Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....

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scottm_dj

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Just wanted to chime in on this hot topic as it's been a while since an years-earlier thread has been commented on. Yes Manic Moose is still the only real option for BDP control (overpriced Roon notwithstanding), but you know what.. it's a SOUND that ultimately matters and I've directly compared it with Roon using my Oppo 205 (Roon direct to Oppo and BDP3 connected USB Bus2 to same device--with high-res Qobuz as the source)...and MM interface simply blows the doors off the Roon SQ.  And my system which consists of a state-of-the-art Audio Research preamp and Cary amp will reveal every little nuance.  Sure its not as pretty but it bests it in the category that's most important.. and now that Roon is owned by one of the more questionable business-practiced companies around (yeah i said it), that's even more reason to avoid it.   I mean I personally was luckily enough to literally almost be given the BDP3 device by a friend that was getting completely out of the hobby, so yeah I'm going to give it a nice long leash to see if I can make it work.   I have to say I'm extremely impressed with the hardware design and bulletproof build of the unit itself--it just oozes quality.

As I'm sure Chris and James at Bryson would agree, the streaming era has created a whole new world of issues because the control app is so important to the overall satisfaction. A Hi-Fi company, especially a "pro-originated" company like Bryson just is not used to dealing with the software side of things... and not only is outsourcing programming super expensive, it also takes control out of their hands and let's just say many programmers are not exactly the most diligent people in the world.. I for one fully understand why it's taking so long to get a replacement because of their exacting standards...so sure MM can be clunky & sometimes doesn't play nice even if you just try to skip tracks forward (and I still haven't figured out how to scan *through* a track!)...but the sound is ultimately what matters and Manic Moose sounds has that in spades.

One more definite thing to note.  I contacted Chris with an internet radio station that I thought everyone would really like to have that sounds fantastic in FLAC.    Most services only offer it in MP3 format which pales in comparison to the better bit rate version. It was not available on the typical B radio, but In a matter of days Chris researched it's URL and it was added--you should be able to check it out for yourself under the favorites section in the media player (pureclassix).   Truly a fantastic all-encompassing playlist from this Dutch webstation.  I don't think there's many companies that would add something like that so fast if it wasn't already embedded in their system...

So thanks Chris and James for making the most of what you've got now in Manic Moose.   Sure after a decade
its about due for an overhaul to keep competitive... but don't settle until you get the all-important sound quality aspect perfect.  I along with everyone else I'm looking forward to what future software endeavors may bring :)

Highendfool

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #1 on: 19 Feb 2024, 01:42 pm »
I’m completely baffled by how you think the control app has ANY affect on sound quality!
Please explain. I’m quite electronically savvy, so details are welcome.

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #2 on: 19 Feb 2024, 02:06 pm »
Simple... it's not just the control app..its the transfer protocol.. Roon uses RAAT as a transport protocol, while Manic Moose/MPD uses...well...something else, and whatever it is just has superior sound quality. I read it in a BDP review saying as such... and I personally tested it with my own highly revealing system with the higher-end equipment I previously mentioned. This is just streaming high-res Qobuz was the only comparison I was able to make because I had no local files at the time.  Of course there's no comparison when it comes to the ease of use/GUI category...but that's not what I'm talking about.  I mean different strokes for different folks, but I think it sounds significantly better.  So I'm sticking to my post:-)

gbaby

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #3 on: 19 Feb 2024, 02:31 pm »
Just wanted to chime in on this hot topic as it's been a while since an years-earlier thread has been commented on. Yes Manic Moose is still the only real option for BDP control (overpriced Roon notwithstanding), but you know what.. it's a SOUND that ultimately matters and I've directly compared it with Roon using my Oppo 205 (Roon direct to Oppo and BDP3 connected USB Bus2 to same device--with high-res Qobuz as the source)...and MM interface simply blows the doors off the Roon SQ.  And my system which consists of a state-of-the-art Audio Research preamp and Cary amp will reveal every little nuance.  Sure its not as pretty but it bests it in the category that's most important.. and now that Roon is owned by one of the more questionable business-practiced companies around (yeah i said it), that's even more reason to avoid it.   I mean I personally was luckily enough to literally almost be given the BDP3 device by a friend that was getting completely out of the hobby, so yeah I'm going to give it a nice long leash to see if I can make it work.   I have to say I'm extremely impressed with the hardware design and bulletproof build of the unit itself--it just oozes quality.

As I'm sure Chris and James at Bryson would agree, the streaming era has created a whole new world of issues because the control app is so important to the overall satisfaction. A Hi-Fi company, especially a "pro-originated" company like Bryson just is not used to dealing with the software side of things... and not only is outsourcing programming super expensive, it also takes control out of their hands and let's just say many programmers are not exactly the most diligent people in the world.. I for one fully understand why it's taking so long to get a replacement because of their exacting standards...so sure MM can be clunky & sometimes doesn't play nice even if you just try to skip tracks forward (and I still haven't figured out how to scan *through* a track!)...but the sound is ultimately what matters and Manic Moose sounds has that in spades.

One more definite thing to note.  I contacted Chris with an internet radio station that I thought everyone would really like to have that sounds fantastic in FLAC.    Most services only offer it in MP3 format which pales in comparison to the better bit rate version. It was not available on the typical B radio, but In a matter of days Chris researched it's URL and it was added--you should be able to check it out for yourself under the favorites section in the media player (pureclassix).   Truly a fantastic all-encompassing playlist from this Dutch webstation.  I don't think there's many companies that would add something like that so fast if it wasn't already embedded in their system...

So thanks Chris and James for making the most of what you've got now in Manic Moose.   Sure after a decade
its about due for an overhaul to keep competitive... but don't settle until you get the all-important sound quality aspect perfect.  I along with everyone else I'm looking forward to what future software endeavors may bring :)

Excellent post. You are correct; its the sound that matters and Manic Moose has it in spades. 8) Personally, I hope Manic Moose does not change because I don't want to undergo another learning curve. I just want to select and play, and that's what the Moose does.  8)

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #4 on: 19 Feb 2024, 03:42 pm »
@scottm_dj What is the ROON core running on, the Oppo?

Highendfool

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #5 on: 19 Feb 2024, 04:08 pm »
Simple... it's not just the control app..its the transfer protocol.. Roon uses RAAT as a transport protocol, while Manic Moose/MPD uses...well...something else, and whatever it is just has superior sound quality. I read it in a BDP review saying as such... and I personally tested it with my own highly revealing system with the higher-end equipment I previously mentioned. This is just streaming high-res Qobuz was the only comparison I was able to make because I had no local files at the time.  Of course there's no comparison when it comes to the ease of use/GUI category...but that's not what I'm talking about.  I mean different strokes for different folks, but I think it sounds significantly better.  So I'm sticking to my post:-)

I’m not sure you understand what you read, because the” transport protocol “ has nothing to do with the audio signal.
The whole MM discussion is based around who likes the interface and who has problems with its performance. Not the performance of the BDA-3 or 3.14 itself.
No one has disputed the audio capabilities of the DAC .
Many of us complain about the outdated interface as well as the “ bugs” that still plague Manic Moose.
I won’t give you my list of issues, because it will just fire up the defenders that have no issues with it,
But believe me, there are valid issues. That’s why it’s being rewritten and in beta test right now.

By the way... Regilian is a good app that works well and has no problems with the BDA-3 & 3.14.
(Not sure if it’s Mac only)
Glad you like your Bryston! ✌🏻

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #6 on: 19 Feb 2024, 04:26 pm »
Also, what a coincidentally timely post.  I just flipped back from ROON to the BDP-pi to listen to some local files and decided to listen to Radio Paradise app when I noticed the pureclassix entry and asking myself when did I add that.   So I selected that instead of RP.  Kicked off by playing some disco song and initially thinking that sound purdy dang good.  I am totally trashed from a day of skiing and over 4 hours behind the wheel of the car and just winding down before bed and readying the news, so not that attentive.  But after a several tracks I am thinking I dont think I have ever heard ZZ top sound that good.  Given I dont generally select that band when playing stuff on my main rig.  But after half dozen tracks I am looking at the bit rate and checking the website to see what in the hell is sounding this good.  Frankly it was shockingly noticeable.

So is that entry just running off a URL stream or is it an implementation like Radio Paradise?  But the entry in MM says OGG not FLAC.

Regardless thanks Chris!

HIFI Obsessed

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #7 on: 19 Feb 2024, 05:05 pm »
The pureclassix radio station is my go to radio station for background music and love it. I did noticed it on MM radio early Jan of this year. It was shown on my BDP-pi but not on my BDP-2....long story short Chris was able to fix my issue.

I would like to see the end user able to save there own local radio stations on MM in there new OS update.


Anthony

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #8 on: 19 Feb 2024, 05:11 pm »
@highendfool

The comparisons I have seen are ROON Vs MPD.  Not specifically the BDPs

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #9 on: 19 Feb 2024, 05:30 pm »
I would like to see the end user able to save there own local radio stations on MM in there new OS update.

You currently can add if it's in a "playlist" format, but this was not. In case you're interested & want to listen to it maybe on a computer desktop or something away from your system...here's the web URL. It's just fascinating watch the tracklist go from Beatles to Boston to maybe some old 80s Icehouse and back to the '60s again--all with well above-average sound   To the person who listened it to it after skiing... Glad you enjoyed it :-).  Yes it does have August the end but I believe it's FLAC (16bit/900Kb) quality as I tested it somewhere.
https://mscp4.live-streams.nl:8142/lounge.ogg

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #10 on: 19 Feb 2024, 06:12 pm »
Many of us complain about the outdated interface as well as the “ bugs” that still plague Manic Moose.

Oh yeah there's no doubt I've noticed my share of bugs already. Namely it's much smoother to skip through tracks in a playlist from the virtual front panel than it is from the media player webap. And I think I mentioned I still haven't figured out how to scan through tracks themselves.   Also if you use an Android phone it has a quirk with Qobuz searches where they don't always show... which is a bit inconvenient. 

I still have not loaded up any local files because most of mine are (SACD) ISO image files from my original discs which it will not play...and I haven't had time to extract them.

But this post is about the audio quality of MM/MPD--like when you finally built up a playlist and just let it run and don't mess with it....how it actually sounds.  In my particular case was a comparison of Roon's RAAT directly to my Oppo and the BDP3 through  both USB and Coax Oppo--the Bryston connection still sounded better.   Curiously I'm very familiar with the differences between PCM and DSD and in my tests USB connections sounded like DSD (fuller and more rounded soundscape) and Coax sounded like PCM (sharper and more concise).   Obviously you can only carry true DSD material over usb, but this was just a Q stream. Considering you have both Coax, Optical and three USB flavors...that's a lot of tweaking you can do.

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #11 on: 19 Feb 2024, 06:34 pm »
So @ scottm_dj,what is hosting the ROON core (apologies if I missed that in previous post)?

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #12 on: 19 Feb 2024, 07:25 pm »
I trried two laptops installing the Roon core.  An Asus i7 with 8 gigs of memory and a newer HP i5 with 16 gigs of memory.   The HP definitely did better than the Asus but still Roon is a very CPU intensive program that could use some refinement/optimization on that side of things.  Especially on the Asus computer, I saw memory usage go up to like 1500 KB which is a whole lot.

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #13 on: 19 Feb 2024, 08:07 pm »
My Anecdote:

I did a ROON trial and installed it on an an iMAC and use the Pi as an endpoint -> WADIA DAC.  Intentions were just to test the interface only to see if it worth the investment.  While fiddling about I flipped back to the Pi  while playing the Radio Paradise app.  The SQ was significant.  The Pi was so much better I noticed it strait away.   Did some research on it and found many peoples discussing how running the ROON core on a laptop was suboptimal and  no way to test SQ.  Further digging lead me to taking a bit of a gamble and investing in SGC Sonic Transport to host the Core, only gonna be out $1K and could recover much of that if I was dissatisfied.  Headless, fanless , Fedora Linux OS developed especially for streaming application (ROON, BubbleUpnp, Hqplayeretc) .   I Moved  the host into the rack and hard wired everything with some better quality ethernet cabling. Bang. Now ROON is right at the door of the Pi for SQ.  If I really want to go critical I switch back to the Pi and sometimes I can't tell the difference.  When I look at the activity monitors on the Sonic Transport during streaming it barely registers.   

GSDaudio

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #14 on: 19 Feb 2024, 08:22 pm »
Very confusing:

BDP-3.  Awesome sounding
Manic Moose.   Awesome sounding.

MPD early version is the industry standard and the best IMHO.    Everything else is trying to improve it.   

Unfortunately,  the MPD folks are forcing the industry to pay/share in newer versions.

Manic Moose is great but improvement will be hard to come by.

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #15 on: 19 Feb 2024, 10:30 pm »
Further digging lead me to taking a bit of a gamble and investing in SGC Sonic Transport to host the Core

Speaking of, I went to a local audio show this past weekend and one device really impressed me. I don't want to mention the brand in here but not only was it a streamer, a DAC, a 6W headphone amp, a phono preamp, plus analog audio inputs..but it was a full blown I-5 11th generation Roon core with 4TB of storage as well!   All-in-one indeed.   If I was Roon user and had five grand to spend, this would immediately be on my target list.



scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #16 on: 19 Feb 2024, 11:02 pm »
Just curious....for folks who have a bdp3 hooked up into their DAC... What output/input are you using for preferred sound?  With the 3 you literally have a choice of coaxial, optical, and three flavors of specific USB outputs (2.0, 3.0 main, & 3.0 dedicated bus).   I also tried HDMI into my Oppo but that didn't work. In fact, what is the bdp3 HDMI used for because the manual makes absolutely no mention of it whatsoever.  I'm guessing it has something to do with the companion BDA 3 DAC..

jobiwon

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #17 on: 19 Feb 2024, 11:38 pm »
My Pi has usb,coax,toslink.  I have tested coax and toslink and could not really tell a difference so stuck with Coax cause I had a good cable and the manual says the following.

"Prior to powering on your BDP-π, connect your
BDP-π to your DAC using one of the four different
methods described above. The most desirable
connection depends on your DAC. Typically, S/PDIF
will be better sounding than TOSLINK. USB offers
very high sound quality (perhaps even superior to S/
PDIF) when coupled with asynchronous USB DACs "

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #18 on: 20 Feb 2024, 01:28 pm »
One thing I do miss that was allowed with Roon direct to my Oppo is getting the interface "image"  on the TV screen.  I'm pretty sure the HDMI out of the BEP3 is Audio only, so there's really no way to get an image to the TV through it....

scottm_dj

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Re: Manic Moose revisted....again. New BDP3 user's take....
« Reply #19 on: 20 Feb 2024, 09:17 pm »
Oh and here's one thing that really surprised me... In addition to the three USB flavors I tried the Coax with a "regular"  adapter over the BNC... and it sounds noticeably better than all three USB versions!  The USB connections have a distinct lack of taut bass and defined soundstage--instead it's much more expanded yet bloated is I guess is a word you could use. Again, this is very system dependent, but I have a very revealing AR/Cary analog rig and I'm much prefer the Coax input from the Bryson BDP3 to my Oppo 205.  Now I know why PS Audio invented the i2s connector!

That said, I ran across some truly excellent cables that I use for my regular analog cabling (including turntable) and since they're 75ohm I use it for the digital connection and it performs just as well.   Hopefully this is allowed here but in case you're looking for some quality interconnect cables that won't break the bank, either analog or digital, check this site out. SIX of them in a good old legendary DVD audio/SACD configuration can be had for just over $100 for half-meter length...and I put these up against Synergistic Research and others big boys and they hold their own. Truly an excellent Canare-based cable with nice lock tight connector ends too--especially for the price!   Cables matter for sure.. but why pay a fortune for them?   When I get my Schiit Syn to matrix out my two channel audio to multi-channel...you better believe these are the cables are going to use to do it.
https://www.cs1.net/products/canare/LV-61S_precision_SACD.htm