AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: virtue on 17 Jun 2009, 05:04 pm
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This thread is devoted to customers using two, three or more amps in a single setup.
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It occurred to me today that since there are 2 jumpers on the POT, you could jumper out one of the channels to run it at full tilt, and the second channel would be attenuated traditionally by the POT.... This would be interesting for DIYers who want to change the relative power sent to the tweeter/mid and woofer.
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Oh darn! I wish I had thought of that! :duh:
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using 2, already pipe dreamed about 4 :lol: fiqures.
Seth this amp has sent me on a restless search of tweaking every little thing I can, not because it needs so much help but because of the layers of info it exposed that my PP tube amp could not- flat out amazing little amps. Currently only running my TVC and not with my tube linestage which really ups the ante big time (and I'm in no hurry- it needs a slight repair)
With my set up and the 30/90 PS I have a (Take Five Audio) cryoed fig 8 converter inline so I could use real PCs. More & more of everything well worth the 8.00 pieces. I have removed all the rear housings on my RCAs, IECs, Plugs and placed black hole pad on them revealing a more open, airey detailed SS, and more recording venue ambience. Hope others will give these simple tweaks a whirl. I did so to reduce the mass of the connectors and removed excess dielectric, the BHP is used to quiet any micro vibrations on the connectors.
So while I am yapping is it possible for me to use 1 amp for tweeter and another for the bass/mid driver. Currently I am using both spkr. taps (for bi-wired drivers) per amp, so I am feeding them with a DIY Y-cable.
Do I stand to gain substantially by such effort or is it overkill :lol: (maybe you could ask Roger?) - my sub is SS powered and connected thru my pre amp(S).
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Post pictures! Post pictures!
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Is it possible for me to use 1 current Virtue amp for tweeter and a 2nd generation Virtue amp for the bass/mid driver? Or will impedance differences make this not doable?
Would I gain substantially by such effort? Could you could ask Roger?
Pictures coming soon.
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We're not going to give any specifics about next gen aside from assuring you guys that they're coming and they're going to continue our tradition of monster value.
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...continue our tradition of monster value.
Careful with that word; I wouldn't be surprised if Monster Cables even sues Merriam Webster for using it in the dictionary..... :nono: :duh:
It occurred to me today that since there are 2 jumpers on the POT, you could jumper out one of the channels to run it at full tilt, and the second channel would be attenuated traditionally by the POT.... This would be interesting for DIYers who want to change the relative power sent to the tweeter/mid and woofer.
Out of curiosity, has anyone compared running one amp for both tweeters and one amp for both woofers versus running one amp for tweeters/woofers on each side?
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...continue our tradition of monster value.
Careful with that word; I wouldn't be surprised if Monster Cables even sues Merriam Webster for using it in the dictionary..... :nono: :duh:
The famous Monster vs. Blue Jeans Cable. :)
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/index.htm
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Any sonic benefit in using one Virtue Two for one channel as if they were monoblocks? need special rewiring to get this up and running? Will each set become more powerful or just the same? :duh:
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Any sonic benefit in using one Virtue Two for one channel as if they were monoblocks? need special rewiring to get this up and running? Will each set become more powerful or just the same? :duh:
No, the one channel will just pull all the available current from the power supply. You should get the same benefit by going with a custom 200+W power supply.
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Any sonic benefit in using one Virtue Two for one channel as if they were monoblocks? need special rewiring to get this up and running? Will each set become more powerful or just the same? :duh:
No, the one channel will just pull all the available current from the power supply. You should get the same benefit by going with a custom 200+W power supply.
Would he not be using a separate PS for each amp and double his watts per channel? I am confused :scratch:
thanks 1000a
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Any sonic benefit in using one Virtue Two for one channel as if they were monoblocks? need special rewiring to get this up and running? Will each set become more powerful or just the same? :duh:
No, the one channel will just pull all the available current from the power supply. You should get the same benefit by going with a custom 200+W power supply.
Would he not be using a separate PS for each amp and double his watts per channel? I am confused :scratch:
thanks 1000a
Yes, you can get the same result either by mono blocking two Virtues or using one Virtue with a custom power supply.
The max is 100 wpc you can achieve that either way.
edit: when mono-blocking the Virtues you aren't bridging the two channels you are just allowing one channel to pull all the power from the power supply. The two channels can't be bridged.
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Many owners had reported great results with monoblocks. We've sold quite few for this use.
I've tried it and like it, too.
You not only get twice the potential current (2 power supplies), you get almost infinitely low amplifier crosstalk. True, you don't really get any more watts, but it does sound better, no doubt about it.
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Thanks guys, :D
OK I believe I have it but potential increased current has me stumped.
I have 2 30/90 PS w mono amps, is going to the 30/130 PS even worth the expense?
I now get 6amp/30v/180w total (90 watts per channel) - correct?
Would I get (8.6amp/30v/200w total) or (6.6 amp/30v/200w total) with the upgrade?
Do I divide 260 (2x130) by 30 or 200 divided by 30? :scratch:
The upgraded watts 100 vs 90 seems not worth 200 more.
4.3 amp vs 3 amp sounds maybe worth it / 3.3 vs 3 amp certainly not.
I am not complaining just trying to educate my self.
Many owners had reported great results with monoblocks. We've sold quite few for this use.
I've tried it and like it, too.
You not only get twice the potential current (2 power supplies), you get almost infinitely low amplifier crosstalk. True, you don't really get any more watts, but it does sound better, no doubt about it.
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I think you are at the point where the math doesn't really matter anymore and the question becomes the quality of the power supply. If you upgraded you would have more current than the amp could use so both your results apply but if it would make a difference is impossible to say. Perhaps Micheal will chime in again.
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I believe you are right. It becomes the quality of the power at this point. I have never tried bi-amping with 130W supplies. If I could ever keep 2 long enough, I might!
What you have is a very good setup. The lust for more is just that - the lust for more. We are all subject to it from time to time. ;) But it may sound better, who knows? There are a few Virtue owners out there doing this.
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I think you are at the point where the math doesn't really matter anymore and the question becomes the quality of the power supply. If you upgraded you would have more current than the amp could use so both your results apply but if it would make a difference is impossible to say. Perhaps Micheal will chime in again.
I believe you are right. It becomes the quality of the power at this point. I have never tried bi-amping with 130W supplies. If I could ever keep 2 long enough, I might!
What you have is a very good setup. The lust for more is just that - the lust for more. We are all subject to it from time to time. ;) But it may sound better, who knows? There are a few Virtue owners out there doing this.
Thanks again guys,
:duh: pano is Michael :lol:
Very good, I will eventually try the 130s but you are right and it does sound unbelievably good on good recordings- smokes my big tube amp- but some how maintains it's glorious mid-range and adds more detail to it. Still got to fix my linestage (w it inline the system is off the charts good) but summer has called me- outside whenever possible. :D
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I think you are at the point where the math doesn't really matter anymore and the question becomes the quality of the power supply. If you upgraded you would have more current than the amp could use so both your results apply but if it would make a difference is impossible to say. Perhaps Micheal will chime in again.
I believe you are right. It becomes the quality of the power at this point. I have never tried bi-amping with 130W supplies. If I could ever keep 2 long enough, I might!
What you have is a very good setup. The lust for more is just that - the lust for more. We are all subject to it from time to time. ;) But it may sound better, who knows? There are a few Virtue owners out there doing this.
Thanks again guys,
:duh: pano is Michael :lol:
Very good, I will eventually try the 130s but you are right and it does sound unbelievably good on good recordings- smokes my big tube amp- but some how maintains it's glorious mid-range and adds more detail to it. Still got to fix my linestage (w it inline the system is off the charts good) but summer has called me- outside whenever possible. :D
dear 1000a, I have both 90watt and 130watt ps. After you have compared them, you won't go back to 90watt one. You may not be able to hear a very big difference if your speakers are very sensitive in the range of 93db-100db, but when you are using them to drive less sensitive loudspeakers, the difference is not so funny. :nono:
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dear 1000a, I have both 90watt and 130watt ps. After you have compared them, you won't go back to 90watt one. You may not be able to hear a very big difference if your speakers are very sensitive in the range of 93db-100db, but when you are using them to drive less sensitive loudspeakers, the difference is not so funny. :nono:
Are you running mono amps? Thanks, 1000a
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dear 1000a, I have both 90watt and 130watt ps. After you have compared them, you won't go back to 90watt one. You may not be able to hear a very big difference if your speakers are very sensitive in the range of 93db-100db, but when you are using them to drive less sensitive loudspeakers, the difference is not so funny. :nono:
Are you running mono amps? Thanks, 1000a
No, i only have one Virtue 2. I am powering them with the 130w ps.
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First, there was one two...
(http://www.issuebroker.com/virtue_1.jpg)
...now they are two:
(http://www.issuebroker.com/virtuetwotwo.jpg)
:lol:
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:thumb:
Do you find the red to sound a little warm and the white to be cooler?
:lol:
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:thumb:
Do you find the red to sound a little warm and the white to be cooler?
:lol:
Hm... using one per channel, the sound is more metalic... more harsh... with less bass... very hard to listen to, all the sweetness is gone...
The combination simply sounds... bad :(
It is strange, I expected quite the opposite! :scratch:
Maybe the new one is still not broken in and is masking the old one... :?
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:thumb:
Do you find the red to sound a little warm and the white to be cooler?
:lol:
Hm... using one per channel, the sound is more metalic... more harsh... with less bass... very hard to listen to, all the sweetness is gone...
The combination simply sounds... bad :(
It is strange, I expected quite the opposite! :scratch:
Maybe the new one is still not broken in and is masking the old one... :?
Yes, I find this result strange as I have thought about setting up something similar a while ago too....something wrong with the phase connection?
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I have had success running two Virtue Ones as monos with the 30v/90w supplies and they rocked. Didn't run them through a pre-amp or anything.
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No reason it should sound worse. I would check polarity for sure. Do you have a test tone or track for that?
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No reason it should sound worse. I would check polarity for sure. Do you have a test tone or track for that?
Polarity is OK. :thumb:
It sounds as if the distortion levels are higher when using just one channel (sound is harder, you can't listen to it with high volume for too long).
Connect two speakers to the amp and the sound gets in order...
I've checked the clipping LED and it does light up at the exact same spot as it does with both speakers driven.
Shouldn't it begin to clip a bit later, now driving just one speaker? :scratch:
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No, clipping is a function of the input signal and nothing else.
I'm surprised this doesn't work for you. It works great for me and many other Virtue owners. Wonder what's going on......
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No, clipping is a function of the input signal and nothing else.
I'm surprised this doesn't work for you. It works great for me and many other Virtue owners. Wonder what's going on......
The lack of bass could be seen as better controlled lows?
Speakers are Klipsch RF83, 100db/2.83v/1m sensibility (8ohm nominal).
I also tried JBL S312II (92db/1m/2.83v 8ohm).
Maybe the new Two just needs more break-in.
I'm making it sweat as we speak :)
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The lack of bass could be seen as better controlled lows?
Very possible. A lot of effiecient bass speakers actually need a low damping factor amp to get any bass at all. Think tube amps. With something like the klipsch, you might test some series resistance to lower the damping factor and restore tonal balance. Anything from 1/2 an ohm up to ~4 ohms. I've had to do it with some speakers.
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A lot of effiecient bass speakers actually need a low damping factor amp to get any bass at all.
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This is what I have in mine too. This phenomenon exist and is especially more obvious on some speakers than others. For example, My east german Schulz coaxial speakers definitely respond much better to tube amp with much lower damping factor. You can hear a very "hard" bass like hammering, kind of ONE note thing, but with tube amp that has much smaller power, the bass is deep and textured. But on other speakers, I like Virtue more than the tube amp..
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The lack of bass could be seen as better controlled lows?
Very possible. A lot of effiecient bass speakers actually need a low damping factor amp to get any bass at all. Think tube amps. With something like the klipsch, you might test some series resistance to lower the damping factor and restore tonal balance. Anything from 1/2 an ohm up to ~4 ohms. I've had to do it with some speakers.
This must be why my Horn Shoppe Horns don't make much bass with the Virtue One. I use a sub to fill in, so it's not a problem and it sounds really sweet in the mids and highs. But, it is much 'bassier' with the 30v/130w PS than the 90w PS.
How would you go about adding resistance, Michael? I'm not a DIY/techie type, so I'd have to get someone else to do it. But, I'm curious to know what is involved, if you could explain--and what the trade offs might be.
Thanks,
Guy
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The lack of bass could be seen as better controlled lows?
Very possible. A lot of effiecient bass speakers actually need a low damping factor amp to get any bass at all. Think tube amps. With something like the klipsch, you might test some series resistance to lower the damping factor and restore tonal balance. Anything from 1/2 an ohm up to ~4 ohms. I've had to do it with some speakers.
This must be why my Horn Shoppe Horns don't make much bass with the Virtue One. I use a sub to fill in, so it's not a problem and it sounds really sweet in the mids and highs. But, it is much 'bassier' with the 30v/130w PS than the 90w PS.
How would you go about adding resistance, Michael? I'm not a DIY/techie type, so I'd have to get someone else to do it. But, I'm curious to know what is involved, if you could explain--and what the trade offs might be.
Thanks,
Guy
I learned this from Michael quite some time ago. You just insert a resistor between either + or - of your speaker cable , and the speaker's input socket. (not across + and -, becareful). This has the effect of adding resistance to the chain and mathematically increase the output impedance of your amp. Other things being equal, the higher the output impedance of your amp, the lower the damping factor it will see. But make sure you choose to use a higher "wattage" resistor, 10w would be a good start. Nelson Pass did this kind of trick when he published a paper on SS amp and efficient fullrange (mostly lowther and fostex) a while back.
Michael, correct me if I am wrong here. :duh: :duh: :roll:
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another way is to use those "old and ugly" speaker cable like those from Klangfilm/Western Electric time which often has a higher resistance than modern cables
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You are correct! Series resistance is what you want. Use a 10 watt resistor made for crossovers and you will have no problems.
With a series resistor you can change to tonal balance of some speakers. The lower the Qts of the bass driver and the higher the damping factor of the amp, the more difference the resistor will make. Both the low Qts and the high damping factor in the amp are indications of "damping". You can lower that damping with the resistor. Very thin cables can have the same effect. So the woofer is not do tightly controlled. Sometimes needed to get any bass at all.
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You are correct! Series resistance is what you want. Use a 10 watt resistor made for crossovers and you will have no problems.
With a series resistor you can change to tonal balance of some speakers. The lower the Qts of the bass driver and the higher the damping factor of the amp, the more difference the resistor will make. Both the low Qts and the high damping factor in the amp are indications of "damping". You can lower that damping with the resistor. Very thin cables can have the same effect. So the woofer is not do tightly controlled. Sometimes needed to get any bass at all.
Thanks fellas. :notworthy: I see many kinds of 10w resistors here at Parts Express. What ohm do I need? :dunno: http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?FTR=10w+resistor&search_type=main&WebPage_ID=3&searchFilter=10w+resistor&x=0&y=0 (http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?FTR=10w+resistor&search_type=main&WebPage_ID=3&searchFilter=10w+resistor&x=0&y=0)
I'm using the Virtue One with 30v/130w PS into Horn Shoppe rear loaded Horn speakers with a 4" Fostex driver. I understand the Horns like low damping. In the Nelson Pass article on damping, he mentions 47 ohm resistors and then states you'll want a solid state amp of 300w and use 50w resistors for his experiment. :dunno:
BTW, here's that Nelson Pass article to which Welborne referred, in case anyone is interested:http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/cs-amps-speakers.pdf (http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/cs-amps-speakers.pdf)
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What Nelson is talking about with the 47R resistor is a little different. He's turning a voltage source amp (like the Virtue) into a current source amp. I do NOT recommend this with the Virtue unless you have an impedance compensation circuit.
The Virtue is not designed to run into a high impedance load.
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Ah.
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But don't lose hope! If I get a little time, I will try to come up with a simple circuit that will let you turn the Virtue into a current source amp.
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But don't lose hope! If I get a little time, I will try to come up with a simple circuit that will let you turn the Virtue into a current source amp.
Sounds pretty cool! I'm guessing it would be smaller and less expensive than a First Watt F1 or F2? :thumb:
I was just trying to figure out which resistor value I needed to address the damping, if I'm understanding that right.
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Still here on the "Third Stone from The Sun" just swamped at work. Still loving my dual Virtue One set up - it still has the abilities to completely astound me. :drool: Quite happy with it, but of course I look forward to the next "sleek machine" Seth delivers. In no rush great things take time! :D