[BikeWNC]

Last year, I was given a Technics SL1200 MKII tt from a friend.  After some research over on AA I found it was considered both trash by many and well loved by seemingly the same number.  But the camps were firmly divided.  

I had some experience with DD tts as I had/have a Marantz 6300 from my college days.  I never really liked that table, perhaps not getting it dialed in right or finding the correct cartidge for it.  The Technics felt different though in that it was built quite sturdily.  It had been quite a while since I played vinyl when it was added to my system.  WOW I thought how lush vinyl sounded.  But after some time, the usual audiphool issues started to nag at me.  Bass that was too loose, an unfocused image and blurry highs bothered me.  I read about some of the KAB mods and gave the PS, footer and tonearm mods a try.  Great improvement.  Many months went by as I listened to the 1200 until I got irked again.  

I wasn't very satisfied with the Grado gold cartidge I was using on this table.  While lively and fun to listen to, it had some sibilance and tracking issues that just could not be sorted out.  When I saw a member here selling a KAB Groovemaster cartidge I decided to give it a try.  At first the Groovemaster was very dark in my system.  Where were the highs?  The bass was very dominant and the mid-range while very smooth, recessed.  No amount of VTF/VTA adjustment would change the tonal balance of this cartidge for me.  I had read that 47K load might not be high enough for this pickup and thought it was to be short lived with me.  

Enter Herbies Way Exellent Deluxe TT Mat with grungebuster dots.  In the course of my research there had been conflicting advice as to the use of the stock heavy rubber mat with the 1200.  I swapped the stock mat for the Herbies and BAM!, as Emeril would say, the bass tightened up, tonal balance evened, mid-range moved up in the soundstage and the highs I thought the Groovemaster didn't possess came around.  That's alot of change from a $58 item.  I guess it's synergy.  Whatever it is this is one change that will stay.  Highly recommended on this table.

Never one to stop tweaking, I've ordered Mapleshade threaded footers for the 1200 to replace the mushy ones, a 2 inch maple board and sandbox all to improve isolation.  We'll see how that helps, or not, in the next couple of weeks.

Andy

[lcrim]

Count me in the camp of those that love the Technics 1200 MKII especially after the KAB mods.  I also have the "Groovemaster" cartridge but w/ a different stylus assembly.  My TT was dialed in by Kevin Barrett, as I live near KAB.  I've always found it to have terrific dynamics and to be very coherent from top to bottom.
I recently upgraded my phono stage to a Jolida JD-9 and retubed it w/ Sovtek 12AX7-LPS from the installed Chinese made tubes.  The dip switches w/ this cartridge are set to 47000 ohm loading and the capacitance was set @ 100 Pico Fared.  
I'm pretty satisfied w/ the sound and use the stock heavy rubber mat turned over and have always done so per Kevin's suggestion.  If the Herbie's mat is that big an improvement, I may give it a try.

[TheChairGuy]

Good timing on this post. My Herbie's Way Excellent Mat arrived about a week ago and I've been messing around with it.

I have a JVC QL-A2 (my reasoning was that JVC is wholly owned division of Panasonic, so it may have the excellent quartz lock system in common with much more expensive Technics SL-1200 unit).  It was only $50 on ebay....and auto return (which I LOVE   ). It's also Direct Drive.

Anyhow, I was alternating between the Audioquest Sorbothane (deadened everything), stock rubber 4mm mat (didn't do much wrong, nor much right) and my own version of 'Non-Felt' mat made from Griptex shelf liner.  Of the three the Griptex mat was preferred.

Enter Herbie's.  Steve Herbelin actually talked me out of the 2x more expensive Grungebuster mat and into the $58.50 one with slightly thicker silicone foam backing for my needs.

At first, it made everthing overdamped and I was unhappy.  It quieted the background, but dynamics were muted.  I removed 12 dts from the mat and, BAM!, absolutely stunning sound now.  I took off another 6 dots and it lost tightness now...so back on went 4 dots.  About right now...with 16 dots.

It's a real good upgrade, I suppose, for most...but you do need to be attentive to it.  Way to go, Beat!

Larry/lcrim, I upgraded tubes too in my pre...got rid of those Sovtek 6922's (they were better than a couple more expensive NOS tubes I tried), but 6922's all sound weird in the treble.  My pre takes 2 6dj8/6922 in line and 2 each 6922 and 12ax7 in Phono (6 in total)I swapped in 6n1p's in the secondary phono spot and, BAM! (again), another step in the right direction for my vinyl rig.

I already have the Sovtek 12ax7LPS in the primary phono slots - they were way better than the shot/old Telefunkens in there previously. It's a really great new made tube, that one.

Viva le vinyl    

[BikeWNC]

The good thing about any Herbie's product is the 90 day return policy.  If you don't like it send it back.

Andy

[TheChairGuy]

The good thing about any Herbie's product is the 90 day return policy.  If you don't like it send it back.

Andy

Yuppers.

I just diddled with the mat some more - did you get the Herbie's with the grungebuster dots or the fixed mat?  Steve Herbelin talked me into the one with the dots and I'm darn glad he did. I never would have thought a mat woudl matter this much a month ago...but there you go; until you try it yourself, you really don't know a damn thing.

24 dots were too much (overdamped), 12 sounded about right.  I then added 6 back in (for 18 total) and it was overdamped again.  So, I backed it down to 10 dots total - and - it's fabulous in here.  I also tried 6 dots and it was all too loose and ill-defined.

It might differ with every record you play, but my piano reference I use (George Winston 'December') the instruments sounds juuuuuust right.  And, it's the hardest instrument, I have found, to get right on a turntable. I'm not going to diddle with every record - just set and (hopefully) forget.

A very good upgrade for $58.50....certainly better sonically than paying only $58.50 more for a cartridge or the like. Still, I am intrigued by the graphite $195 Boston Audio mat  

[BikeWNC]

I bought the mat with the dots.  I haven't tried to tweak the number yet.  I'm just listening and enjoying right now.  

Next chore is to change the RCAs on the phono cable.  Don't know where the break point on money spent on a good RCA is given the tonearm cable itself probably isn't all that great to start.

[TheChairGuy]

One of KAB/Kevin Barrett's upgrades on his standard SL-1200 package, I think, is changing out the rca's (in his case, to Monster Cables).

The guy knows this deck better than anyone outside of Japan, I'd guess it's a worthy upgrade for ya'.  Especially if you solder (which, sadly, I do not...or don't want to attempt again after 20 years).

My rca's are quite pathetic, too, on the JVC.

Play with the dots a bit - it'll be worth it.  As I understand it, if you use a clamp you will likely need less of 'em ('cause record it stuck flat to platter mat and well damped)...if you don't use one you might be happy with all 24 on there. I have an old Ortofon tripod-style clamp that works well for me.

[BikeWNC]

Another damping trick to try is to wrap your tonearm with plumbers teflon tape.  Cut the tape, don't pull it apart, so that it will keep its shape.  Start near the headshell and wrap as far as possible in a single layer.  The tape sticks to itself and is easy to remove if you don't like the effect.  Experiment with different coverage on the tonearm.  Don't forget to rebalance each time you make a change.  

Andy

[stone deaf]

I have both of Herbies TT mats and like the solid grungebuster best when I use them.

[jimdgoulding]

Sixteen dots.  That sounds like 16 ways to like a product.  Just makes it dubious from the git to me.  Not sayin it isn't a great product.  I haven't tried it.

[TheChairGuy]

Jim,

It sounds great with the std. 24 dots on it....it merely sounds better using only 10-12 dots I've found.  Not so dubious at all....it's called critical damping and there is a point where it overdamps the sonics and a point where it is juuuuuust right.  10-12 dots did it for me.

This post is quite old (note), but I have not diddled with the dots since and have left it at 10 the ensuing years.

Jim - you sell custom cut felt for controlling tweeter diffraction (a type of 'damping')...not sure why silicone-type dots would be a dubious tweek to you

John

[jimdgoulding]

With your explanation of the theory and experience with the product, I think I can dig it.  I use what was provided with my Nottingham.  I have used glass with paper fiber (ye old Marcof) and a sticky rubber pad in the past.  Don't remember where that came from.  I'm open to this, after all.   

[Wasatch]

I bought the new Way Excellent II Mat for my Rega P5. Tighten things up a bit, a little better imaging, definitly no more LPs sticking to the mat, less static also. A very good buy.

[Johnny2Bad]

[snip] ...
I have a JVC QL-A2 (my reasoning was that JVC is wholly owned division of Panasonic, so it may have the excellent quartz lock system in common with much more expensive Technics SL-1200 unit).  It was only $50 on ebay....and auto return (which I LOVE  ). It's also Direct Drive.
... [snip]

Just for the sake of historical accuracy, some notes regarding the above.

During the time the Technics tables were available and developed, JVC, Panasonic and Technics were all subsidiaries of Matsushita Electric of Japan.
The major technology of what I will refer to as the "Technics DD system" was the Quartz Lock patent, which allowed the Direct Drive DC motor to reduce flutter to minimal levels. Matsushita licensed the technology to other manufacturers, while continuing to develop improvements, so that when new, the Technics, Panasonic and JVC models were regarded as the best implementations. None the less, other Quartz Lock tables by other manufacturers were certainly competent, so that other brands are at least worth considering.

The SL Series Technics tables also implemented the double-isolated chassis, which was very effective at minimizing and isolating airborne vibrations from the playback system. It is really the combination of Quartz Lock and Double Isolation that made the mid-grade Technics tables so desirable, so if you are looking at an alternative QLDD table from another manufacturer, those two features on the same table are what to look for.

By "Mid Grade" I mean those under the top grade motor assemblies such as SP-10 which were mostly used in broadcast radio stations, due to the near-instant start/stop performance, useful to a radio DJ.

Although the entry level Technics tables (say SL-D2) were solid performers, the lack of Double Isolation is the real issue that separates these from the SL XXXX series tables. The SL-1200 is a decent table but do not overlook the others (eg SL-1300, SL-1500, etc), including the auto return models and even the fully automatics, which sell for much less on the used market in comparison to the SL-1200. The chassis, Quartz Lock electronics, variable speed (pitch control) feature, DC motors, and tonearms are identical, with the caveat that you want the MK II versions which have the most advanced Quartz Lock electronics.

In the Technics implementation of Auto Return, there is no contact to the tonearm except at the album's end, so no extra noise is introduced during playback of the music portion of the grooves. The Fully Automatics have a bit more gears and levers connected to the tonearm, but in any case the mechanisms can be removed by a handy person giving you the equivalent of a fully manual table with no sonic penalty.

My own personal preference in a Direct Drive table is the Denon AC Motor tables, which were not licensed to others. AC motors are inherently smoother than DC motors with high torque and therefore speed stability, and although a good Quartz Lock system can mitigate the differences, it's also true that Denon's speed control system was not only excellent, but also directly read the actual platter speed, while the DC motor Quartz Lock is a form of feedback system.

A Japan-market DP-500 is available today new (other current Denon tables do not implement the same AC motor system). Because Japan is on a 100v 60Hz electrical grid, you need an inexpensive (Amazon sells them for under $60) transformer to correct the voltage (US/Canada is 117V). The voltage difference is not a deal-breaker but can cause reliability problems if not corrected. Were it me looking for a DD table, I would go that way, about $800 via eBay vendors in Japan. If that sounds pricey remember that the Denon tonearms are perfect matches for the lower-compliance DL-103 cartridge, a HiFi bargain, making the total system cost quite reasonable and comparable to the many excellent $1000-ish belt drive tables available today.

Issues with used QLDD tables will essentially be limited to the control electronics which can fail over time and are not readily repairable so be sure to check the strobe for a solid 33 or 45 rpm speed. They all tend to drift a bit on startup until about a 30 minute warm up; it's not an issue as long as you're aware of it. For the AC Motor Denons, beware overzealous sellers who "clean up" the underside of the platter; there is a magnetic layer on the underside of the platter near the outside edge that is critical to the speed control system. Never touch it and absolutely never "clean" it.

Somewhat back on topic, all the above tables in my experience benefit from a mat upgrade, and the Herbies' is an excellent choice for the metal platters.

[Johnny2Bad]

double post