with other systems, clinging to the systems we prefer and the additions, subtractions, and "enhancements" they exhibited (or maybe just the state of mind we were in at the time).
Studio people are working, not being entertained. They're trying to find and eliminate all of the warts (as the producer sees fit). They work only as long as they get the mix right. So accuracy, even to the point of dryness or forward presentation to aid in the wart hunt is often part of the theme. Of course all this is a recipe for listener fatigue. So I look for reviews of studio gear (including your recommended Grace m920, thanks macrojack!) from guys who mention listening at home to find out what gear they use in the studio that would be both accurate and non-fatiguing.
Here, here! See my moto under my avatar - "Audio, its all a big fake!" But that's OK, once you accept this fact, then you can learn to love audio all over again.
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Well, of course it is a big fake, duh, audio playback of recorded music can be nothing but a fake by definition.
So, then, what does the individual audiophile desire for their home playback: clearly this can vary from person to person.
One listener might value imaging/soundstaging above all else, another might place a higher value on realistic tonality/timbre, and another might place a higher value on dynamics and/or realistic playback levels.
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Of course ones life is more complicated when one wants all of the above.
Scotty
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Of course ones life is more complicated when one wants all of the above.
Scotty
How true. Reminds me of how forty years ago I was delighted to enjoy a cup of coffee. Now we need a Caramel Macchiato, Venti, Skim, Extra Shot, Extra-Hot, Extra-Whip, Sugar-Free to be happy. Do we really enjoy it more than the good'ol cupa joe? so much so that we're willing to pay $5.00 more for it? Does our never-ending choices of expensive streamers and DACs really make us enjoy music more, or is the music itself that we love?
I have to admit that I enjoyed listening to music just as much on my old turntable and Sansui speakers 40 years ago as I do on my $10,000 rig today. The music was better too. And the funny thing is, I had no interest in upgrading 40 years ago, I was happy. Now that I have the $10,000 rig, I am perpetually looking to upgrade it. Why????
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How true. Reminds me of how forty years ago I was delighted to enjoy a cup of coffee. Now we need a Caramel Macchiato, Venti, Skim, Extra Shot, Extra-Hot, Extra-Whip, Sugar-Free to be happy. Do we really enjoy it more than the good'ol cupa joe? so much so that we're willing to pay $5.00 more for it? Does our never-ending choices of expensive streamers and DACs really make us enjoy music more, or is the music itself that we love?
I have to admit that I enjoyed listening to music just as much on my old turntable and Sansui speakers 40 years ago as I do on my $10,000 rig today. The music was better too. And the funny thing is, I had no interest in upgrading 40 years ago, I was happy. Now that I have the $10,000 rig, I am perpetually looking to upgrade it. Why????
Because you are chasing the dragon. As are we all.
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I had the disease from the time I was 18 and perhaps a genetic predisposition as well, my father had tube gear in the early sixties and built his own speakers back then as well. Although at this time in my life I'm about done, all that remains is acquiring a couple of subs to solve bass response irregularities in the listening room.
Scotty
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I've gone back and forth on several aspects of audio (stereo 40+ years ago) that parallel my life. I blame the disease onset from being a want-to-be geek (back in the 60's audio was totally cool). Maturity (mind and ears), marital status, apartments vs. houses, and income levels have all been reflected in my systems. The biggest anomaly to that trend was my fascination with the purist approach that included SET's that never did fully pan out due to my life long speaker first slant and never being able to find a high efficiency speaker I liked. I'm now a young retiree, with a nice dedicated room, and find that the system is gravitating towards a smaller and simpler theme while hopefully maintaining quality with the realization that my hearing (especially high frequencies) has/will suffer with age.
Everything is in the mind, eh? As I understand pure music lovers, especially musicians, use more imagination and have less need for additional information to recreate the performance. Audiophiles lean more on the crutch of technology. I see it as a right side/left side brain issue. Most audiophiles are analytically oriented (just look at our chosen professions), yet we still seek emotive satisfaction from music, so need more help (please don't take that last bit wrong). Back in college a classical guitarist happened to drop in on our small engineering/business school and volunteered to perform (solo). It was a fantastic experience and afterwards he wanted to meet engineering students to learn what would draw analytical types to music (evidently the whole purpose of his visit). We agreed that the yearning for art is a basic human trait, regardless of our orientations. And how that yearning is expressed, either in music, painting, or other media is very individualistic.
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I am not as much of a fanatic as I used to be with audio or even video. My system has gotten to the point where I'll do something now and then (perhaps next year make a couple of new cables and perhaps tweak the room treatments) and I just enjoy what I have. I do watch the digital end a bit more, probably a bit more for players than DACs. I don't sell things as often as I used to. I rotate things to secondary systems more often. I have enough secondary systems so that part is not that difficult. If something is not used for a bit, I'll either sell it if it is worthwhile or give it away.
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Phil - Resale is a consideration for me. I have found it much more difficult to sell off pieces I no longer use in recent years. This makes me much more circumspect about acquiring anything new (or used for that matter). My program is not built to absorb enormous losses from depreciation or loss of favor in the market place.
There are further problems associated with delving into any product that is not easily qualified by model number and review prowess. I've never been very inclined toward B&W, Krell, McIntosh, etc. type audio staples, so following my heart, instincts or gut usually takes me into areas of negligible resale despite how tremendous they might perform. If you don't have the permission of Robert Harley or John Atkinson, you should not consider any product, right?
For anyone who cares to hear it, this is my advice: Look toward pro products. They tend to have much higher resale and much longer shelf life. They are all business - no magic. And, best of all, they are more accurate as a rule. And they come from companies with traction and staying power so you are far less likely to wake up and find out you own an orphan.
Audiophile world is clownish. Grown ups aren't fooled by the goofiness that keeps audiophiles entertained --- and spending.
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Yeah Scotty: I want it all, but I know I cannot afford that, as the realistic dynamics and levels part (while keeping everything else as well) is where we get into the $200K systems, as the demands on speakers and amps becomes enormous!
I really wear two hats:
1. the analytical guy who consults on product development for Sonore and does DIY, and who sits and critically listens to systems/components.
2. The audiophile/music lover guy who listens to be transported into the world of music and musicians.
1. is work, and 2. is listening for pleasure. When I get really lucky, sometimes work can include pleasure...
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Phil - Resale is a consideration for me. I have found it much more difficult to sell off pieces I no longer use in recent years. This makes me much more circumspect about acquiring anything new (or used for that matter). My program is not built to absorb enormous losses from depreciation or loss of favor in the market place.
I concur totally. That's why I when I buy something a little higher end, it is often used so that if I sell it it is not usually a horrible hit. I view it as a cheap rental fee. If it costs me a few or several dollars a month for a period of time I'm OK with. I had an amp for 10 years that I sold probably 8 months back. I got it used and the cost to me was less than $3/month and I'm fine with that. If I buy something, I also will often consider rotation to another system as a factor. I have owned and gotten burnt when it was time on expensive things to sell and I don't do that any longer. If I end up rotating things to back-up system or system, if and when it reaches the end of its use to me, it is usually quite a while.