[Tyson]

You can’t be an honest and true Klipsch owner unless you’re pissing off the neighbors! 

Tyson/Danny- can you explain why a redo of the crossover was necessary? If it’s going to be in the video coming up next week I’ll look for it. I think for my speakers I’m going to try and replace the wiring and caps and see how that goes.

It raised the impedance a bit and smoothed it out.  And testing it on my 300b amp today bears it out - the amp is now happier feeding the Forte's from the 8ohm tap instead of the 4ohm tap I used to use.  Phase response is also somewhat better, and the midwoofer takes a bit more of the midrange information now and the tweeter plays a bit lower.  But the biggest thing I hear is that the moderate spittyness from the 1khz peak is gone.  I mean, the Forte's were smooth before, but now they are smooooooooootttthhhhhhh.  I'm listening to some Beethoven violin/piano sonatas right now and hearing the violin in particular is just a joy. 

Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!

[Tyson]

Nice work Tyson (and of course Danny),
Just out of curiosity, do you see the biggest difference in your reference speakers being the dispersion pattern?

I would imagine the Klipsch compression drivers are fast. But horns you know. They just push the sound into the room quite differently. More like a wide beam that a diffuse figure 8 the the serenity 7’s produce.

I’m thinking the Forte III’s are more of a different flavor now with the mods than your reference. Maybe Steak vs Chicken.  I like both when spiced and cooked with a bit of flair. Suppose it depends on the mood.

I imagine AC/DC through the Forte’s might best the mighty 7’s but Allison Krause might fall behind in enjoyment do the advanced soundstage of your OB reference.

Thoughts on that?

Re: how the Forte and the Super 7s differ in their presentation, I think you're pretty close.  The Klipsch present the information in such a way that it feels very live.  Like you are at a musical performance with the best seats in the house.  The Super 7s on the other hand make it seem like you've been transported to the recording session, or more accurately, like the performers (and their acoustic space) have been transported to your living room.  I call the Super 7s my 'time machines' because they let me go back in time and witness the original even in a way that no other speaker can (that I've heard). 

After modding the Forte's, they are definitely more detailed than the stock version.  The Super 7s are way more holographic and just microscopes for everything on the recording.  The modded Forte's aren't quite at that level (especially in the top octave), but they are more punchy, giving the music a very nice "boogie factor" that is really appealing, across a variety of music styles. 

[Rocket_Ronny]

Hi Tyson.

You mentioned you felt the Super V was too rough and that the P Audio driver did not match the bass. Can you elaborate more on what you mean and how the Serenity was better that way.

Myself, I am not bothered by the integration. I posted samples of some songs from the Super V in my room. For me, it's draw dropping at times. Here is the sample link.
 
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167098.msg1774033#new

Rocket Ronny

[Tyson]

Hi Tyson.

You mentioned you felt the Super V was too rough and that the P Audio driver did not match the bass. Can you elaborate more on what you mean and how the Serenity was better that way.

Myself, I am not bothered by the integration. I posted samples of some songs from the Super V in my room. For me, it's draw dropping at times. Here is the sample link.
 
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167098.msg1774033#new

Rocket Ronny

I've heard that speaker a bunch.  All I can say is that I'm really sensitive to any unevenness in the 900 to 3khz range.  Other people might not be, which would make the Super V a fine choice.  But the reason I like the Super 7 so much is because it's absolutely perfect transitioning from the Neo10 to the Neo3 and each driver is incredibly linear on it's own.  So you end up with silky smooth and hyper detailed, the best of both worlds, with the Super 7. 

[Jaytor]

Hi Tyson -

Did you have a chance to listen to Danny's new Line Force? If so, how does this compare with your Super-7's?

Thanks,
Jay

[Tyson]

Hi Tyson -

Did you have a chance to listen to Danny's new Line Force? If so, how does this compare with your Super-7's?

Thanks,
Jay

Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.

[Rocket_Ronny]

Thanks for sharing about the Super V. That issue does not bother me. This illustrates the need to have some sort of digital e.q. In a system. People will keep speakers a lot longer. Myself I use the e.q. in I-Tunes.

I think the Super V is a great speaker that straddles your Klipsch and the Serenities. 

Would you say the Line Force is as detailed and Transparent as the best electrostatics you have heard?

Rocket Ronny

[Tyson]

Would you say the Line Force is as detailed and Transparent as the best electrostatics you have heard?

Rocket Ronny

Better.

[Rocket_Ronny]

Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny

[ebag4]

Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny

2 ribbons vs 22 individual drivers...  makes sense to me.

Happy new year to all!!

Best
Ed

[Tyson]

Find that hard to believe due to the higher mass of the drivers. But will take your word on it. I can see them being way more dynamic for sure, and let’s not even talk efficiency, no contest at 98 dB. Thanks

Rocket Ronny

I can only report what I heard.

[maty]

Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!

The issue of core inductors is well known and the explanation too, so no surprise.

As for the capacitors, it is understandable that the use of electrolytics is avoided, especially at high frequencies (tweeter). Now, it is assumed that others should not cause so many differences, and more one bypass (Miflex KPCU-01) with the other stock cap!!!

The resistors, it is assumed that the ceramics are of low inductance, however their change by Mills MRA also generates a very appreciable difference. Either they are very bad, the usual ones are very bad or ... I can hardly believe that the lowest thermal noise and inductance are the cause of the big difference. Maybe it changes the harmonic profile too.

When you put the bypass caps tell us what differences you appreciate.

And the binding pots too. Do you keep the originals and thus be able to compare quickly?

[maty]

Writing about inductors...

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/346817-10f-rs225-fast-speaker-xo-pcb-gb-post6028018.html

by xrk971

I just re-ran the Xsim calculation of the frequency response with a 14ga flat copper foil 4mH Jantzen inductor with 0.6ohm DCR vs the 1.26ohm DCR of the 18ga wire inductor and see a mild improvement in the bass response - maybe 0.5dB at 50hz. It doesn't hurt. Otherwise, the phase and frequency response elsewhere comes out the same.

Subjectively, I would imagine a lower DCR will make the woofer sound more immediate and direct.

[RonP]

Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt 

Too many toys I see that I want. 

[ntjetsmoke]

Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt 

Too many toys I see that I want. 

I second that and feel the pain.

[Tomy2Tone]

Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.

Can’t wait to see what you have to say about all those speakers in Danny’s room. The one that tempts me the most to buy and try is the x-otica mtm so I’m curious to know what you think.

[fredgarvin]

It raised the impedance a bit and smoothed it out.  And testing it on my 300b amp today bears it out - the amp is now happier feeding the Forte's from the 8ohm tap instead of the 4ohm tap I used to use.  Phase response is also somewhat better, and the midwoofer takes a bit more of the midrange information now and the tweeter plays a bit lower.  But the biggest thing I hear is that the moderate spittyness from the 1khz peak is gone.  I mean, the Forte's were smooth before, but now they are smooooooooootttthhhhhhh.  I'm listening to some Beethoven violin/piano sonatas right now and hearing the violin in particular is just a joy. 

Plus, we were going to replace ALL the parts anyway because the stock inductors are even worse than the stock caps, and the stock resistors are the worst of all the parts!

This is similar effect derived from the ALK designed XO for the Forte, not sure about the III, better phase response and impedance smoothing brings better performance from an amp. Not too much dough for a noticeable improvement. Good for you. I love my Quartets, they wooed me away from planars.

[Tyson]

Tyson,

your pics from Danny's place just make my wallet hurt 

Too many toys I see that I want. 

Can’t wait to see what you have to say about all those speakers in Danny’s room. The one that tempts me the most to buy and try is the x-otica mtm so I’m curious to know what you think.

Well it turns out I have the day off today (company shutdown for the holidays), so I'll try to get everything written up today.  No one's done what I would call a proper review of many of these speakers, so that's what I'm going to do.  Each speaker will get an individual review where I compare it to all the other GR Research designs I've heard (including my Super 7s), and more generally other speakers in the same price/size class.  I can say this - some of the speakers really surprised me.  I'll give full details in the reviews.

[SlushPuppy]

Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way.  That is an astonishingly great speaker. 

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week.  It might be a few days before I get to it though.

Tyson,

Cool thread. Looking forward to the reviews!

[Tyson]

On thing I've noticed since putting the Forte's in my room - since they go down to 40hz strong now, it excites a room mode that it didn't before.  So I'm getting too much bass in the 40-60hz range.  Of course that's covered by the passive radiator on the back.  Solution?  Use something like silly putty and mass load the passive radiator so it's tuned a bit lower.  I added about a golfball size worth of putty and it shifted energy away from the 40-60hz range and down toward the 30hz range, which tightened up the in-room bass response nicely. 

One nice thing about my Super 7's in the basement is they are open baffle bass and you don't have to mess with this type of stuff.  I'd almost forgotten how nice that was