AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: brooklyn on 14 Feb 2020, 07:01 am
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Hi everyone,
I’ve recently gotten back into 2 channel audio and having a blast. I’m thinking of getting a turntable again (my buddy says I’m crazy) to play some albums that belonged to my wife’s parents. The music would be of my Italian heritage that I haven’t heard in years.. I would probably collect some new vinyl going forward..
My last vinyl rig was a VPI Scout with an Ortofon 2M Black Cartridge. I’m not looking to approach that level from a new rig but I’m looking for something under 1k whither it be used or new in my price range.
My preferences are a belt drive manual table with a premounted cartridge for that plug and play ready to go table with a hinged dust cover. I do have the necessary tools to mount a cartridge if need be.
I’ve been looking at vinyl rigs like the Rega P2 or a Pro-Ject X1.. I never owned a turntable from either one of those companies so I’m not sure what to expect. I guess what I’m looking for is recommendations for a turntable around my target price that forum members are happy with.
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For that budget look at Music Hall. Always an over achiever.
charles
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Aren't Music Hall tables rebadged Pro-Jects? I've owned both Rega and Pro-Ject tables and would pick Rega as the superior table, with caveats. The P2 has absolutely no adjustability, not even anti skate, which is fine if you stick with the supplied Carbon cartridge, a rebadged AT91. The Pro-Ject has rudimentary VTA and anti skate adjustments, but inferior bearings in both platter and tonearm. An aquaintance from here on AC traded in his $1,500 VPI Traveler for a $700 Pioneer PLX1000 direct drive and never looked back. The Fluance RT85 has received good reviews. Both of these tables are made by Hanpin, which used to only make very low end junk, but has improved their offerings lately.
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The Orbit is another well regarded low cost TT.
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Depending on your time frame, the new Schiit Sol should be released fairly soon from what I understand.
https://www.schiit.com/products/sol
-Ron
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Both of these tables are made by Hanpin, which used to only make very low end junk, but has improved their offerings lately.
Just a minor correction: the Fluance tables are made by 'Ya Horng' not Hanpin. They are the OEM for a bunch of other tables. But I agree that these companies have improved over the years.
As for recommendations: The thing that bothers me about Rega is that all their models below the RP6 can run fast. Since their higher end models do not run fast and have tight tolerances that says to me they'd rather use a cheaper motor and let their fanbase make excuses for it. If Fluance can do it, no reason Rega can't.
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Thank you for all the replies..
I know my price point for a turntable is not that much. Over the years I’ve learned that a better quality table equals better sound, that would mean raising my target price.. I thought 1K would get me something decent but after looking at the replies I see some sacrifices will have to be made if I’m going to stay within my price point..
I looked at a video of the new Schiit Table and realized it wasn’t for me. There were too many adjustments, it gave me a headache just watching it being set up.
The Pioneer has way too many gadgets on it for me, I like no frills..
I remember many years ago, I was in an Audio Salon in Kansas City and the sales person was demonstrating a Music Hall table.. it turned out to have a bad hum. That demo caused me to shy away from them for years.. I’m sure things have gotten better since then, maybe it’s time for another look.
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My preferences are a belt drive manual table with a premounted cartridge for that plug and play ready to go table with a hinged dust cover.
Your preference sounds exactly like a Thorens turntable. I never heard one but I like the way they look, just how a classic turntable should look. Prices for a belt drive manual with hinged dust cover start at $400.
https://thorens.com/en/products/thorens%C2%AE-turntables.html (https://thorens.com/en/products/thorens%C2%AE-turntables.html)
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Your preference sounds exactly like a Thorens turntable. I never heard one but I like the way they look, just how a classic turntable should look. Prices for a belt drive manual with hinged dust cover start at $400.
https://thorens.com/en/products/thorens%C2%AE-turntables.html (https://thorens.com/en/products/thorens%C2%AE-turntables.html)
Those new cheaper Thorens are most likely made by the same company that makes the Fluance (Ya Horng). So expectations should be set accordingly i.e these are not going to be anywhere near vintage Thorens performance. Does not mean they won't sound good though.
To the OP: The Pro-ject X1 got a very good review from HifiNews. I like them because they actually do lab tests on turntables and they also review vintage tables which is pretty cool.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/pro-ject-audio-systems-x1-turntable-lab-report
Look at that resonance graph. Really impressive.
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I’ve been out of the turntable auditioning and buying scene for quite a while now. I’ve owned a Pro-Ject 1Xpression with Speedbox and acrylic platter. I put a Dynavector 10x5 on it as well. I love the combo. Prices have skyrocketed since I bought mine. The closest deck Pro-Ject seems to make to it currently is the X1. It has the carbon fiber tonearm, acrylic platter and speedbox (or something like it built in).
Someone said Music Halls are re-badged Pro-Jects. Maybe one or two, but definitely not all. Pro-Ject OEMs Music Halls, but they’re not the same deck.
I bought my deck before I heard Rega decks. After being around Regas, I’d rather a Rega. The P3 with Elys cartridge is right over your budget at I think $1145. Down the road, upgrade the cartridge if you’re using the deck often enough to justify it. I love the Dynavector 10x5 on Regas (and practically everything else that’s good enough for it). The price has skyrocketed on that one too since I bought it. I paid about $375 for it back around 2009. Now? $750. Holy inflation, Batman!
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'plug and play and call it a day' ................
https://uturnaudio.com/products/orbit-special-turntable
I know you stated a budget of 1k but wasn't sure if you also need a phono-pre, not to mention cleaning / maint supplies.
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With the Orbit Special and a Van alstine phono preamp, the budget is met including phono pre. If you don't need that, you could always spend the savings on records.
My only quibble with the Orbit is no anti-skate (apparently problematic with unipivot arms).
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The new Schiit turntable looks very interesting for $600:
(https://i0.wp.com/audio-head.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Schiit-Ragnarok-2-8288.jpg?w=800&ssl=1)
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The Orbit Special is a Gimbal arm not unipovot and has Atiskate it states.
The Sol is a unipivot arm. Have to read more after it is re-released.
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The Orbit Special is a Gimbal arm not unipovot and has Atiskate it states.
The Sol is a unipivot arm. Have to read more after it is re-released.
Thanks for the correction It doesn't look very different from their original arm which was unipivot. I wonder about the 'one size fits all' antiskating though- tracking force and tip shape both affect skating. I used to use a Johnny Winter double album that had one blank side to 'dial in' my antiskating setting.
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Thanks for the correction It doesn't look very different from their original arm which was unipivot. I wonder about the 'one size fits all' antiskating though- tracking force and tip shape both affect skating. I used to use a Johnny Winter double album that had one blank side to 'dial in' my antiskating setting.
Skating force is different on a blank record than when the stylus is in a groove, so if you set the arm to have no drift on a blank LP your anti-skating will be set too high. When A/S is properly set the arm should initially be stable and then slowly skate inward when tested in the leadout groove section close to the label.
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There was a JVC QL-A7 that didn't sell at $355 on Ebay yesterday that should be a considerable step up from these intro tables both in speed stability and arm quality. If it's relisted, that's a great value on a very solid table.
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I have a couple of high end turntables, and a mid price one, all bought at decent prices, used. But my biggest surprise was my Revox B790 Parallel tracking turntable, which actually sounds virtually as good as my 'top' ones.... So why am I surprised when, on release it cost almost twice the cost of a new LP12, so it SHOULD be good, shouldn't it? Well, I say 'surprise' because the date of issue of this deck is 1978-82. This one HAS been completely overhauled by Revox's workshop in Waldshut, Germany, but it sounds excellent, and the soundstage is huge, even compared to my Linn, Orbe and AR turntable.
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It's a little crazy for me to be posting in the vinyl circle (first one ever) as I haven't played any vinyl in nearly 30 years. I've been looking into a budget friendly TT and phono pre to play my vinyl collection that my wife is pressuring me to sell. I can't do it! Some of the stuff was my dad's.
That said, my budget is something less than the OP's, but I've learned a lot from my research. I was strongly considering a Fluance RT83 or RT85 or a U-Turn Orbit Plus, then a Pro-ject Debut Carbon DC, and landed on a Rega Planer 1. Why? This guy's reviews: https://youtu.be/MuuOgT0XBK0
That review, and others from this guy are some of the best I've seen, and I wanted others to see them as they my help. He's not easy to understand, but he covers that by putting the dialog on the screen. Based on his reviews and other information around the web, I'm planning to order a Rega P1 and a Schiit Mani. It's interesting to get what seems like very respectable performance from a budget table with a $12 cartridge. Upgrading the cartridge in the future will just be another bonus. My only issue with the Rega P1 and P2 is the lame anti-skate setup which requires DIY modification for alternative cartridges. That said, I wouldn't buy any of the other tables over the Rega now based on what I know overall.
Please understand that I just barely understand any of this stuff, and I'd appreciate any comments. Hope this helps the OP a bit.
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It's a little crazy for me to be posting in the vinyl circle (first one ever) as I haven't played any vinyl in nearly 30 years. I've been looking into a budget friendly TT and phono pre to play my vinyl collection that my wife is pressuring me to sell. I can't do it! Some of the stuff was my dad's.
That said, my budget is something less than the OP's, but I've learned a lot from my research. I was strongly considering a Fluance RT83 or RT85 or a U-Turn Orbit Plus, then a Pro-ject Debut Carbon DC, and landed on a Rega Planer 1. Why? This guy's reviews: https://youtu.be/MuuOgT0XBK0
That review, and others from this guy are some of the best I've seen, and I wanted others to see them as they my help. He's not easy to understand, but he covers that by putting the dialog on the screen. Based on his reviews and other information around the web, I'm planning to order a Rega P1 and a Schiit Mani. It's interesting to get what seems like very respectable performance from a budget table with a $12 cartridge. Upgrading the cartridge in the future will just be another bonus. My only issue with the Rega P1 and P2 is the lame anti-skate setup which requires DIY modification for alternative cartridges. That said, I wouldn't buy any of the other tables over the Rega now based on what I know overall.
Please understand that I just barely understand any of this stuff, and I'd appreciate any comments. Hope this helps the OP a bit.
He doesn't mention they run fast though which impacts sound.
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He doesn't mention they run fast though which impacts sound.
They don't seem to run all that fast, and I saw a couple of alternative belts brought them into 33.3-33.4, so maybe not really an issue?
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Ian does a pretty nice job hearing the differences on the toob.
His Cartridge shootouts are very good comparing the
Nagaoka cartridges. Don't care for Rega's (had 3) last was a P5 totally upgraded with 1K+ in parts, I planned to keep it, and anything after that was much better. Rega has/had QC issues too. Lots of them.
I had a VPI HW19 MKIII that always ran fast too. Depends if you are sensitive to this.
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Recently, I was gifted a vintage Pioneer PL-L1000 turntable in what looked like mint condition and weighed a ton.. I thought it would solve my need to buy a new turntable. It was truly unfortunate that as good as it looked, it didn’t work properly.. I guess that’s why I never thought vintage was for me.. Needless to say, I’m still on the hunt.
I seem to be comparing every table to my last one, the VPI Scout which is not a good thing to do, at least not for the money I willing to spend this time. The video on the three turntables was interesting, there’s no doubt that guy liked the Rega. I could actually hear a difference in sound quality through my computer headphone system. I’ve only seen Rega’s in HiFi shops over the years but only listen to one briefly at a friends home, that was to long ago to remember.. They always seemed cheaply made to me and not worth the money they were asking except for their tonearms which looked nicely crafted..
Someone on Audiomart is selling a new VPI Cliffwood for a reduced amount of money but I don’t see too much enthusiasm for it on the net.. It looks nice and simple but no dust cover..
I see the Pro-Ject 1Xpression Carbon Classic on the Music Direct website is now being sold for $699.00, $400 off the list price.. It also comes with an Ortofon 2M Silver Cartridge.. That one might work for me..
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They don't seem to run all that fast, and I saw a couple of alternative belts brought them into 33.3-33.4, so maybe not really an issue?
RP1,2, and 3 have speed tolerance of up to .75% fast and Wow&Flutter up to .5%. That is absolutely audible if someone gets one of their tables operating in that range. Some people like that and that's great, others have no idea because they are beginners with no frame of reference; but I think it's important that someone spending $500 - $1000 should know the cons as well as the pros. You shouldn't have to spend more money on a belt just to get your table to run at the proper speed.
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You have to take Ian's review of those 3 TT's with a grain of salt. All 3 cartridges are different and will sound different. In addition, cartridges do need some break in time. I own 2 Nagaoka Carts's (MP-200 and MP-150). Nagaoka recommends 30 hours of break in before they sound their best. They were spot on. The Carts did not have good bass or dynamics until about 25 hours. The change in sound was remarkable.
In addition, certain TT's and cartridges pair better with certain phono preamps.
My only comment on the P1 is that it appears flimsy. Even the guys at the Needle Doctor agreed when I mentioned it. I am sure it sounds pretty good though.
I personally use a fully refurbished 1970's Thorens TD-145 TT with the MP-200 Cartridge.
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In the description of the video, Ian states that each turntable was given 100 hours of burn-in.
I would have to agree that each cartridge will sound different, but at least the Rega bested the group with the cheapest one?
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I would have to agree that each cartridge will sound different, but at least the Rega bested the group with the cheapest one?
The Rega and the Sony are using the exact same cartridge - the AT3600. The Rega uses the version with the carbon fiber cantilever. I can't tell if the Sony uses the carbon or aluminum. You can get this cart for as little as $9 direct from China.
One question I have is Ian doesn't say what rca cables he used for the Sony. Since phono cable capacitance can impact the sound, a typical (even if high-end) rca would be a poor choice. Low capacitance is a must. The Rega has built in cables so presumably low.
But the point is out of the box performance and in that respect the Rega definitely sounds best in his comparison, if a little fast.
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I mentioned this before, but I see that it's back up for sale. It's a JVC QL-A7. That's a pretty dang good table. Shoot, the arm is worth a couple of hundred, it's got a new cartridge, and he's asking only $350 and will entertain offers. I don't need a 5th turntable, but is worth looking at. It got to kill anything under $1000
Don't know the guy from Adam, but his track record looks good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-QL-A7/184173790807?hash=item2ae19d0657:g:6C0AAOSwl2deNf4M
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That JVC looks quite nice but I’m not too much of a vintage person.. I just purchased a brand new Pro-Ject 1Xpression Carbon Classic with a Ortofon 2M Silver cartridge. It’s on closeout so I got one for a decent price.. I’ll post pictures when it comes.. I don’t think I could have done better for the money spent.
Thank you for all the interesting comments, it was appreciated..
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You can't touch that JVC with something new for less than thousands.
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Aren't Music Hall tables rebadged Pro-Jects?
yes. Pro-Ject is currently the largest TT manufacturer in the world.
I personally would look to a Rega.
Now if you can drop the price of a car the SME Synergy comes with everthing including a phono stage built in (by Nagra).
dave
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... JVC QL-A7….
Not my cup of tea.
During the late 70s, early 80s the hifi shop i worked at had a cadre of the best DDs in that class we could get. They regularily got spanked by much less expensive belt-drives.
dave
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Your experience, your opinion. That's not my experience with SOTA, VPI, Rega, and Vyger tables compared to Technics SP10-II or the Victor TT-81.
Not saying I'm right/wrong or in between...
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Not my cup of tea.
During the late 70s, early 80s the hifi shop i worked at had a cadre of the best DDs in that class we could get. They regularily got spanked by much less expensive belt-drives.
dave
And plenty of people out there who had the opposite experience. And plenty of people with idlers who say it spanks both.
There is no best drive.
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Everything is a trade-off. The big Technics & a Denon 3000 were amongst our collection.
dave
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Everything is a trade-off. The big Technics & a Denon 3000 were amongst our collection.
dave
You didn't mention anything about trade-offs, other than evidently belt drives were just better.
Speaking of working in hifi shops in late 70s, early 80s:
https://youtu.be/DvswW6M7bMo
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You didn't mention anything about trade-offs, other than evidently belt drives were just better.
Obiously for my set of preferred compromises.
dave
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I mentioned this before, but I see that it's back up for sale. It's a JVC QL-A7. That's a pretty dang good table. Shoot, the arm is worth a couple of hundred, it's got a new cartridge, and he's asking only $350 and will entertain offers. I don't need a 5th turntable, but is worth looking at. It got to kill anything under $1000
Don't know the guy from Adam, but his track record looks good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-QL-A7/184173790807?hash=item2ae19d0657:g:6C0AAOSwl2deNf4M
Maybe the price is too high? :dunno:
Here's a thread from 13 yrs ago saying it (table + arm) should go for about $100, and that the new price in late 70s was $350.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jvc-ql-a7-turntable-worth-pursuing.113070/
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Maybe the price is too high? :dunno:
No, that's about $100 under the going price.
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Maybe the price is too high? :dunno:
Here's a thread from 13 yrs ago saying it (table + arm) should go for about $100, and that the new price in late 70s was $350.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jvc-ql-a7-turntable-worth-pursuing.113070/
The vintage table market has skyrocketed since 13 years ago, but it's also not consistent. Certain models continue to increase in value (Pioneer, Denon) while others have a moment then dip then rise then dip - not unlike stocks (AR-XA). That's because most sellers google to see what others have paid and scour forum threads. Over time it's become self-perpetuating. Bottom line is the prettier the wood veneer and the shinier the buttons, the more people are willing to pay.
That QL A7 has barely any recent ebay sales history and forum discussions are thin, so yes I think the asking price is a bit high. It's original price of $350 in the late 70s (~$1200 today) is an indicator that it's a darn good table though.
Nowadays I've learned to look for rarer less well documented tables that are under the radar. Since there were thousands of turntable models made, it's not too hard once you know what to look for. The other niche scene is ordering direct from japan auction sites. The Japanese market has *way* better vintage tables. Evidently they kept the primo models to themselves and sent everyone else the scraps!
However, I have noticed fewer ebay sales and lower variety. I think the glut of new tables like Fluance, etc. is finally impacting the vintage scene. Yay, everybody wins.
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The QL-A7 has the motor of the Victor TT-71. Not the same beast as the TT-81 or the extra expensive TT-101, but in that same family and an excellent motor. On HiFi Shark some sold in the $400+ range. If constant speed is on your list of things of value in a TT, then it should be considered a high value.
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The QL-A7 has the motor of the Victor TT-71. Not the same beast as the TT-81 or the extra expensive TT-101, but in that same family and an excellent motor. On HiFi Shark some sold in the $400+ range. If constant speed is on your list of things of value in a TT, then it should be considered a high value.
Strange. Only hifishark sold results I found before were overseas. The table is in big demand for German/Dutch buyers that's for sure. Sells for big money there.
Anyhoos, congrats to the OP on the new table!
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Yep, any table that spins and provides enjoyment is money well spent. :thumb:
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The marantz tt15s1 is a bargain at 1500. You can find them used or refurbished for around 1000
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I purchased the Fluance RT85 and am amazed with this thing. Unfortunately I cannot compare it to other models at this price point but my research led me to this model because of the value you get since it comes with the 2m blue cartridge and an acrylic platter. That's at least $250-$300 in value right there in a unit that costs $500. I'm waiting to break the cartridge in a bit first, but I look forward to experimenting with some cheaper cartridges just for the enjoyment of tinkering with it.