[NagysAudio]

JeffB - During the logo display, the blacks were blacker on the LEDs because the LED technology can turn the LEDs off in the dark areas, giving you the purest of black. Plasmas can't do that. The LED technology is so good right now, that it really is on the same level as plasmas and even better in some cases like on the logo display.

zybar - Nearly every big budget movie in the next 2 years will either be filmed in 3D, or converted to 3D in post.

[NagysAudio]

It wasn't motion blur that srb brought up. That's a totally different issue. And motion blur is actually less of a problem on LCD TVs, that's one of the reasons why LCD TVs are recommended for gaming.

[zybar]

I have always heard people talk about how much better plasma tvs are, but I haven't really seen it.  I went this weekend to Best Buy specifically to analyze this.  I came away very disappointed with the experience.  Every TV has such different color, and sometimes brightness, noise, video content, etc.  And you never have a reference color to know which one is close.  Is there somewhere one can go where TVs are better calibrated on display?
As for the plasmas at Best Buy vs the LEDs or even LCDs, none of the plasmas were as bright, and none had as good of blacks, and all had more noise.  It did appear to me that the plasmas might have had a richer palette of colors.  In comparison the LED/LCDs seem to snap on more pure shades of color.  At first glance this makes the LED/LCD color jump out more, but I think it might not be as correct.  The plasmas also have reflective glass which I find annoying.
I had one thought with respect to the blacks.  This is most noticeable when the Best Buy logo appears, which is a yellow background with black text.  On the LCDs the black looked deep black and on the plasmas it was a very very light black, like the sky at dusk instead of at night.  Perhaps this is the dynamic contrast of the LCDs kicking in when there are essentially only two colors on the display.  I am not totally sure if this holds under normal movie watching.  The black level difference were massive differences.

Jeff,

Unfortunately, trying to evaluate any tv at stores like Best Buy is a futile exercise.  The tv's not only aren't calibrated to their fullest potential, they are usually calibrated in such a manner that they negatively impact the picture isn a pretty substantial way.  Also, the lighting is so far removed from what is typical in a home environment, that it kills any chance of seeing what the tv is really capable of.

As for how to test or know what is right...you need to see reference material on a properly (preferably professionally) calibrated tv.  Once you see that for yourself, you will realize how far from "real" the picture is on most tv's.  It might take you a bit to get used to a properly calibrated tv, but it really does make a difference.

George

[Bob in St. Louis]

I'm sure every display unit at Best Buy has been calibrated to the 'nth' degree. The highly lit isle of an electronics store where you're 5' away from a 50" tv is absolutely the best place, and best situation on the face of the earth to audition this type of electronic equipment.
James Cameron has said so. I check it on Snopes, they agree.
So there.

Now, on a personal note....
My 50" Samsung plasma doesn't make any noise unless my ear is within 12" of it. The picture quality is fantastic. Now that i think about it, I can't recall anybody, ever, not liking the picture quality of any plasma, ever. In the history of E*V*E*R.
Any what if there will be no more plasma units past next week. Buy yours today and be thankful of the great deal you got. The rest is silliness.

Oh. I like Samsung. Did I mention that?
They seem to be "the one" who is highest regarded at this point in time.
 
Looks like it's time to grab your popcorn, cause this is gonna be an interesting chat.

Bob

[NagysAudio]

James Cameron is the man, so if he said so...

Actually, James Cameron recommends a 100" Panasonic 3D plasma. So I guess he's a plasma kind of guy. He watched most of Avatar's dailies on it.

But since the state of the art 100" Panasonic plasma is not within OP's budget. Samsung's 3D LED LCD reigns king!

[JeffB]

I know some were talking about audio noise.
When I mentioned noise it was video noise.

Are there any retail chain stores where one can find calibrated TV sets?
Or are they hard to find like good high-end audio stores these days?

[Dan Driscoll]

Samsung LED LCD TVs are pretty much the best there is these days. Stay away from plasma, it offers nothing over an LED LCD and plasma TVs are very noisy in quiet rooms, they buzz.

Perhaps older or low end plasma models buzz, but newer models from Panasonic are completely inaudible from more than a couple of feet. That's probably true for most modern plasmas, but 2009 & 2010 Pannys are the only ones I checked.

At your budget, you can get a new Samsung 40" LED LCD TV with 3D capability.

No, he can't. The lowest retail price I could find for a 40" 3d LED Sansung was $1,700. There was one on eBay for $1,450, but shipping would put it over his budget and really, do you want to buy a $1,500 TV on eBay that won't have a warranty?

Since 3D is here to stay and all future 3D films will be release in 3D on Blu Ray, there's no reason not to have a 3D capable TV. Especially considering how inexpensive they are right now.

Interesting that the only independent review of 3D plasmas vs. 3D LCD so far gives the edge in picture quality to the Panasonic plasma. Link 1

There's also some question about the true resolution of 3D on an LCD display.
Article

I do agree that 3D is here to stay, although I also think the koolaid is making you giddy about the adoption rate. To date there has been exactly ONE movie shot in the modern digital 3D format, Avatar. Every other one was converted from 2D in post and they have artifact issues, as well as problems with light levels.  And I don't consider $1,500 "inexpensive" for a 40" LCD, either.

3D is here and it's not going away, but it's going to be quite a while before even a moderate percentage of movies are shot in 3D. And no matter how good it gets, the glasses are still a major PITA, especially if you already have to wear glasses. Major adoption of 3D in the mass market will not happen until one of the glasses-free 3D technologies achieves market viability, IMO.

[NagysAudio]

Avatar is the only movie filmed in stereoscopic 3D? You must have not been to the movies since 2004! There are dozens and dozens of films filmed in stereoscopic 3D and even more are coming this year and the next. Take a look at this list: http://marketsaw.blogspot.com/2007/04/list-of-upcoming-3d-movies.html

The resolution is the same regardless of plasma, or LCD. Both left and right eye are displayed in 1080P. That article is from a plasma fansite, it's biased.

Audible buzzing sound from a few feet away is extremely annoying, especially in a smaller room and when one's watching TV at low volumes at night. I've checked the latest Samsung plasmas and Panasonic plasmas and they buzz as loud as ever.

While you are correct that the lowest price right now for a Samsung 40" 3D TV is around $1700, it should be coming down in the next few months. It's definitely worth the wait! Plus there will be other LCD LED 3D TVs coming out like, the Vizio, at much lower prices.

[srb]

Audible buzzing sound from a few feet away is extremely annoying, especially in a smaller room and when one's watching TV at low volumes at night. I've checked the latest Samsung plasmas and Panasonic plasmas and they buzz as loud as ever.

I have a two year old Panasonic Plasma, and I can only hear buzzing from 12" or closer when I am behind the TV.  I have a small room and listen late at night with low volume.
 
Steve

[Dan Driscoll]

Avatar is the only movie filmed in stereoscopic 3D?

"Stereoscopic 3D" is a generic term for any 3D movie filmed with 2 offset cameras. In that sense, yes, Avatar is a stereoscopic 3D movie. Which is similar to saying that Mt. St. Helens and Kilauea are both volcanoes; technically correct but completely different.

Cameron spent years designing the cameras and f/x specifically for Avatar, no other move made has used the technology and software that Cameron used for Avatar.

The resolution is the same regardless of plasma, or LCD. Both left and right eye are displayed in 1080P. That article is from a plasma fansite, it's biased.

The same company also runs the LED TV Buying Guide, the DLP Review and The 3D TV Buying Guide. Not quite a fansite type of operation, IMO.

Audible buzzing sound from a few feet away is extremely annoying, especially in a smaller room and when one's watching TV at low volumes at night. I've checked the latest Samsung plasmas and Panasonic plasmas and they buzz as loud as ever.

If you can hear a buzz under even those conditions, then fine, you should avoid plasma. However, it seems that very few other people share your sensitivity.

While you are correct that the lowest price right now for a Samsung 40" 3D TV is around $1700, it should be coming down in the next few months. It's definitely worth the wait! Plus there will be other LCD LED 3D TVs coming out like, the Vizio, at much lower prices.

Meaningless, since that's the case with all technology, including plasma.

[hometheaterdoc]

This topic is a prime reason why I don't surf specific subject matters and stopped surfing at AVS Forum for the most part.  The amount of mis-information just aggravates the crap out of me.  Both technologies have their positives and negatives.  End users simply have to be educated on all the issues and concerns and make an informed, educated decision on which compromises they can live with and which they can't.

1)  I have yet to watch a single LCD television where I didn't see motion blur issues.  Will the original poster see them?  Who knows.  If you can't see them, count your blessings and enjoy the term "ignorance is bliss".  I wish I was like you.  But just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.  The closest I've seen to taming them is in the newer 240hz models... which are still pricey if my price sheet lookups are any indication.  Plus, while reduced, I can still see the issue.  It drives me bonkers when watching sports especially.  I don't know if the original poster would see it.  But he did indicate that he watches everything on the set, including sports.  So it should be something to consider in the purchase decision.

2)  The recommendation of using an LCD for gaming seems to be born more out of an issue with image retention and burn in on older plasmas than any specific improvements of LCD over plasma.  If you are going to sit there and have static images with the TV in torch mode for 16 hours a day, some models of plasma will exhibit image retention that takes a bit of normal viewing to get rid of.  Most of the modern day plasmas can be run in torch mode with static images for 2000+ hours straight before permanent burn-in occurs.  But I've personally viewed image retention issues with LCD as well.  Image retention is a very real consideration for some and is noticable on a number of manufacturer's plasma models.  It's something to consider before purchase.

3)  Common brand name televisions have less than zero profit margin in them unless you are a large warehouse outfit that commits to big yearly volume or a big box store like Best Buy or Sears where they can leverage volume to get reduced pricing from manufacturers.  For smaller volume outfits trying to be competitive with internet pricing from very reliable vendors like newegg or amazon, etc. means your sale price you need to meet is often less than the distributor is charging you for the set.  So the chances of finding the affordable common brands well setup in a dedicated store with good calibration is virtually nill in most parts of the country, imo.   I often help a customer pick out a TV and then point them to the most reliable online or local source to buy it as often my distribution cost is higher than the retail cost from online vendors.  Plus there is the lack of sales tax to consider since this country doesn't have mandated inter state sales tax collection.  The end result of the drive to get prices down is that flat panels have been commoditized and your choices to view them before buying are limited to the god awful enivironments of places like Best Buy.  You're never going to be able to truly know what a set can do if you are basing your opinion on how it looks straight out of the box, plugged into a split closed circuit feed under all the flor. lighting of a big box store.  Because an LCD is natively brighter than an equivalent plasma in almost all instances, it's going to have an advantage in that environment because it can use it's brightness to power through the lighting of the store.  Get it home in a more muted, light controlled environment and plasma pulls ahead in watchable picture quality.

4)  ALL televisions have the potential to buzz, both LCD and plasma.  Some manufacturers and some models are more prevalent than others...but they all have the potential if not designed well or some issue with parts rears its ugly head in production.  I finally basically gave away a 42" LCD to a friend a few months back that you could hear from another room... it easily had a 70dB audible buzz while turned on and the other 3 I've seen of that model did the same thing.  I've got a 60" LG plasma here that you can't hear even with your ear directly up to the back of the unit.   I've got a 28" Toshiba LCD in a guest bedroom that buzzes non-stop when in use.  If online postings to message boards are to be believed and take as representative samples of the units in the field, Samsung has had a few more buzzing plasma models in recent years than the competition.  But they all experience it to some degree.

5)  Plasmas in larger sizes have a distinct price advantage over LED LCD.  Try finding a 60" LED LCD from a major manufacturer for $1700.00.  You can find a very nice 60" 1080P plasma for that price.

As I said in my original reply to this topic, LCD is much, much improved and the differences are getting smaller.  But for my dollar, plasma is still king.  I can deal with the image retention issues of plasma.  I can't deal with the motion blur problems with LCD.  I prefer the look of a plasma over LCD as well.  If plasma really is on the way out (and it appears it is because of cost to manufacture not any inherent advantage of LCD over plasma), then that's sad.  I'll keep using my plasmas as long as I can keep them running. 

[srb]

Good post, Shane.  I looked for any points that I might disagree with, but couldn't find any.
 
Steve

[hometheaterdoc]

Thanks!  There's been some very thoughtful and informative information shared in this thread.... and some not.  I was just trying to help clarify some things if I could.

[satfrat]

And no matter how good it gets, the glasses are still a major PITA, especially if you already have to wear glasses. Major adoption of 3D in the mass market will not happen until one of the glasses-free 3D technologies achieves market viability, IMO.

Gotta disagree Dan,,, I've been to quite a few 3D movies in both regular theatres and in IMAX, I wear glasses, and I found todays 3D glasses to be fairly comfortable when placed over my regular glasses. Even during the lengthy Avatar movie, I had no actual discomfort from them myself. Maybe it's just me?
 
Cheers,
Robin

[NagysAudio]

Dan Driscoll - So what if that particular camera was co-developed by Cameron for Avatar? Many similar cameras have been around for a while and they do virtually the same thing. Furthermore, Cameron/Pace/Sony's 3D Fusion camera has been used for many other movies besides Avatar (Final Destination, Aliens of the Deep, Hannah Montana, U2, Jonas Brothers, etc., etc., etc.). True stereoscopic films have been made since 2004 (it doesn't matter if they use a 3D virtual camera i.e. 3D animated films like Monsters vs. Aliens, or a physical set up with two cameras side by side, i.e. Avatar (part of), My Bloody Valentine, Final Destination, etc.).

Cameron has developed many other technologies for Avatar, many of which have to do with visual effects, but that is not what's being discussed here.

hometheaterdoc - True, some LCD TVs buzz as well. But where 95% of all plasmas buzz, only maybe 20% of LCDs do. The new LED TVs are dead quiet.

[Dan Driscoll]

Gotta disagree Dan,,, I've been to quite a few 3D movies in both regular theatres and in IMAX, I wear glasses, and I found todays 3D glasses to be fairly comfortable when placed over my regular glasses. Even during the lengthy Avatar movie, I had no actual discomfort from them myself. Maybe it's just me?

Hi Robin,

Certainly some people will be able to wear the glasses comfortably, while people like me will always find them unacceptable.

FWIW, my Pioneer RPTV is dying, so I've been looking at replacement options for the past few weeks. On Saturday we went to a stand-alone Magnolia and they had the new 50" Panny V20 set-up for 3D demos. I do agree that it was the best 3D I've seen and that the new sync'd shutter glasses are much less uncomfortable. But at least for me, that's not good enough. If I could wear just the shutter glasses it probably would have been fine, but not when I have to wear them over my regular glasses.

What disappointed me most was that I wasn't able to see the V20 in 2D mode. I went there specifically to see it and/or a G model to compare to the 2009 models.

[hometheaterdoc]

hometheaterdoc - True, some LCD TVs buzz as well. But where 95% of all plasmas buzz, only maybe 20% of LCDs do. The new LED TVs are dead quiet.

Based on what source?  I'd love to see the independent verification of your made up numbers..... 

[hometheaterdoc]

Certainly some people will be able to wear the glasses comfortably, while people like me will always find them unacceptable.

And some of us will find the technology completely unacceptable glasses or not.  JVC's demo is the only one I made it through at CES without getting as much of a raging headache and motion sickness as the others.... it was still distracting and tough to get through.... and the demonstration was not worth sitting through, imo....  My better half vomited at the Panasonic 3D demo and I came close.  I have perfect 20/20 vision with no visual issues that should impede my enjoyment of the tech.  If this is the future, I'm happy to be an old curmudgeon and wish for the good ol' days...

[NagysAudio]

hometheaterdoc - They are made up numbers (rough estimates) from my personal experience. I've sold virtually ALL higher end plasmas and LCD TVs.

[murphy11]

Stay away from plasma...  plasma TVs are very noisy in quiet rooms, they buzz.

Wrong. See comment below.

I've checked the latest Samsung plasmas and Panasonic plasmas and they buzz as loud as ever.

Have you listened to the Panasonic 54" V10?  I did not believe your statement that all plasmas buzz because I never heard any buzz on my 54"V10. Sure enough it does buzz - from 6". I had to stick my ear behind the set to hear anything, but I could hear nothing 12" from in front of set with volume off in a dead quiet room.

I searched for a Panasonic 50"V10 to see if it could be had for under 1500, but couldn't find it anywhere. I love my V10 and highly recommend it. If interested, DanD mentions in an earlier post that it can be had for under 1500 so PM him if you are interested. JeffB, I noticed your comment was about video and not audio buzz and I don't see video noise on my set.