Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening

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A_shah

Hello,
I am Trying to get 2nd & 3rd opinion on Subwoofers with 2 channel listening  :scratch: Peronnely I do not like subwoofers for 2 channel listening , I seem to think they do create a distortion. Recently I acquired Via Amazon Prime ( 30 day listening trial period) a pair   of REL T/9i to pair with my Floor standing speakers that go down to 28hZ I use  QuickSilver Mono KT-88 amps I used the high level input as suggested by REL > I found that Sound was more fuller seems to have more oomph ! But dial on the subs go down to 28 HZ ,on spec sheet  The sound is very pleasing! :) :D So my question is do I need to get subs that would go down say 20 HZ and dial  the XO between 25-30 as suggested to me, ? the REL T/9i have Class AB amps which I like but the S Series( 810/510) have Class D amps which I don't care for  ? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated !
thanks !

Asghar
AS  FYI I do own a Hsu VTF 15 MK2 which serves in my HT system  Which supposedly can go down to 15HZ but the dail on XO just says 30 HZ the HSU is a GR8 sub for HT.

SoCalWJS

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #1 on: 16 Feb 2020, 02:21 pm »
A few questions. What is the size of your room? Do you have any room treatments?

Have you looked into open baffle subs?

WGH

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #2 on: 16 Feb 2020, 05:51 pm »
So my question is do I need to get subs that would go down say 20 HZ and dial  the XO between 25-30 as suggested to me, ?


Yes and yes, you just got the wrong REL subs. I can answer your questions about REL subs even though you asked in the GR Research circle which is open baffle land.

I don't have room for open baffle subs, which generally need to be placed 3'-4' from the front wall so I went with REL. I first heard a REL Gibraltar G2 (discontinued) paired with Magneplan 20.7 speakers and the combination was seamless, the REL was fast enough to keep up with the Maggie's too. The icing on the cake was the remote, as anyone with subs that dig deep knows, some modern recordings have bass that is un-naturally boosted, which will sound great on speakers with limited low frequency response but with a sub can over power a room. A twist on the remote's dial brings the sound back in balance. The REL G2 and the new G1 Mark II have a LED read out on the speaker so the volume and crossover can easily and accurately be returned to reference settings. Having control at your fingertips is too much fun.

My 2 channel setup is also part of a 7.1.4 Atmos home theater so I needed a sub with a .1 LFE input. Films with strong low frequency's like Blade Runner 2049 do not disappoint.

Not many people have REL Gibraltar subs, I may be the only one on AC. The main reason is they are so expensive. The G2's never ever come up used, I got lucky. I waited 6 years to find a used one I could afford plus they work best in a smaller room.  The G1 Mark II would be the sub for most people. And you may only need one, the 2" of cone travel can put out tremendous amounts of deep clean distortion free bass, watching a 25 Hz signal pressurize a room is scary.

https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/reference-series/g1-mark-ii/

--> REL G1 Mark II Review <--

A_shah

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #3 on: 16 Feb 2020, 07:10 pm »
A few questions. What is the size of your room? Do you have any room treatments?

Have you looked into open baffle subs?


Room size is 15''W 24L  9' H goes into kitchen area vaulted ceiling 14/15 feet, room one side open to the back wall listening area approximately 20' listening position about 15 ' Speakers are about 11.5 ' apart , just GIK 1st reflection points treated rest of the room curtains coaches furniture I use and old Radio Shack SPL meter constantly to pressurize the room at about 75db listen in at about 65 to 68 db. no I have not looked at open baffle subs , I like the way my speakers sound just need slight bass oomph at the low end since I do listen to classical music 

@WGH

As mentioned I do own a HSU VTF 15 MK 2, a very fine sub just for HT , I  looked at the REL G1 MK 2 it is up for sale on the website  and it has a A/B amp I can swing that but two of them would be too much plus WAF , I am also looking the S / 810 or Dual S /510 but don't like the Class D amp leaning toward S/510 as they go down to 20 HZ but can look at at the G1 MK 2 since it is on sale and have 60 days to return it
Asghar

 

lincolnmat

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #4 on: 17 Feb 2020, 01:28 pm »
Why are you so dead set against Class D? Unless you have heard a recent Class D amp, I would suggest you may be out of date in experience.

That being said, the knock on Class D is that it can be harsh for high frequencies. In a subwoofer you won't be dealing with any high frequencies.

Matt

JeffB

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2020, 11:03 pm »
A few things to consider.
I found the following posted elsewhere, I have not verified it.

"The fundamental of the low E of a bass guitar is 41.203 Hz.
The low A on a piano is 27.5 Hz.
Kick drum (floor toms and tympani) "fundamentals" can be anywhere from about 90 Hz on down to 25 Hz
  depending on how the drum is tuned."

Due to way we hear frequencies you won't hear sub 30Hz frequencies unless you play your music really loud.  Lookup "equal loudness curves".
I suspect you need near rock concert volume.

Speaker manufacturers exaggerate their specs.  I just looked up the specification of a Klipsch RF7-II with 2 10" drivers specified as 30Hz -3db.
However, a posted frequency graph shows bass dramatically drop off starting at 40Hz.

Speakers compress their response as volume goes up.  In  other words, crank up the volume on the Klipsch RF7-II
and bass response may start to fall off dramatically at even higher frequencies.

I suspect if your main speakers really did 28Hz you would not benefit from a sub-woofer, but they likely do not.
Thus you probably want to cross-over higher, like 60Hz.
Despite REL's recommendation, I think you want to high-pass the main's and low pass the sub-woofer.  I don't believe you can do that with the high level input of the REL that you have.

I would suggest that if you have a receiver that is capable of setting a cross-over point that high passes the mains and low passes the subs that you give that a try.  You can usually
choose from several crossover points like 60, 80, 100, 120, 150.  And a receiver likely has a remote control over volume adjustment to the sub-woofer.
Level matching is critical, takes a ton of time listening to a variety of music and is hard to do without a remote.  And maybe impossible to do well without high passing the mains.

Room interaction is likely going to be a big problem with really low frequencies.  You may need 2 sub-woofers carefully placed to help even the room response.


WGH

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #6 on: 18 Feb 2020, 11:50 pm »
JeffB, I suggest you watch the first minute of the REL Review in my previous post. Kevin is correct that it is not all about the low bass, the mid-band and highs are also clearer along with a palpable sense of space, but to pull this off the subwoofer has to be fast, powerful, delicate and subtle like the REL Gibraltar line. I know this because I have one.

Your theory on how to hook up a REL subwoofer is 100% wrong. REL's are designed to work with full range speakers using the high level input, sound quality will suffer if the low level input is used. My Salk HT2-TL speakers go down to 34 Hz, I have the REL's crossover set to 29 Hz based on the G2's LED display. The overlap is seamless, no boomy bass here, male voices are natural. Most of the time I can't tell if the sub is on but if I turn it off the sound field collapses.

Based on my trusty Radio Shack sound meter and a Stereophile test CD the corrected low bass response at my seat is:
1 KHz calibration level - 75 dB
40 Hz - 84dB
31.5 Hz - 83.6 dB
25 Hz - 81.9 dB
20 Hz - 68.8 dB my L-shaped room is 14' x 17' open floor plan with a 9.5' x 9.5' kitchen and won't support a 56.5 ft wave length or even a 28.25 ft. half wavelength.

Anytime you are in Tucson I'll be happy to give you a demo, I'm that confident you will be amazed.

I have only heard Danny's open baffle subs at RMAF and there seemed to be a huge amount of space in his room too.

mlundy57

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #7 on: 19 Feb 2020, 05:38 am »
The sealed servo subs from Danny/Rythmik are extremely good subs as well. They tick off all the boxes for good music subs. I have one in my living room HT/music system with a pair of Danny's N3 tower speakers. Just because we talk a lot about the OB subs doesn't mean the sealed subs aren't top notch also.

A_shah

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #8 on: 19 Feb 2020, 08:53 am »
Why are you so dead set against Class D? Unless you have heard a recent Class D amp, I would suggest you may be out of date in experience.

That being said, the knock on Class D is that it can be harsh for high frequencies. In a subwoofer you won't be dealing with any high frequencies.

Matt

I think I am pretty up to date on my amps and do own a Class D Wyred4Sound MC7150 that Ej Saramento made for me with certain specs . I would prefer a class A , A/B even though in a Sub one has to deal with heat issues but than having  a XO and and amp out side a big box with a woofer is not my thing switching power supplies are noisy I still prefer toroidal power / output transformers or the C-Core I think they sound better
@ WBG
I agree with you even the Dual T9/i that I have on trial have bought more ambience , Sound Stage, Clarity in midrange and took care of room anomalies . Although my heart was set on REl G1 MK 2 which are on sale now I was offered a very good price on those but no way could I have two of those in my listening room , Long & multiple chats  with REL ( GR8 customer service) we decided that a pair of S/812 would be better suited for my listening environment  & needs than a single G1 MK2  So  I ordered  a Pair of S/812 they should be coming in from Chicago early next week

@ JeffB

It is to be expected most speaker manufacturers test their Speakers in anechoic chambers so no way am I or anyone else going to get true Low Frequency extension in my living room the same as what one would get in a dead anechoic chamber even Wilson dealer  in Berkeley California told me that when the speakers come in  their showrooms their is a difference in measurements in their showroom . My Daedalus Poseidon speakers do go down pretty close their their stated frequencies, at 28 hz you are correct you do not need subwoofer for low bass but what I find with Rel Subwoofer( pair) high level connection is more air better imaging seems to take care of problems with room acoustic, edges to the music I seem to hear all notes better as I run the speakers full range     My amplification is QuickSilver 60 watts mono  KT-88 tube amps with high damping factor I run the HT system at 60 HZ , but the two channel system is a completely separate with seperate DAC, ( PS audio Directstream )Separate Tube pre amp ( Don Sachs 2 ) both systems only share the OPPO 205   
thank you all for your feed back and help  :thumb:

Asghar
Oh yes looked at Rythmik Servo controlled,  JL , etc  like I said I own a HSU 15 " VTF 15 MK GR8 for HT for musicality it seems REL 's are the way to go at least for me 

JLM

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #9 on: 19 Feb 2020, 11:54 am »
You're seem to be listening at well below live concert sound pressure levels.  What it appears you need is something they called a loudness control before the 80's when purists eliminated them along with tone controls.  Loudness controls compensates for low and high frequency insensitivity of the ear at lower spls (documented by Fletcher/Munson).  Unfortunately loudness controls now-a-days are as hard as hens teeth to find.  And even when they existed their function was based on an assumed a combined room/speaker efficiency.

Suggest you read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition, the consummate audiophile guide for learning how speakers behave in-room.  It would point you towards the use of multiple subs to even out inevitable in-room bass peaks/dips which are typically 10 - 30 dB!  Toole worked for the Canadian Research Council (NRC) for decades before retiring from Harmon International (JBL, Revel) and is a well respected authority. 

Have you measured your in-room frequency response?  The most accurate way for consumers is with REW (Room EQ Wizard software) and a calibrated USB microphone.  It generates a full frequency sweep which the calibrated mike (important that it's calibrated) picks up.  That will show you the response at your listening position.  Without measuring the listening position response in such a manner it's all a guess. 

In my dedicated 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room I use (6) full range and (4) bass trap GIK 244 panels with (3) carefully distributed 10 inch subs and Dirac Live (a more user friendly version of REW) to even out bass response.  I listen mostly to small ensemble jazz and classical at moderate spls.  With multiple subwoofers ultimate output is less important than how deep they go.  BTW Duke LeJeune (Audio Kinesis here at Audio Circle) sells a "swarm" (4 passive subs with amplifier) for just such an application (and he's a disciple of Toole, Geddes, and other pioneers in this field).

Specifications can be easily manipulated, so if your main speakers do go down to 28 Hz, they may be down 10 dB or more (and would be room/placement dependent).  Typically you'd want to crossover higher than the rated bass output anyway as crossovers are gradual transitions (thus the terms 1st order, 2nd order, etc. which refer to 6 dB/octave, 12 dB/octave, etc. as the slopes of crossover).  BTW 1st order is phase correct but hardest on drivers as their range must be extended further than the more popular 2nd order crossover.

I'm not into subs per se, but most recommend sealed subs for music.  SVS SB-1000 and Rythmik L12 are two small sealed subs that go deep and are reasonably priced. 

Tyson

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #10 on: 19 Feb 2020, 04:49 pm »
I agree with JLM, with big, box based tower speakers, multiple subs is the way to go.  It's the best, easiest way to get smooth bass in-room.  3 sealed subs, dispersed around the room, will give you 5 bass sources (including your speakers of course), which is enough of a swarm approach to get rid of the lumpy bass that every room has.

jtwrace

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #11 on: 19 Feb 2020, 05:07 pm »
I agree with JLM, with big, box based tower speakers, multiple subs is the way to go.  It's the best, easiest way to get smooth bass in-room.  3 sealed subs, dispersed around the room, will give you 5 bass sources (including your speakers of course), which is enough of a swarm approach to get rid of the lumpy bass that every room has.
I agree with JLM, with any type of speakers, multiple subs is the way to go.  It's the best, easiest way to get smooth bass in-room.  3 sealed subs, dispersed around the room, will give you 5 bass sources (including your speakers of course), which is enough of a swarm approach to get rid of the lumpy bass that every room has.

WGH

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #12 on: 19 Feb 2020, 05:33 pm »
I ordered  a Pair of S/812 they should be coming in from Chicago early next week

Looking forward to your impressions/review once you get them adjusted and broken in. One album in particular that demonstrates how REL subs add air is The Cowboy Junkies second album The Trinity Session recorded inside Toronto's Church of the Holy Trinity on November 27, 1987, with the band circled around a single microphone. Liner notes say the recording was not mixed, overdubbed or edited in any way. Before adding the sub the album had a nice sense of space and an echo halo around the performers, with the sub my room became the church, the space was huge and the performers were in front of me.

A_shah

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #13 on: 20 Feb 2020, 06:42 am »
@JLM agree also need to do proper measurements , will try to get Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition tend to agree with rest of post makes a lot of sense.

@ WGH
will check out The Cowboy Junkies second album The Trinity Session,
3rd Sub OUCH !  :banghead: have a hard enough time trying to convince Wife & Son on 2 smaller Subs than the HSU 15 MK 2 which now I have promised to get rid of since it is a shared living room don't think she would go for for a 3rd sub but not a bad idea ! may be in the future  :popcorn:

Asghar

JLM

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #14 on: 20 Feb 2020, 11:53 am »
Like most audiophiles you don't have the advantage of a dedicated room, too bad.  Shared spaces have so many compromises (poor setup options, limited treatments, no sonic isolation, and can't listen when you want).  And so nearly all in-room audiophiles over buy gear for the given room.  For them I recommend a modest in-room system and focus serious listening on headphones and give up on realistic imaging.  I did that while in the college dorm and only when we built a house 15 years was I able to develop a verymodestly priced but properly designed room. 

My point is to focus on in-room measurements and dispersed bass to deal with inevitable and relatively huge room peaks/dips.  Those peaks/dips are easy to predict in rectangular spaces:  speed of sound divided by primary room dimensions.  In my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft the peak/dip are at 54 Hz and 87 Hz and without subs/treatments were roughly 15 dB.  So why bother with +/- 1 dB DAC's or +/- 3 dB speakers?  (Unless you enjoy, or more likely are acclimated to, the peaks/dips.) 

Tyson

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Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #15 on: 20 Feb 2020, 04:07 pm »
JLM is right, shared spaces are difficult.  As someone that had to deal with a difficult shared space for more than a decade, it's the reason I'm a big proponent of OB speakers.  Well designed OB speakers interact with the room differently and avoid some of the really entrenched problems with rooms like that.

WGH

Re: Subwoofer's for High End Speakers 2 channel listening
« Reply #16 on: 20 Feb 2020, 04:53 pm »
... the HSU 15 MK 2 which now I have promised to get rid of since it is a shared living room

The two REL S/812 will so out class the single HSU that you will wonder what took you so long. The REL .1 LFE input is designed to be used at the same time as the High Level Neutrik Speakon connection, no switching needed. The subs will get input from both the amp and the .1 surround processor output but since speakers are usually rolled off at 80 Hz with the processor the subs will not be overdriven. I use an Anthem AVM 60 processor, other Anthem processors have a built in amps but after 30 years I have plenty of amps way more powerful than the internal amps so I have an amp stack, definitely not family friendly. The Anthem processors have state-of-the-art sound and the addition of the ARC Genesis calibration really clarifies the sound plus it is easy to fine tune and tweak.