Interesting exchange

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Goosepond

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #40 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:23 pm »
All I know is when I listen to my music I smile and when I look at Hedy, I really smile!  :thumb:

Gene

Pundamilia

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #41 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:29 pm »
While I don't agree with Elizabeth's BELIEFS, she does have a point. This has all become a "religious" argument with neither side likely to convince the other. Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference, they remain unconvinced. We should be more laissez-faire about the whole thing. If people want to spend their money on cables and such, so be it. Let them. It is their money and we should allow others to do whatever increases their personal enjoyment, without casting aspersions on their intelligence, hearing, etc.

Unfortunately, the industry has reached a situation where most of the components are so expensive that to attempt a tweak (even in some cases a $1000 tweak) is still less expensive than replacing a major component. And some of us in our never-ending quest to replicate sound perfectly will always be seduced by something that is purported to improve the sound at a "more moderate" (whatever that means) cost.

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #42 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:33 pm »
All I know is when I listen to my music I smile and when I look at Hedy, I really smile!  :thumb:
I more than smiled, I laughed seeing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo
Demonstrations can be more than they appear, apparently.  :wink:

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #43 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:39 pm »
Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference
That's another red herring. No intelligent person tries to prove a negative (and thus don't). The entire burden of proof lies with the peddlers/believers to explain a 2-2.5db measured increase in intensity.
If one bothered to read Waldreps article, the audibility part between the cable swaps was well established. It's the non-imaginary reason behind it that was in question.

PierreB

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #44 on: 20 Jul 2018, 03:02 pm »
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.

 :thumb:

decal

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #45 on: 20 Jul 2018, 05:14 pm »
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.


 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Goosepond

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #46 on: 20 Jul 2018, 06:55 pm »
Obviously this is not a hobby, it is an obsession. Why else would anyone argue about which POWER CORD (yes a PC) SOUNDS better!!! :scratch:

Gene

martydmnt

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #47 on: 20 Jul 2018, 07:25 pm »
Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference, they remain unconvinced. We should be more laissez-faire about the whole thing. If people want to spend their money on cables and such, so be it. Let them. It is their money and we should allow others to do whatever increases their personal enjoyment, without casting aspersions on their intelligence, hearing, etc.

I would propose a more accurate term would be "experientialist," that is, experience is the only source of knowledge. An experimentalist would seek to objectively measure and collect reproducible, verifiable data. My experiment demonstrates nothing if the same data cannot be duplicated by other people.

And now I see I misread and indeed you wrote experientialist .. sorry! I just repeated what you said.

Hobbies should be fun, and challenging people's intelligence or name calling is silly and can't be justified. If you personally experience happiness from changing out power cords, don't let some invalidate your enjoyment with comments on measurements. However, enjoyment and reproducible experimental data are two very different things!

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #48 on: 20 Jul 2018, 09:23 pm »
Quote
By Mark Waldrep
A couple of weeks ago I wrote an article about an event that reported on some of the nonsense demos that happen at trade shows (you can visit the article by clicking here). I deliberately avoided naming the salesperson who demonstrated the “benefits” of expensive — very expensive — power cords and the name of his company out of respect for the hosts. His demo produced audible/measurable increases in the amplitude of identical music selections. A result that is impossible according to the laws of physics. Electrical engineers and those with even a casual knowledge of how electrical circuits and power supplies work know that a heavy twisted cable worth thousands of dollars cannot — and should not — increase the plus and minus voltages needed by the various circuits in the equipment in question.
Sadly the above requires basic reading and science comprehension, lest it be misinterpreted.
Nothing to do with hobbies, preferences, straw or herrings.

Elizabeth

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #49 on: 21 Jul 2018, 12:06 am »
Completely off track, Just wanted to say I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry and that connection of anger/Bryston remains.
This is why Women usually leave sites, the fights just tarnish the whole experience.
Some Men have this happen also. (naturally some Guys love the arguing. Go figure)
So, as a suggestion, skip the stories that lead to this sort of crap.
In addition, I pretty much no longer say anything about what I am doing with my system. Why? half the folks just want to argue about shit. Who needs it?

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #50 on: 21 Jul 2018, 01:35 am »
I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry
No it doesn't. It reflects more on those who can't ignore topics they don't like, insert themselves, can't defend their baseless specious positions, make projections of themselves onto others, then make demands about shutting down said topic. As if it can't just be ignored.
Kudos to James for posting about folks standing up to highly questionable, possibly fraudulent actions by individuals as anyone can read, quoted verbatim above. Knowledge is power.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #51 on: 21 Jul 2018, 01:43 am »
Completely off track, Just wanted to say I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry and that connection of anger/Bryston remains.
This is why Women usually leave sites, the fights just tarnish the whole experience.
Some Men have this happen also. (naturally some Guys love the arguing. Go figure)
So, as a suggestion, skip the stories that lead to this sort of crap.
In addition, I pretty much no longer say anything about what I am doing with my system. Why? half the folks just want to argue about shit. Who needs it?

You need to quit being accusatory and get off your high-horse.

skunark

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #52 on: 21 Jul 2018, 01:57 am »
Quote
While the resistance of the cables shows which cable will lose the least power, the power lost in watts is determined by the voltage drop. For 100-foot runs, the resistances of AWG 10, 12 and 14 gauge cables are 0.1, 0.16 and 0.25 ohms. A household circuit is rated 15 amps. A 15-amp current through 100 feet of these cables would result in voltage drops of 1.5, 2.4 and 3.75 volts respectively.

If the voltage drop varied between cables because of length and gauge how much would that impact the measurements of an amp?   Amp, preamp and source could all be impacted unless there is circuitry guaranteeing the input voltage.    None of this means the sound quality changed but loudness might.   Something Bryston could measure with brandless power cables of varous lengths and gauges.   

A simple spice circuit of a typical power supply will vary the DC rails by percentages as the input amplitude changes.   

(If it matters, im in the camp that the last six feet of power cables dont matter for sound quality)

ohenry

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #53 on: 21 Jul 2018, 04:26 am »
My take away from this mess is that it's bad form to sneak a microphone into an audio demonstration.  I find it bothersome that Mark Waldrep failed to recognize that important issue probably because he couldn't defend his undercover activity. 

That's why he got the boot from the club; not his beliefs.  :?

mresseguie

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #54 on: 21 Jul 2018, 04:43 am »
James,

Thank you for posting the link.

I have more than once been reproached for speaking my mind about this or that audio product. Few reviews mention negatives or drawbacks. I think it's very important to be candid.

Regards,

Michael

charmerci

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #55 on: 21 Jul 2018, 05:29 am »
Daneel, CanadianM, etc.
When I worked in a hotel in Flagstaff, I was walking in a tile passageway with the head of housekeeping. She said that there was something that smelled bad. My sense of smell is pretty good. There is nothing wrong with it. I took a deep inhale through my nose. Nothing. It smelled fine. She insisted looked around and then looked way behind a vending machine in the corner and was a wrapper that had some old rotting food in it.
Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #56 on: 21 Jul 2018, 10:16 am »
My take away from this mess is that it's bad form to sneak a microphone into an audio demonstration.
It's bad form for shady demo folks and their enablers to not know that everyone in the room with smart phones have microphones, "snuck in".
Worse, that one or two might have the critical thinking skills to use them and measure magical mystical 2-2.5db increases in intensity with the same track.
Btw, the name of the event was AudioCon. No joke.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #57 on: 21 Jul 2018, 11:32 am »
Daneel, CanadianM, etc.

Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.

I agree with this. But this is a different matter from what E.'s posts reveal about her world concept. Her notion that anyone who doubts her generic claims is an a--h--- etc. It's not doubt per se. It's making it seem as if pc's in general (as a concept/principle) will improve SQ in an already hi-end system. I call that misleading, at best. I have no problem with her posting observations. Just don't couch them as proof that the "EE's and their type" are incompetent or deluded.

cheers

AJinFLA

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #58 on: 21 Jul 2018, 12:51 pm »
When I worked in a hotel in Flagstaff, I was walking in a tile passageway with the head of housekeeping. She said that there was something that smelled bad. My sense of smell is pretty good. There is nothing wrong with it. I took a deep inhale through my nose. Nothing. It smelled fine. She insisted looked around and then looked way behind a vending machine in the corner and was a wrapper that had some old rotting food in it.
Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.
Thank you very much. Even though you are unaware, you just posted full support of "EE types" vs belief. What you posted was a demonstration of actual sensory ability, using semi-controlled single blind methodology. "Blind" means "not knowing", not "blindfolded". Neither of you knew or could obviously see priori exactly what the source was. The non-audiophile used her senses to home in using that sense, smell, to locate the source.
That is exactly what "EE types" advocate based on 200+ years of scientific knowledge.
The audiophile method would have been to make sure they were told and knew about priori/saw the food at all times, during their 3 month "long term smelling" "test".  :lol:
Yes, a perfect example of "trust your nose", "nose only", "just smelling" test. Thanks, even if inadvertent. :wink:

Btw, this thread is actually about a demo where the level measurably increased 2-2.5db. There is no dispute differences were heard with the cable swap. FYI.

cheers,

AJ

TJ-Sully

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Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #59 on: 21 Jul 2018, 09:38 pm »
just crank up the tunes baby! got Lucinda Williams' "Can't Let Go" playing really loud. through my all Bryston system. using my personal choice of interconnect cables, power cords, fancy speaker cable - and the music sounds amazing!! bring it on Bryston.  love it.  so...quit all 'yer bitchin and enjoy the music folks! life is too short for squabbling on the internet about smack.  :thumb: crank up Lucinda and let 'er rip!

Tj