AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 19 Oct 2012, 01:24 pm
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Okay, new 8 ohm and 16 ohm production models have arrived.
These have been over a year in development. Nothing on the market like these currently exists. These were designed to be used as mid-bass drivers in open baffle applications and can also be used in sealed or ported cabinets.
These new woofers have a push pull motor design that uses a Neodymium magnet on the pole piece and a ceramic magnet on the top plate. They have Copper shorting rings and an Aluminum phase plug. And phase plug, back plate, and top plate are all Copper anodized. The voice coil is a large 44mm. The cones are paper of coarse and play smoothly into the upper ranges with no break up or ringing. And non-resonant polymer frames of course. There is no better frame.
(http://gr-research.com/mis/M165NQa.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/mis/M165NQb.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/mis/M165NQd.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/mis/M165NQe.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/mis/M165NQf.jpg)
8 ohm version T/S parameters:
Fs - 51.7Hz
Re - 5.49
Qms - 11.07
Qes - .58
Qts - .55
L1 - .12 mH
L2 - .50 mH
Vas - 19.07 liters
Mms - 13.1 grams
Cms - .723 mm/N
Bl - 6.35
Spl - 88.4db
16 ohm version:
Fs - 57.0Hz
Re - 12.70
Qms - 8.96
Qes - .72
Qts - .67
L1 - .17 mH
L2 - .83 mH
Vas - 16.48 liters
Mms - 12.36 grams
Cms - .624 mm/N
Bl - 8.86
Spl - 88.2db
Price is $109 each.
Now I can start working on some new X-Series designs.
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Nice lookin'driver....does this mean the X-Otica will begin?
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Those look really nice.
I still hope you come up with an upgrade for the X-Statiks using these in the midrange. I would definitely be excited for that.
It will be a couple years before my wife would agree to me buying new speakers.
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How do they sound compared to the current drivers you sell?
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Nice lookin'driver....does this mean the X-Otica will begin?
Yep.
How do they sound compared to the current drivers you sell?
The samples sounded great. Now it'time to see what I can do with them and just how good they can be.
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Sorry about the earlier post, I missed the price amoungst the specs,
so just one question.
Are these the speakers you had cut apart you were showing me in August?
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Nice, but at over $100 each, they'll be great for 2-ways and MTM's but a large line source , say 10 per side, that's a prohibative cost. With the skyrocketing cost of neodymium in China, driver mfgrs are going back to other magnet types. Also, eliminating the copper plating of the back and front plates will lower the costs - if I built a LA, I would not care if copper was showing on the rear of the baffle. Just my 1.5 cents observation. What is the Xmax?
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What size are these, sorry if I missed it?
Actually, what size are the M130 and M165 too? Maybe I missed that as well but I can't see it.
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Are these the speakers you had cut apart you were showing me in August?
Those were rejected samples that you saw.
Nice, but at over $100 each, they'll be great for 2-ways and MTM's but a large line source , say 10 per side, that's a prohibative cost.
They are still about half the price of the drivers that they will be compared with from Seas, Scan Speak, etc.
I already have ideal woofers for line sources with the drivers that I had mad for the LS-6's and LS-9's. And they all have cropped frames for close stacking.
And usable X-Max is 4.5 mm.
What size are these, sorry if I missed it?
Actually, what size are the M130 and M165 too? Maybe I missed that as well but I can't see it.
These are 165 mm. The M130 are 130 mm (5,25") and the other M165 drivers are of course 165 mm (6.5").
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Looking good Danny. great price.
charles
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I already have ideal woofers for line sources with the drivers that I had mad for the LS-6's and LS-9's. And they all have cropped frames for close stacking.
I think Hank was thinking out loud about using these new ones in an open baffle array? Would the LS woofers work for that application as well or would you/are you working on something different?
Awesome to see the new drivers done and ready! Are the wave guided OB tweeters ready to go too?
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I think Hank was thinking out loud about using these new ones in an open baffle array? Would the LS woofers work for that application as well or would you/are you working on something different?
The LS woofers aren't designed for open baffles like these new ones. The new M165NQ drivers will work in an open baffle line array but need something else to handle the first octave or two. So it would be a pretty large three-way array.
Are the wave guided OB tweeters ready to go too?
The wave guided tweeters aren't going to be open baffle. And they have been finalized I jut need to get them produced now. They will be made here in the US though so it won't take long.
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Danny,
Do you have any plans to have these made in the 130mm size?
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Danny,
Do you have any plans to have these made in the 130mm size?
Not right now.
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Hi Danny
Here is my current setup with the two 15" Rythmik subs under the AV2's and a center AV2 below the Panny 65VT30 that is extended about 6 feet from the corner wall. The Surround are two AV2's and a single AV1 for the rear.
I would like to go up a level with a change to the front and center speakers and leaving the AV2's for the surrounds and and changing the AV1 to a AV2 for the rear surround.
Will one of your new designs work for this configuration as a MTM for the fronts and something a little different for the center? I have a Parasound HCA-1205A amp and a Marantz AV7005 as a Pre-Pro. Any help for the best bang for the buck is appreciated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69668)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69670)
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Any help for the best bang for the buck is appreciated.
I have some X-Voce's in stock fully assembled. I also have a great deal on matching X-Statik kits.
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Hi Danny,
You had mentioned designing a sealed tower speaker with a mtm configuration and your 12" servo sub, side firing. I am planning on building that type of speaker only visually different and have a couple of questions.
1) When using your new midwoofers in a mtm design, can I put each speaker in its own sealed box and then have the tweeter separate in between?
2) I'm also wondering about having more than two midwoofers for each speaker. Do I need to have an even number of speakers in an mtm design such as one on each side of the tweeter or two on each side of the tweeter? And could I use more than two of your mid woofers with a 12" server sub for this type of design?
What I'm thinking of doing is building a servo sub with a slightly different shape and then mounting the midwoofers and tweeter all separated in their own sealed box's and mounting them close together using some type of designer post supports. Basically something like what I've seen with subwoofer horn configurations. I'm just looking to build something modern looking and outside your typical design without compromising the sound.
Thanks,
Greg
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1) When using your new midwoofers in a mtm design, can I put each speaker in its own sealed box and then have the tweeter separate in between?
Not practical. Each of the 16 ohm woofers need an optimal sealed air space of 1.2 cubic feet. And if they are playing the same range together then there is no reason that they cannot share the same air space.
2) I'm also wondering about having more than two midwoofers for each speaker. Do I need to have an even number of speakers in an mtm design such as one on each side of the tweeter or two on each side of the tweeter? And could I use more than two of your mid woofers with a 12" server sub for this type of design?
You can do a MMTMM with the 8 ohm woofers in a series/parallel configuration. However with the acoustic centers that far apart the crossover point to the tweeter has to get much lower. That can be a real stretch.
If you use an odd number then it shifts the acoustic centers to one end or the other.
If you use two in an MTM configuration and add a servo sub to the mix that will be a really good combo. And that is easy.
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Thanks Danny,
In regards to question #1, Putting being practical aside and realizing they could go in one enclosure, if I build each box 1.2 cubic ft. and make them a "just wide enough square" with the proper depth, would I be compromising sound quality in any way?
Also, is there any problem with building the subwoofer box just wide enough to go around the driver and adjust in the depth?
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In regards to question #1, Putting being practical aside and realizing they could go in one enclosure, if I build each box 1.2 cubic ft. and make them a "just wide enough square" with the proper depth, would I be compromising sound quality in any way?
Sure, no problem, but that box would be about 4 feet deep.
Also, is there any problem with building the subwoofer box just wide enough to go around the driver and adjust in the depth?
Yeah, you can do that.
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I think Hank was thinking out loud about using these new ones in an open baffle array?
Yes I was. Too expensive for a line array. They may compare with Seas and Scan-Speak in performance, given Danny's expertise, but I would never even consider the 2 "S" brands for a line array, given their cost. My point was that at $100 each, DIY-ers, at least me, could not afford Danny's new driver for line arrays. That aside, I'm sure they will make for top-shelf 2-ways and perhaps MTM's. :)
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Yes I was. Too expensive for a line array. They may compare with Seas and Scan-Speak in performance, given Danny's expertise, but I would never even consider the 2 "S" brands for a line array, given their cost. My point was that at $100 each, DIY-ers, at least me, could not afford Danny's new driver for line arrays. That aside, I'm sure they will make for top-shelf 2-ways and perhaps MTM's. :)
Paired with a BG Tweeter, these are going to rock. In my humble opinion, the woofer was the only thing holding back the N kits from being true top tier. I will still say the original woofers were no slouch though, but these should be interesting to see...
Count me in for the first go around if Danny does the tour again.
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OK Danny, now I understand what you meant by "not practical"
I think I remember you saying something about too much surface area around the speaker is a bad thing? I'm wondering if I can make the boxes wider so they're not so deep and still not compromise the sound? The problem is if I build one sealed mtm box and a subwoofer box that's exactly what it's going to look like no matter how I put them together.
One more question, if I built the speaker box's different than what you design the crossover for is that going to be a problem?
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I think I remember you saying something about too much surface area around the speaker is a bad thing?
Yep, that is a bad thing.
One more question, if I built the speaker box's different than what you design the crossover for is that going to be a problem?
If you change the surface area much then it can.
Just a thought for you. Image a MTM upper section and a single side firing servo sub. It would be a little bit like my old A/V-4: http://gr-research.com/av-4.aspx
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Yep, that is a bad thing.
If you change the surface area much then it can.
Just a thought for you. Image a MTM upper section and a single side firing servo sub. It would be a little bit like my old A/V-4: http://gr-research.com/av-4.aspx
Yeah, I understand what your talking about, I was just trying to design something outside the box so to speak.
How wide do you think I could get away with making the face of the box's for the midwoofers?
And Danny, Thank You for answering all of my questions. :thumb:
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Yeah, I understand what your talking about, I was just trying to design something outside the box so to speak.
How wide do you think I could get away with making the face of the box's for the midwoofers?
And Danny, Thank You for answering all of my questions. :thumb:
The wider you make it the bigger the radius you'll need on the front baffle to compensate. So 9" wide and a 1" radius on the sides or 8.5" wide and a 3/4" radius on the sides, etc...
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The wider you make it the bigger the radius you'll need on the front baffle to compensate. So 9" wide and a 1" radius on the sides or 8.5" wide and a 3/4" radius on the sides, etc...
Thanks Danny, I wasn't thinking about the fact that the midwoofers are "sharing" the airspace. Back to the drawing board for me.
Maybe by the time you get your tweeters, and a crossover designed, I will have come up with something that works :scratch:
Or, maybe I will build a tower as you have suggested, I know that will work :thumb:
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Just a thought for you. Image a MTM upper section and a single side firing servo sub. It would be a little bit like my old A/V-4: http://gr-research.com/av-4.aspx
Danny, The N3 has always been on my list to build, but I am very interested in this. Any more information you can provide? Time frame? I assume this would this be a step up over the N3?
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Danny, The N3 has always been on my list to build, but I am very interested in this. Any more information you can provide? Time frame? I assume this would this be a step up over the N3?
That speaker is just something in discussion right now. If I have enough people interested in a powered three way design like that then I can make it happen.
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they certainly look beautiful.
they be awesome in a black cabinet, especially if the cab had copper accents.
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they certainly look beautiful.
they be awesome in a black cabinet, especially if the cab had copper accents.
The color that would look great with the new drivers is a high gloss black with metallic copper speckles.
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How about a MTM OB kit that I can stack on my dual 12" servos?
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Danny, this might be a dumb question but. . .
Regarding the new tweeters, are the cutout dimensions for them the same as any of your current tweeters (GR/Peerless/Neo)? Just asking out loud as a thought to folks who could reuse an existing cabinet to upgrade to a kit using the new drivers, considering (unless I'm mistaken) the new woofer matches dimensionally with the M165?
Trismos, I think you will be in luck, as (again) if I'm remembering right, one of the kits Danny had mentioned was one using the new drivers with a stack of three 8" servo OB subs; this would give you a "kit" of the top section complete that you could then add to your existing subs instead of using the 8" servos?
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Trismos, I think you will be in luck, as (again) if I'm remembering right, one of the kits Danny had mentioned was one using the new drivers with a stack of three 8" servo OB subs; this would give you a "kit" of the top section complete that you could then add to your existing subs instead of using the 8" servos?
Works for me!!
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Danny, this might be a dumb question but. . .
Regarding the new tweeters, are the cutout dimensions for them the same as any of your current tweeters (GR/Peerless/Neo)? Just asking out loud as a thought to folks who could reuse an existing cabinet to upgrade to a kit using the new drivers, considering (unless I'm mistaken) the new woofer matches dimensionally with the M165?
Trismos, I think you will be in luck, as (again) if I'm remembering right, one of the kits Danny had mentioned was one using the new drivers with a stack of three 8" servo OB subs; this would give you a "kit" of the top section complete that you could then add to your existing subs instead of using the 8" servos?
The tweeters used in the X-Otica and X-Optima use a wave guide so they are much bigger in diameter.
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Hey Danny, can you tell us what are the first kits your are going to make up and what the time frame is?
I am ready for new high efficiency speakers and I realize what you have in mind might not work for my application but I would like to know so I can make a decision.
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Hey Danny, can you tell us what are the first kits your are going to make up and what the time frame is?
I am ready for new high efficiency speakers and I realize what you have in mind might not work for my application but I would like to know so I can make a decision.
X-Otica and X-Optima are first up. I have to finalize some wave guide production still for both of those and custom servo amps for the 8" servo subs might not be here until the first of the year. So X-Optima might be next. They won't have high sensitivity though. And the X-Otica will have about 91db sensitivity.
I still have Super-V's kits in stock. :D
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Hi Danny
Here is my current setup with the two 15" Rythmik subs under the AV2's and a center AV2 below the Panny 65VT30 that is extended about 6 feet from the corner wall. The Surround are two AV2's and a single AV1 for the rear.
I would like to go up a level with a change to the front and center speakers and leaving the AV2's for the surrounds and and changing the AV1 to a AV2 for the rear surround.
Will one of your new designs work for this configuration as a MTM for the fronts and something a little different for the center? I have a Parasound HCA-1205A amp and a Marantz AV7005 as a Pre-Pro. Any help for the best bang for the buck is appreciated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69668)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69670)
Danny
One option was a pair of X-Statik kits and and a X-Voce for the center.
The front of the front AV-2"s are already three feet from the wall.
Could I combine a X-Voce and have a modified design of your X-Otica , X-Optima or X-Pro to work with the two Rythmik sub's? The front of the center AV-2 is 4' from the corner at this time.
I would still want to mount them on top of the sub's but I have 4 attach points to make a isolated mount that could move the front of the baffle plate of the new speakers up to 1' in front of the sub cabinet.
The tweeters would need to be at the same height as current ones in the AV-2's but the servo drivers of the new X model could be mounted on top instead of on the bottom if that would work.
Would something like this work and would the new front's match tonally with the X-Voce as the center?
Just thinking of all the options as I do not mind building to go up a few notches from the AV-2's but still have it blend well with the AV-2's I still will be using as the surround speakers.
The other option are two N3's and a N3s? They would be mounted the same as the current AV-2's
With the electronics I am using now what do you feel would be the the best option given the my room and the location of the speakers. I have plenty of height so that would not be a problem. The SPL would have to match or be slightly higher that the AV-2's though.
I currently have the Parasound at 140 watts RMS at 8 ohms driving them.
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Could I combine a X-Voce and have a modified design of your X-Otica , X-Optima or X-Pro to work with the two Rythmik sub's? The front of the center AV-2 is 4' from the corner at this time.
Those X Series models have not been built yet.
Would something like this work and would the new front's match tonally with the X-Voce as the center?
If you are thinking of just using an open baffle section over your subs and letting your subs play up to the open baffle drivers then no, that will not work. Your subs will never play that high.
And again the best performance will be had if you can get those subs away from your main speakers.
The other option are two N3's and a N3s? They would be mounted the same as the current AV-2's
That's a good plan also to go with N3's, but again they will sound much better if moved away from the subs. And the full floor standing version of the N3 plays down much lower making integration with the subs much easier.
With the electronics I am using now what do you feel would be the the best option given the my room and the location of the speakers. I have plenty of height so that would not be a problem. The SPL would have to match or be slightly higher that the AV-2's though.
For the price point that you told me that you wanted to stay under, I would still recommend X-Statik's and a X-Voce for your room.
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Thanks Danny
That helps a lot with what I want to do in the near future.
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And again the best performance will be had if you can get those subs away from your main speakers.
Why is that? Phasing?
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Why is that? Phasing?
I too am very interested in knowing why.
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Subs have a lot of moving forces. Especially a large diameter sub like this one that is on carpet and is not using floor spikes. The amount of vibration that is transmitted into whatever is setting on the subs is considerable. And if that is one of the Rythmik cabinets then it is 3/4" thick with a cross brace. It is not a real solid cabinet and there are additional panel resonances from the box itself.
All of that force and resonances being transmitted into the mains speakers is not good. They really should be separated.
With the main speakers in their own box and away from the subs there should be a considerable amount of increased clarity. Imaging will also improve.
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Danny, thanks!
Also I looked but I didn't see it, could be I missed it, but what would you say is the usable frequency range of your new 6.5" drivers in a sealed enclosure?
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Danny, how much less would your new driver cost without all that coppler plating?
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Danny, thanks!
Also I looked but I didn't see it, could be I missed it, but what would you say is the usable frequency range of your new 6.5" drivers in a sealed enclosure?
For the 8 ohm woofer the optimal sealed is .675 cubic feet with a -3db at 71Hz. Optimal ported is 1.29 cubic feet with a -3db at 34.6Hz.
For the 16 ohm woofers in pairs the optimal sealed is 2.5 cubic feet with a -3db at 65.6Hz. Optimal ported is 3.2 cubic feet with a -3db at 31.5Hz.
Danny, how much less would your new driver cost without all that coppler plating?
I need the Copper plating on the Aluminum phase plug. It is not as important in the top and back plates. If it were dropped there then it would only save a few bucks. Not a big deal. The real hit to the price is the Neodymium magnet on the pole piece. Neo is pretty high now.
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For the 8 ohm woofer the optimal sealed is .675 cubic feet with a -3db at 71Hz. Optimal ported is 1.29 cubic feet with a -3db at 34.6Hz.
For the 16 ohm woofers in pairs the optimal sealed is 2.5 cubic feet with a -3db at 65.6Hz. Optimal ported is 3.2 cubic feet with a -3db at 31.5Hz.
Great! And I take it there's no problem mating the 8ohm with a Neo3 tweet.
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Great! And I take it there's no problem mating the 8ohm with a Neo3 tweet.
There wouldn't be any problem in doing that.
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Hey, Danny, a few bucks is a 'few bucks'.
I know about the neodymium situation. BUT, relief is in site: New mines, and the China economy slowdown. This from 9/20 Star.com:
"In August, China announced new export quotas on rare earth elements (REE), which increased the yearly figure by 2.7 percent."
"This is the first time in five years that the REE quota has increased and is the highest in three years, which is seen as a slight negative as excess supply would put pressure on prices," analyst Carolyn Dennis of Toronto-based Dundee Capital Markets said in a note to clients.
NEW MINES
The spike in prices prompted a flurry of new mining projects and the two most advanced are due to come on stream this year, boosting global supplies of rare earths.
Molycorp, the biggest rare earth producer outside China, has reopened the Mountain Pass mine in California and is due to boost output to 19,050 tonnes a year in the fourth quarter from 3,516 tonnes last year.
Lynas is also due to fire up an $800 million rare earths plant in Malaysia as early as October after receiving a temporary operating licence. The plant would supply about 11,000 tonnes in its first year, eventually rising to 22,000 tonnes."
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Subs have a lot of moving forces. Especially a large diameter sub like this one that is on carpet and is not using floor spikes. The amount of vibration that is transmitted into whatever is setting on the subs is considerable. And if that is one of the Rythmik cabinets then it is 3/4" thick with a cross brace. It is not a real solid cabinet and there are additional panel resonances from the box itself.
All of that force and resonances being transmitted into the mains speakers is not good. They really should be separated.
With the main speakers in their own box and away from the subs there should be a considerable amount of increased clarity. Imaging will also improve.
Hi Danny
Just a few last questions.
My sub cabinets do have spikes that go to the subfloor.
My cabinets are 3/4" Baltic Birch with a 1/2" thick of MDF glued on top.
The custom mount I was talking about would have isolation dampers installed to prevent the vibration going to the speakers above the subs.
Was this the main reason for moving the subs and do you feel Isolation dampers would not work?
With these factors and having three AV2's for the side and rear surrounds that I want to keep What will blend and sound the best overall.
Two N3's and a N3s or the X-Statik & X-Voce Both will have the Sonicap upgrade.
Last question
What difference in sound compared to the AV-2's that also have the Sonicaps and Bypass caps installed ? I mean is it night or day or is it more subtle?
I just do not want to go to the expense and find out there is very little difference in what I have now.
I wish I had more alternatives but I only have so much room and the subs seem to have the best response with the least peaks and valleys from where I am sitting now. The are crossed at 80 Hz at this time. I do a lot of HT so the this does not bottom the woofers on some peaks.
I also have time if needed to wait for the X-Pro but you know better than I if it will work for this arrangement.
Thanks for being patient with me. I have the budget for any of the three so this will be the deciding factor.
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The custom mount I was talking about would have isolation dampers installed to prevent the vibration going to the speakers above the subs.
Was this the main reason for moving the subs and do you feel Isolation dampers would not work?
All this concern over vibration doesn't seem to matter for, say, the V-1
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Isolation devices like floor spikes or spikes for the A/V-2's to sit on work great, but my concern for the A/V-2's are that they are still sitting on the top panel of a sub woofer. So even if you isolate the weight of the A/V-2 to only four spikes points, they are still sitting on a large panel that will likely have some resonance.
You may have done a great job of minimizing the effect and it may sound fine to you. I don't know. Experimenting with then sitting just to the inside of the subs on some heavy stands will tell you if there really is or is not an problem.
Two N3's and a N3s or the X-Statik & X-Voce Both will have the Sonicap upgrade.
You can't go wrong with either.
The tweeter used in the N series kits have an edge in resolution, but the open baffle designs have an edge in mid-range transparency. N3's play lower and will allow you to lower the crossover point to 35 or 40Hz. The X-Statik's were designed to be used with subs and a crossover point in the 50 to 55Hz range.
Note also that all open baffle speakers need to be at least 3 feet out from the wall and more is better.
What difference in sound compared to the AV-2's that also have the Sonicaps and Bypass caps installed ? I mean is it night or day or is it more subtle?
Both are steps up in the area's mentioned above. Both have better tweeters and you will get cleaner highs in both of them.
All this concern over vibration doesn't seem to matter for, say, the V-1
The V-1 has no enclosure like his sealed sub does. It is an open baffle design. Even still, spiking it to the floor or not makes a notable difference.
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Well I removed the AV-2's from the subs and placed them back on the stands I made when I built the speakers. I listened to the same pieces that I had listened to before and I could not believe the difference. Before I used the 1/4" rods the anchor the AV-2's to subs as I tried Spikes but the AV-2's would rattle on the spikes during some low passages so I firmly anchored them with the 1/4" bolts with brass tubing to make it look finished.
Danny! you were right and I just cannot believe what that little difference makes.
After this discussion I am planning on a set of X-Statik's with upgraded crossover and a X-voce with the same upgraded crossover. They will be in the same location as the AV-2's in the picture below but the left speaker will be move forward so the front baffle will be 3' from the wall at its closest point.
What do you think?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=70234)
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Sounds like a good plan. :thumb:
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I am planning on a set of X-Statik's with upgraded crossover and a X-voce with the same upgraded crossover.
If you have the room, you will not be disappointing. One of my favorite speakers for the money. Congrats :thumb:
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Danny
Can your new 16mm driver be used in a MTM configuration both sealed for a center channel and TM for a tower using the Neo3 for the tweeter?
Do you have any plans for that in the near future?
Do you think in this arrangement it might sound better and have a higher SPL than the N3 you have now?
How much larger would the enclosures need to be?
I am looking at all the possibilitys before pulling the trigger. Thanks :)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=70853)
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Can your new 16mm driver be used in a MTM configuration both sealed for a center channel and TM for a tower using the Neo3 for the tweeter?
That center channel box would be too huge for a pair of the 16 ohmers in sealed box. It would have to be about 2.4 cubic feet.
Do you have any plans for that in the near future?
No. I already have really good woofers to use with the Neo 3 tweeter.
Do you think in this arrangement it might sound better and have a higher SPL than the N3 you have now?
SPL levels would be about the same. Sound better, maybe, maybe not. It would have to be a lot bigger though. That wouldn't sell too well.
How much larger would the enclosures need to be?
A pair of the 16 ohm woofer in a optimal ported box would be about 3.2 cubic feet.
I think I will stick to the applications that they were designed for in open baffles.
The 8 ohm version has a slightly lower Qts and will work well in a small ported tower ported or sealed box design.
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Thanks Danny
For me it is a big decision as these probably will be the last pair I make.
I really appreciate tell me the difference's between the X-Statik & X-voce combo or the N3 & N3s combo.
I think the new X series will be great but as you explained might not be for me needing a center channel that these were not designed for.
It still is a tough decision not be able to hear either one but these are the main advantages between the two.
X-Statik = More open and spacious midrange but not quite as smooth and detailed at the high end.
N3 = Solid midrange and more natural and detailed high end.
My hearing probably only goes up to 12-13K but the main problem with the AV-2's was missing the detail and smoothness that I heard on speakers like the B&W 802 and 805 with their Diamond tweeter.
When listening to music I did not hear the details I heard on the B&W I listened to and I could listen to many songs without wanting to turn it off.
Your gracious offer on the X-statik parts was also in the mix but needing to put the NoRez in, it just was easier just to build the cabinet.
Having said all that it seems that building the N3 and N3S with Sonicaps, Sonicap Platinum Bypass on the tweeter circuit, Sonicap Gen II for the woofer circuit, Stock wiring and stock Electra tube connectors will overall sound a little better than the X-Statik with upgrades. Both will blend well with my subs so that was not an issue.
Can you add anything to my conclusion?
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My hearing probably only goes up to 15K but the main problem with the AV-2's was missing the detail and smoothness that I heard on speakers like the B&W 802 and 805 with their Diamond tweeter.
When listening to music I did not hear the details I heard on the B&W I listened to and I could listen to many songs without wanting to turn it off.
Actually the A/V-2's that you have with Sonicaps will easily be smoother and have more detail in the top end than any of the B&W products. The capacitors used in the B&W speakers alone will smear detail levels. And the brightness of the metal dome is often quite fatiguing and hard to listen to. Some may even have an elevated or tipped up top end response.
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Thanks for all your help Danny. I have made my final decision. Be calling you soon.
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Well, I almost made my final decision!!
It is a toss up between these two.
OB-7 kit with NoRez and a N3s center with NoRez, Sonicap & Mills resistors.
N3 and N3s with NoRez, Sonicap & Mills resistors and Platinum caps.
I was able to move the left sub a little away from the left speaker. This is about where the new OB-7 or N3's would have to be. Left front baffle is 3'1" away and Right front baffle is 4'4"away from back wall.
Three OB-7's was over the max budget so that left these choices that I thought were better than the X-Statik & X-Voce combo.
Since most of the content is voice on the center channel I thought the N3s would work well, especially in the location where it is now.
With these parameters what do you think will work best?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=70982)
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If high SPLs are of importance, then the OB-7 is a no-brainer. In a earlier post you liked the idea of the midrange of the X-Statik and the pros of the Neo tweeter in the N3.
It sounds like the OB-7 is the best of both worlds.
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persisting1
Talking with Danny He also really liked the midrange of the X-Statik over the N3.
One other possibility would be the following in the mix.
OB-7 kit with NoRez and a LS-C center. Given the location where it will be placed would this combo work the best? Thes was what Nick did.
OB-7 kit with NoRez and a N3s center with NoRez, Sonicap & Mills resistors.
N3 and N3s with NoRez, Sonicap & Mills resistors and Platinum caps.
I have around $1600 to spend on the kits for three speakers so chime in if you have any better ideas for my application.
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Ed VB -- Consider focusing (at least for now) on getting the best front speakers you can afford. That means getting the OB-7's. You can always acquire a center channel later. With the remainder of your budget, upgrade the Parasound amp and you should achieve a much better sonic improvement vs. buying kits for three speakers, especially if you use your fronts and Parasound amp for two-channel listening.
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Early B.
A lot of my listening is also BluRay concerts so the center is important.
I only have one chance to build them all at once with the people I work with so I need to get all three at one time.
The only other option is the OB-7's and OB-7+ turned sideways with the Sub section removed.
I just wondered in my location for the center would put it too close to the corner walls
I double checked so the prices of both will cost about the same and slightly above the budget I had allotted.
So here is my chance to get my final set and have no regrets after building them.
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Ed
All of the system combination you mention will certainly provide excellent sound quality and performance. If you want a system that provides the best midrange performance, I tend to agree with Danny that a pair of performance upgraded ( Sonicaps, Mills, No-Rez) X-Statics with a X-VOCE or X-CS Encore center channel might be the best choice for you and would save you some money too. I haven't heard the X-Staics or the X-VOCE / X-CS, but based on the midrange performance of my upgraded X-LS Encores their midrange sound be excellent. Also, with the larger woofers, I would think they should sound bigger too. Just my opinion.
It is a tough decision, but I think you will be happy with any of the systems you are considering.
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Thanks Ron
I had a good night thinking about all the configurations, cost and placement in my living room.
The two lowest cost are still the N3 & N3s and X-Statik & X-Voce.
With all the upgrades they are almost identical in price.
The next level would be about $400 more!
Since I have to build the X-statik's and modify the X-Voce with No-Rez, Sonicaps and remove and install new veneer to match the X-Statik the N3 is looking more favorable.
The choice between the Neo3 and Peerless tweeter also makes the N3 is looking more favorable.
And last is the construction of the cabinets that makes the N3 a little easier to make.
While the X-Statik might have a better midrange the overall response from reading almost every post on this forum between the two seem to indicate that for the same cost the N3 & N3s wins out in cost and for the location I will be putting them in. The left speaker max from the wall is 3 feet and the X-Voce is located in the corner so it would be less the 3 feet from the walls.
The placement of my Rythmik subs also had to be added to the equation.
For the same cost I think I will stick with the N3 & N3s as my final choice.
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The N3 TL's and N3S center is an excellent choice Ed. Should work really well in your listening room and provide many years of listening enjoyment. Please post pictures when you complete your system for all of us to see as well as your listening impressions.
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I would be temped to press Danny for a time frame on the new driver designs before making a decision if i were you. :wink:
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Yep.
The samples sounded great. Now it'time to see what I can do with them and just how good they can be.
Danny, have you been able to start anything on the X-Otica or is it still a ways off?
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Nick77
I talked to Danny about them but they would be out of my price range by the time I got done.
I think the X-Otica or X-Optima would be super but with the subs I have and location I think the N3 & N3s combination with all upgrades will work out the best for me.
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Have to tell you that I replaced a B&W setup with and N3S (center) and N3 TLs (mains) with the upgrades/no-rez and they are absolutely amazing. Frankly, the first pair of XLS-Encores blew away my B&Ws so I knew I was headed in the right direction with the N3 setup and I was right....go for it
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Have to tell you that I replaced a B&W setup with and N3S (center) and N3 TLs (mains) with the upgrades/no-rez and they are absolutely amazing. Frankly, the first pair of XLS-Encores blew away my B&Ws so I knew I was headed in the right direction with the N3 setup and I was right....go for it
Which model B&Ws did you replace?
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I had B&W 805 matrix speakers and the X-LS and N2X easily beat them in sound quality.
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The X-LS Encores blew my 10-year old CDM 1SE Bookshelf speakers away, so when I finished my N3s one of my "snobby" :) B&W friends brought over his 804 Diamonds (yeah he was that skeptical that we carted them over) and frankly, there was really not much of a comparison. The B&Ws sounded pretty bright especially next to the N3 TLs, and the mids and lows aren't really even in the same league. They do look pretty though.
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I just love AC!
Going through all the possibility's and talking with some forum members that had N3's and OB7's and OB subs ,I hear the good and bad on what and what not worked in their listening environment. Talking to Danny clarified the designs I was looking at.
The way my room is laid out it was a tossup between OB or a N3 depending how much I was willing to pull the speakers from the wall and adding room treatments.
The low cost approach was the the X-Statik's and X-Voce. Danny's recommendation.
His order was the Super V followed by the OB7's and then the N3 or X-Statik's depending on my budget.
Talking with some of the members here was having the flexibility in getting OB to work in their rooms.
After listening to all the advice I am going to wait until Danny gets to test the X-Otica.
It seems that this will be the best solution for my room as I will have the flexibility to tune the speaker to the servo subs I have, and also not load the room as with the other configurations.
The price point will hopefully be between the OB7's and Super V.
Soundwise I hope the same.
I was able to raise my budget and hopefully before Summer I will have my last set of speakers.
Any comments are welcome.
Thank all for you help.
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I had B&W 805 matrix speakers and the X-LS and N2X easily beat them in sound quality.
Thanks for the reply! :thumb:
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Danny, Can I get the first set of X-Otica's when the kit is available?
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I know what the x-omni and the x-statik look like, but what does the x-otica look like, a picture anyone?
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This was a design pic from way back when...not sure how much will be changed -
http://av123.wetpaint.com/page/x-otica
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Danny, Can I get the first set of X-Otica's when the kit is available?
Yes.
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This was a design pic from way back when...not sure how much will be changed -
http://av123.wetpaint.com/page/x-otica
That's funny...
Really though. Imagine this design (three servo 8's) with an MTM above it using my new drivers and tweeter in a wave guide.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111941.msg1159599#msg1159599
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This was a design pic from way back when...not sure how much will be changed -
http://av123.wetpaint.com/page/x-otica
Three servos? Wow, could be something amazing.
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Thanks Chip! Now that is a cool looking speaker.
Danny, is this going to look anything like the new speaker and since it's mostly open baffle will it still need to be 3' from the front wall?
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Thanks Chip! Now that is a cool looking speaker.
Danny, is this going to look anything like the new speaker and since it's mostly open baffle will it still need to be 3' from the front wall?
All open baffle speakers need to be at least three feet out from a wall.
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That's funny...
Really though. Imagine this design (three servo 8's) with an MTM above it using my new drivers and tweeter in a wave guide.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111941.msg1159599#msg1159599
New drivers for the MTM? As in Neo 10? :drool:
So how far along are the X-Otica's in the design phase? Any thoretical measurements? REAL measurements? :thumb:
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New drivers for the MTM? As in Neo 10? :drool:
So how far along are the X-Otica's in the design phase? Any thoretical measurements? REAL measurements? :thumb:
No, the 6.5" woofers on page one that were designed for open baffles.
I am still working out details on who will make the wave guides. And I am waiting on the new servo amps for the 8" woofers.
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Yes.
OK done. I am sure we can come up with the center to match the timbre by the time the kit ships.
With the flexibility of the subs and X-Otica's servo amps I should be able to dial it in with the least amount of room treaments needed. Am I correct on this?
It also seems I will be able to control the level of SPL so the system will be balanced between Music and HT once it is adjusted.
Jon, will be close enough so hopefully we can have a shootout between the X-Otica and his full range driver with the servo subs. That would be fun.
Now the hard part is the wait but I can stay busy till then.
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These drivers can now be order right from our web site: http://gr-research.com/drivers.aspx
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Can't wait to see the new designs with these, Danny!
:thumb:
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Can't wait to see the new designs with these, Danny!
:thumb:
Me too...
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It would be simple to build too. Am I right, no boxes to be built?
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hey Danny, is the LS9 and LS Center available with these drivers? they look so awesome.
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hey Danny, is the LS9 and LS Center available with these drivers? they look so awesome.
No, these drivers would not be suitable for those applications.
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So is the M130/165 on par with these new drivers, open baffle applicability aside?
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So is the M130/165 on par with these new drivers, open baffle applicability aside?
Like all of our drivers these new drivers were designed for a specific application. And in this case to be the best drivers ever designed for those applications (open baffle). Comparing them to other drivers used in other applications wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison.
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Danny:
What are the design elements that make a driver especially suited for OB?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas!
Larry
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Danny:
What are the design elements that make a driver especially suited for OB?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas!
Larry
Electrical and mechanical parameters are very different for open baffle designs.
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Can you be a bit more specific? :)
Thanks.
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M165 std-8 std-16 nq-8 nq-16 units
FS 38.80 37.70 51.70 57.00 Hz
RE 5.30 11.40 5.49 12.70 Ohms
Qms 2.23 2.16 11.07 8.96
Qts 0.39 0.47 0.55 0.67
Qes 0.48 0.59 0.58 0.72
Xmax 3.30 3.30 5.00 5.00 mm
L (1k) 0.49 0.86 0.50 0.83 mH
L (10k) 0.23 0.40 0.12 0.17 mH
Vas 49.28 53.46 19.07 16.48 Liter
Ms 9.03 8.75 13.10 12.36 grams
Cms 1.88 2.04 0.72 0.62 mm/newton
Bl 5.50 6.40 6.35 8.86 Telsa-M
SPL 89.90 88.90 88.40 88.60 db
Area 137.07 137.07 137.07 137.07 Cm\2
Numb3rs m0stly
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Thanks!! :thumb: