WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...

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zybar

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As some of you know, it has been a rocky start with the RM 40's at my place.  I had never had them sounding anywhere near as good as what I heard at Frank's place (Horsehead).

Well, I am happy to report that the music I just heard coming out the 40's was raising goose bumps on the back of my neck and was simply the most natural, detailed, and well balanced system I have ever heard - PERIOD!!
 :beer:

How did I finally achieve this?  Part of it was some equipment changes, part was speaker placement/tweaking, and part was proper room treatments.

Let's start with the equipment changes.  When I purchased the 40's I was using Kora Cosmos Reference 100 watt Class A triode mono blocks and AVA T7 preamp.  While this combination was excellent on my previous speakers (Silverline Sonata II's), they just weren't getting the job done on the 40's.  If the music was dynamic and I played it at my normal listening levels, the Kora just didn'thave enough guts to handle the load.  I was dreading the thought of having to go to a solid state amp.  For almost the whole time I have been in this hobby I have used tube amps.  Solid state amps always sounded a little grainy, dry, and lacked soul.  They never seemed to be able to capture me the way a good tube amp could.   8)

That was until I received the Rowland 201 monos.  These amps are simply incredible :!:  :thumb:   When I compare their midrange to the Kora tube amps they didn't lose out.  In fact, I was able to hear deeper into the music than ever before.  Yes, it is a cliche, but each cd I was putting on sounder better than ever before.  It wasn't just hearing subtle details that I had never noticed before.  It was that the presentation had a completeness that it never had before.

On the bottom end they absolutely smoked the Koras (no suprise there).  Where I was a little shocked was how the Rowland outperformed the Pass x250.  The Pass was certainly no slouch  on the bottom but the Rowland not only went deeper, it was more dynamic and again allowed for better detail.  It was easy to hear the strings being plucked and how they resonated on a bass and percussion instruements just sounded so tight and musical that it was like they were in the room!

On the preamp front I went from the AVA T7 to the MiniMax w/NOS tubes (I need write a separate post for that comparison) to the Placette Passive preamp.  My favorite of the three was the Placette in a balanced configuration (thanks Frank for bringing yours up - mine is rca's).  All comments here are based on using the balanced Placette with Kimber Select ic's going from Electrocompaniet ECD-1 dac to Placette and from the Placette to the 201's.  The Kimber selects were also Frank's and replaced my Argent Audio Pursang and Jaden Signature ic's.  Also, since the Placette was balanced, I was able to eliminate the xlr adapters I was using on the 201's.

One other major equipment change was adding a BPT 3.5 Signature into the mix.  This unit was just received on Saturday and has not even come close to breaking in.  Regardless, it crreates a super dark and quiet background that let's you really hear what all of the other components can do - I highly recommend it as has Frank and Eric elsewhere on AudioCircle.

With these equipment changes, it was time to work on the speakers...  Out came the laser pointer and we were able to get the toe-in exactly right.  I have found that I like the 40's a little better by not crossing them in front of my, but rather have them hit my outside shoulders.  Once this was done, Frank did his magic on adjusting the pots and putty.  Since this combo much more dynamic than previous combinations, more putty was removed and the pots were brought up a little more.  These adjustments just made the 40's sing!   :dance:  

We listened to female vocals (Tori Amos - Boys for Pele, Eleanor McEvoy - Yola, and Natalie Merchant - Tigerliliy) and for some better dynamics Frank put in some music I am not familiar with (one was the Red Rose music sampler I think - Frank can comment later) and I used Harry Connick Jr's "She".

For room treatments I am using a combination of RealTrap's MiniTraps (6 of them right now), EighthNerve (Corners, Echoes, and Seems) and EchoBusters strategicaly placed around the room.  

I can't stress enough how both Frank and I really were stunned at how good this setup was.  This was exactly why I bought the 40's and dealt with all the problems I have had.  No other system has come close to giving me this much enjoyment when listening to my stereo.

The only bummer on the day was when Frank had to go.  The good news for Frank is that he left not only with his gear (sad ot see it leave) but with two pairs of Rowland 201's to try in his system vs Pass X350's.

Today reinforced how important it is to properly match components and how enjoyable it is to achieve that synergy.

One last comment...Many people (including myself) have been talking about ways to make the 40's better.  Wanting to make the speakers better doesn't mean that they aren't already very good and an excellent value.  What it means, is that there is room for improvment!  If it can be done without having to ship the speakers back to Brian, why not do it?

GW

ekovalsky

WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #1 on: 22 Feb 2004, 09:04 pm »
So glad things are finally coming together!  Wish I could have been there to hear it.

I may have to try the lambs wool in the RM/X.  I won't need to fortify the cabinet -- the RM/X is already braced to the hilt, and the whole front baffle is carved out of HDF instead of MDF  :mrgreen:  The cabinet is as dead as Howard Dean's presidential campaign  :lol:

First time I heard the new Rowland amps I was blown away, and I still am blown away every time I hear my system.   In my opinion, tubes are done.  Switch-mode technology has reached the point where it has surpassed the best conventional solid state and tube design.  

I'm very curious to see how the quad 201 mono setup compares with the X350 in Horsehead's system.  I've heard the Pass X-600 amps with VMPS at Dynamic Sound and thought they were excellent.  They were also mighty impressive driving the TAD speakers at CES this year.

zybar

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #2 on: 22 Feb 2004, 09:12 pm »
Eric,

Yes, it was extremely gratifying to hear the system sound so good.  We are going to have to get you out here (maybe come out for the Stereophile show?)

Frank won't be able to bi-amp right away as he will need a different preamp and additional ic's and cable.

To be honest, I am not sure if the bi-amp will be worth the additional cost.  If it is, that will be an incredible sounding system!

Is the BPT still getting better?

GW

John Casler

Re: WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do..
« Reply #3 on: 22 Feb 2004, 09:19 pm »
Quote from: zybar
As some of you know, it has been a rocky start with the RM 40's at my place.  I had never had them sounding anywhere near as good as what I heard at Frank's place (Horsehead).  


Good to hear GW.  

Sometimes those rocky starts are blessings in disguise.  Even though it is a little intimidating to "open" up the speakers the first time, it does open up a whole new area of "tweaking".

Many times when I do local setups for HT and such, invariably between the sources, Plasmas, projectors, processors, and all, there are "several" major problems.

While I hate to encounter them, they "DO" offer a learning experience and many times contribute to even greater performance and execution when solved.

Sounds like you're addressing all the fronts, that can make "even and stable" improvement to your whole system (organic approach) which is much better than just adding a Large Improvment, in just one area.

Again, Great to hear.

audiochef

system synergy
« Reply #4 on: 22 Feb 2004, 11:25 pm »
Zybar,
it's really good  to hear another fellow VMPSer receiving such satisfying reslults from what seems to be an awsome set up.

Do report on what you discover with the wool.
Where can I find that stuff anyway?
Have you tried acoustastuff instead?

Any way ,happy listening.

                               Stan

Daniel

WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #5 on: 23 Feb 2004, 04:57 am »
Congrats, George!  That's very gratifying.  Funny isn't it?  Upgrading your system can cause all kinds of problems until you get it into balance again.  I can just imagine your frustration when those RM40's didn't sing as you knew they could.  I read your various posts as you fiddled with the putty and pots and room treatments and I wondered, as you must have, if they would ever sound right.  You did it!  Now you've busted out to a whole new level.  I look forward to hearing your new system myself!

Horsehead

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #6 on: 23 Feb 2004, 03:10 pm »
Well, I just wrote a nice 20 minute reply only to have AC make it disappear  :banghead: I give up for now- maybe I'll try again later :evil:

zybar

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #7 on: 23 Feb 2004, 05:17 pm »
That sucks!!  :evil:

Any time with the 201's yet?

GW

ekovalsky

WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #8 on: 23 Feb 2004, 05:38 pm »
Hate it when that happens  :x

After experiencing the same problem a few times, I started copying my longer messages to the clipboard before launching, in case the AudioCircle server decides to crap out.

mcrespo71

WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #9 on: 23 Feb 2004, 05:41 pm »
I've heard the RM40's over at Josh K's place twice.  The first time they were clearly good, but the soundstage was super narrow.  However, with some hard work in placement, tuning, and tweaks, Josh completely transformed the sound of the RM40's to an AMAZING level.  I've heard the RMX's at Roops and actually liked how the RM40's sounded at Josh's more, but before I get crucified for this statement let me just say that Roop's RMX's were NOT optimized yet- I heard them with a hodgepodge of gear we brought over for an event.  Nonetheless, they sounded excellent, but I bet I was only hearing MAYBE 30-40% of what they can do.  

Anyway, it's clear to me that with some work these big VMPS'S can sound just fabulous.  Glad your work is starting to pay off, George.

Michael

ctviggen

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #10 on: 23 Feb 2004, 09:37 pm »
Zybar,

Do you have the TRT caps and the FST?  I'm thinking of ordering kits for my RM40s (save money, as I'm buying a house, and I'd like to put everything together).  I was thinking of holding off on the TRT caps for a while, and perhaps doing them later.  I'd also like to know if you have any web sites about the room treatments you've used.  Thanks!

zybar

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #11 on: 24 Feb 2004, 02:49 am »
Yes, I have the FST and TRT caps.   :D

The room treatments that made a very big impact on the bass are made by RealTraps.

Give Ethan a call.

Besides being knowledgable, he is a good guy.

BTW, ever coming over for a listen?

GW

ctviggen

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #12 on: 24 Feb 2004, 01:20 pm »
Thanks!  I'm definitely coming over for a listen, but it's trying to find the time that's hard. This weekend, I'm going to Boston to see Big Head Todd and the Monsters.  I won't be home until Saturday, then Sunday my day day will be filled with tons of stuff (laundry, cooking, buying food, etc.).  I'm also in the process of buying a house, so I've been going every weekend looking at houses.  I've put an offer on one house, so this and next weekend I'm doing the inspections (to the tune of $800 so far).  I also have my yearly physical and my biannual teeth cleaning, all this week!  Egad!  So, perhaps two weekends from now?  (But I also have to work with my friend to do work on his house -- it's crazy!)  I'll call on this Sunday.

zybar

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #13 on: 24 Feb 2004, 01:29 pm »
Bob,

Where in Boston is Big Heat Todd playing?

They are a great band and put on a very good show - you are in for a special treat.

I understand about being busy - same here.

The offer doesn't have an expiration date since I have no plans on selling the 40's.   8)

GW

ctviggen

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WOW! Finally starting to hear what the RM 40's can do...
« Reply #14 on: 24 Feb 2004, 08:31 pm »
They are playing at the Avalon theater.  You can see their entire schedule at http://www.bigheadtodd.com/tour/index.shtml.  This will be the second time I've seen them.  The last time, they opened for Hootie and the Blowfish, which was a very weird combination.  You have BHTM, with great musicians and adult lyrics (though a bit depressing), and then Hootie comes out with musicians that, while good, are no where near the level of BHTM and with upbeat but kinda shallow lyrics.  

About coming to listen, my weekends should be much more free in a week or two -- I'll have everything done to buy the house and will simply be sitting around for the deal to go down.  I'd like to bring my friend, who got me into this hobby and keeps saying that I shouldn't buy speakers over the Internet (although I plan on driving to a "local" dealer if I can).