AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GIK Acoustics => Topic started by: DaveWin88 on 17 Oct 2022, 10:24 pm
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Hello
I have my couch up against the back wall. I know it's far from ideal, but do I have any options. I know it would be just a band aid, but I'm OK with that for now. The picture I've added is pretty much how my system is set up (I currently have a pair of open baffle) so that alone was pretty massive. Right now I have a couple of ceiling tiles behind the couch :) believe it or not it made a hell of a difference. It seemed to push the upper mids / highs back to the speaker plane. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245670)
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From your image, you have room to move your couch forward a bit which will improve things a bit more. Give it a try and see what you think. You can probably move your speakers forward a bit and put them a bit closer together, to keep the distance between the speakers same or less than the distance you are from the speakers. The sound stage may not be as wide, but it will be deeper.
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toocool4, that's a great idea. If I lean in, it does improve. I definitely can and will do that. Here are a couple newer photo's just to show what I have to work with. Thank you toocool4
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245671)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245672)
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Have you tried putting your seating position in the corner of the room, and use the opposite corner for components and speakers each side of that? You could probably get away with that with the OB speakers you have now.
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Have you tried putting your seating position in the corner of the room, and use the opposite corner for components and speakers each side of that? You could probably get away with that with the OB speakers you have now.
I have thought of trying that. Here is a photo of what on the other side of the room. I only have the couch :) I thought about going the other way (the room is 15x12) might go that route down the road. Thank you for the advice.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245673)
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Would certainly open things up with the doorway behind you
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Would certainly open things up with the doorway behind you
I tried it with the couch facing this way, but it just didn't work. Open baffle you really do need the front wall to be even (whats behind the speakers)
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Your couch is right against the wall. If you're willing to give up a few inches (4 to be precise) then there are acoustic panels that you could put there. For experimental purposes, you can get some fiberglass or cotton insulation and build the panel yourself. Something like 2 inches of insulation in a frame of 2x4 where there's a hollow in the panel that is against the wall. I forget the name of the manufacturer that makes nice looking panels like this.
Alternatively, as diffusion on the back is more a la mode these days, an artsy acoustic diffuser might work there as well.
You'd want one that's mathematically defined (qrd?). Try searching for "Wall Art Panel Acoustic Diffuser" to see if anything out there is palatable to you.
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I tried it with the couch facing this way, but it just didn't work. Open baffle you really do need the front wall to be even (whats behind the speakers)
That is a tough room. One thing is the right speaker is also closer to the wall versus the left. You can't change the room, maybe consider changing the couch out for a chair? You could remove that table right of the couch and if you need to keep the couch in that room, move the couch's arm all the way toward that hall way. Get a chair (use that office chair for now) put it where the TV is and the speakers on the wall right across. In that position you can pull the speakers out into the room little more as well. Your distances to the side wall would be more equal in that arrangement, not have the huge window behind your speakers. Just a thought, not sure if possible. Just need to keep experimenting with it. Best of luck!
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Shared living spaces are always tough, both in terms of getting the setup dialed in and also getting enough treatments into the room. For setup I'd experiment -- apart from the challenges of open baffle speakers (especially with getting an accurate bass response), it's good to have the reflection points on the side walls & ceiling and hte front corners behind the speakers available for treatments. Rear wall behind you also help as you've observed (if it's noticeably better with those office ceiling tiles it will be really good with actual treatments).
Let us know how we can help (https://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/)if you are thinking of using GIK treatments, we can do a deeper dive.
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Your couch is right against the wall. If you're willing to give up a few inches (4 to be precise) then there are acoustic panels that you could put there. For experimental purposes, you can get some fiberglass or cotton insulation and build the panel yourself. Something like 2 inches of insulation in a frame of 2x4 where there's a hollow in the panel that is against the wall. I forget the name of the manufacturer that makes nice looking panels like this.
Alternatively, as diffusion on the back is more a la mode these days, an artsy acoustic diffuser might work there as well.
You'd want one that's mathematically defined (qrd?). Try searching for "Wall Art Panel Acoustic Diffuser" to see if anything out there is palatable to you.
artur9. Putting something 4" thick would be no problem at all. I might have to look at the art panels. Pretty pricey, but they would serve a dual purpose for sure. Thank you for the advice.
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That is a tough room. One thing is the right speaker is also closer to the wall versus the left. You can't change the room, maybe consider changing the couch out for a chair? You could remove that table right of the couch and if you need to keep the couch in that room, move the couch's arm all the way toward that hall way. Get a chair (use that office chair for now) put it where the TV is and the speakers on the wall right across. In that position you can pull the speakers out into the room little more as well. Your distances to the side wall would be more equal in that arrangement, not have the huge window behind your speakers. Just a thought, not sure if possible. Just need to keep experimenting with it. Best of luck!
That's really what I should try. Good eye :) Yeah that would absolutely make sense. Both subs could be in the corners. Guys I'm telling you, as uneven the room is? open baffle works amazing. Having the drivers out of phase works wonders in this situation. I'm pretty shocked at how good it already sounds :) Here is a photo (backs up what VinceT recommends) btw the house is only 900 sq feet, so it's pretty small (I'm blessed to have it though) the TV weights 167lbs :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245695)
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Shared living spaces are always tough, both in terms of getting the setup dialed in and also getting enough treatments into the room. For setup I'd experiment -- apart from the challenges of open baffle speakers (especially with getting an accurate bass response), it's good to have the reflection points on the side walls & ceiling and hte front corners behind the speakers available for treatments. Rear wall behind you also help as you've observed (if it's noticeably better with those office ceiling tiles it will be really good with actual treatments).
Let us know how we can help (https://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/)if you are thinking of using GIK treatments, we can do a deeper dive.
I'm still thinking GIK for my needs right now, just have to weight my options. So I'll probably be reaching out to you guys. Thank you
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Looking at the latest picture you posted, personally I would move the system round and have the speakers backing on to the wall on the right of where the couch is at the moment and having your back where the TV is. You will have a more even symmetry things happening on the left and right of the speakers, yes you will have windows nearer the left speaker but still more even than the big space next to the left speaker you have now.
I will never understand why anyone would have a subwoofer near any wall? Give what I say a try, it will cost you nothing more than your time and if you don’t like it put it back. To make any system sound good, symmetry is key. At the moment you don’t have that. At the moment having a great big space next to your left speakers and sub really plays havoc with the reflection time signature of your system. You really need what is going on the left and right hand side of the speakers to be as close as possible.
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Looking at the latest picture you posted, personally I would move the system round and have the speakers backing on to the wall on the right of where the couch is at the moment and having your back where the TV is. You will have a more even symmetry things happening on the left and right of the speakers, yes you will have windows nearer the left speaker but still more even than the big space next to the left speaker you have now.
I will never understand why anyone would have a subwoofer near any wall? Give what I say a try, it will cost you nothing more than your time and if you don’t like it put it back. To make any system sound good, symmetry is key. At the moment you don’t have that. At the moment having a great big space next to your left speakers and sub really plays havoc with the reflection time signature of your system. You really need what is going on the left and right hand side of the speakers to be as close as possible.
toocoo4, the layout you suggest is on par with what VinceT is saying. Guys OB speakers if you really never heard one, they have very little sound / bass coming from the side, so they don't have the cancellation like the Tektons had. I hear you guys though, and you are right. I actually put the sub on the couch and got on the floor to come up with this spot. I do agree that the sub in the open will not be the same as the other. I'm giving the layout a try this weekend. Thank you for the advice guys. I'll take all the help I can get.
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i also would like to see the speakers against the wall where you have the wall clock and chair in front of the tv. I'd have the speakers 4' from side and 5' from back wall. Basically, give up half your living room to your speakers. I never had OB speakers before, but I'd imagine them being farther from wall would cancel out some of the unevenness.
after looking at pic again, with description above, you should have less unevenness since you'd have solid walls on both sides (well window on left side).
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i also would like to see the speakers against the wall where you have the wall clock and chair in front of the tv. I'd have the speakers 4' from side and 5' from back wall. Basically, give up half your living room to your speakers. I never had OB speakers before, but I'd imagine them being farther from wall would cancel out some of the unevenness.
after looking at pic again, with description above, you should have less unevenness since you'd have solid walls on both sides (well window on left side).
I agree viggen. Setting it up this weekend. Good thing I don't have to worry about waf :)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245918)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245919)
OK guys, I finally got around to setting up the room the other way. After a bit of settling time (it didn't sound very good for the first hour or so) it's a much better layout for sure. The bass is significantly significantly better. I've since moved the subs from out of the corner by a foot or so than in these photos. The sound stage got taller. I feel the mid bass driver is much better off as the whole presentation seems more balanced. The detail just seems to be more dimensional. Super happy and I feel like I can move forward with some room treatment now. Thank you guys for all the great tips. btw the speakers are 37 inches from the front wall. I also have the speakers on slate blocks so I can listen to the tweeter off axis a bit.
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Nice one, experimenting is the key. Enjoy :thumb:
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Looks great Dave
I have a couch in my room too, I have the couch legs on sliders and move it back when I do any critical listening. You could pull that couch back toward your hallway when things get serious. I would try maybe putting those subs each side of the amp between the speakers as well. You could also raise them up and decouple off the floor on some milk crates and keep playing around with placement. I am sure they will continue to sound better as you make your tweaks.
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Nice one, experimenting is the key. Enjoy :thumb:
I do agree 100% TY
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Looks great Dave
I have a couch in my room too, I have the couch legs on sliders and move it back when I do any critical listening. You could pull that couch back toward your hallway when things get serious. I would try maybe putting those subs each side of the amp between the speakers as well. You could also raise them up and decouple off the floor on some milk crates and keep playing around with placement. I am sure they will continue to sound better as you make your tweaks.
I just moved the subs parallel to the speakers, and the bass went south :) You got me thinking that I do have the subs playing up around 50hz ish, so having them arrive at my ears the same time is probably a must. Just going to have to tweak the subs for the best sound. Thank you guys
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Believe it or not, but often subs sound better if they fire in different directions. It helps get rid of standing waves and room modes. Try pointing one sideways and see what happens. Good luck with your tweaking!
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jtcf they're both down firing.
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I also have down firing subs. I got mine off the floor witj some homemade risers. Then started moving them about room, half way into the room or actually more near field with good results, away from the walls. In Dave's case maybe just playing with the settings more, where they were against the wall must have had some peaks and valleys in the response.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245930)
OK guys. I'm going to try a session with the subs like this. You guys made a good point about the placement near the walls. I'm more concerned about preserving the bass quality out of the Spatials, and time arrival. I'll let you guys know what it sounds like :)
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Sorry, I missed that they were down firing! If your cables are long enough don't hesitate to try them in other places. You'll hear it immediately when you find the right spots. Bass waves actually pass you by and bounce back again before you hear them. Crazy but true. Good luck and btw your set up looks great:-)
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This
https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html
could be helpful in setup if you are serious since the method takes considerable effort, personally I wouldn't do it.
The Harman/Toole multiple sub location recommendations point to a middle of the room against the wall opposing configuration.
I read that the rule of thirds for room dimensions is agreeable to OB type speakers so that may be worth a try. It's easy to know when you get there, it's all about a disconnect with critical listening. Every instrument is always in the correct place and has the right presence, the sound is effortless and makes no demands on your attention. This happens no matter the associated components or recording resolution.
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This
https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html
could be helpful in setup if you are serious since the method takes considerable effort, personally I wouldn't do it.
The Harman/Toole multiple sub location recommendations point to a middle of the room against the wall opposing configuration.
I read that the rule of thirds for room dimensions is agreeable to OB type speakers so that may be worth a try. It's easy to know when you get there, it's all about a disconnect with critical listening. Every instrument is always in the correct place and has the right presence, the sound is effortless and makes no demands on your attention. This happens no matter the associated components or recording resolution.
I'm going to give this a good read over.
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Well I have a host of other room related problems now that I'm in this configuration. The front wall is giving me fits. Just covering up the window with a towel made a massive difference. Ordered a couple GIK 244's 24x48 bass traps. I'm glad they have a pretty big range of absorption. I don't believe bass is the only problem. I've since moved the subs back to the outside of the speakers.
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Personally I would have gone with GIK corner bass traps and ATS diffusers on the wall behind the speakers. I have found a combination of bass traps and diffusers work best in my room after years of experimentation. Once you get some acoustical treatments in place, then you can experiment with the subs placement. Best of luck.
Don P
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Don I'm just grabbing at straws right now :) Just the towel over the window was a very shocking improvement. Probably makeshift something towelish that I can hang and remove easy. I think the 244's will be an OK start. Stupid open baffle speakers haha. I bought this the other day. Maybe I'll try and play with this, even though I'll be in the dark mostly on how to use it effectively. Oh for shits and giggles, I cut down the Rel cables from 30 feet to 10.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246061)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246062)
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Isn't setup first without the subs less complicated? Considering the wildly diverse impressions of your dfferent setups in that room are you sure that both speakers are a reasonable match to each other to maintain coherence. I assume everything is in phase.
I hope it isn't just a matter of turning your 'cable risers' upside down to eliminate that bowl resonance.
Roxul Safe n Sound 2x4x4” draped in 2 pillow cases. Cheap and effective above 200 hz. In the meantime, til the real stuff shows up.
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Isn't setup first without the subs less complicated? Dude that makes to much sense. Yeah I need to take a step back and take one thing at a time. I just bought a towel that will cover 95% of the window. Those Silversmith cables are a pia to keep off the floor :). Thank you for the tip on the Roxul Safe n Sound 2x4x4.
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OK guys. Taking what you've said, I took a step back, and by dumb luck I figured it out for the most part. When I reconfigured the room, in doing so I boxed it in and added a few elements that basically over damped the room. I've since removed the papasan chair. I had some stupid ceiling tiles from the basement. I removed a couple behind me, and it totally opened up the entire presentation. The sense of ambience returned. These speakers are very very forgiving on the room so doing what I thought was best just made it worse. But I was just doing some listening, and I'm back in business pretty much. So yeah less is more. I'm telling you, open baffle speakers in an over damped room, sounds like a Victrola :) Plus the right speaker, the tweeter is shooting much further away (behind me) than the left one, so I turned down the gain on the left speaker at the amp, and it's pretty balanced soundstage now.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246085)
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I forgot to ask. Are telling us what is happening while listening to vinyl only?
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I forgot to ask. Are telling us what is happening while listening to vinyl only?
CD also.
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OK guys update to my setup. First I really took the time to measure and make it as even as I can. I put the speakers at the minimum distance 36" from the front wall to make better use of the space. I was watching a video of Jim Smith on (The Absolute Sound) YT channel, and have to agree with Jim's recommendation. Sitting too close you do get better? instrument separation, but in reality you would have to be very close almost on stage to get that level and it sounds unnatural. Sitting back does put everything in context. I received my Gik 244 bass traps. It took a couple weeks, so keep that in mind if you order any. They are free standing which is really nice. Been playing with ceiling tiles to no real avail :) So as I was putting these in place I asked myself literally in my mind, would these be the ticket. Well guys I was pretty shocked at the improvement. Listening to some classical music on vinyl, I was surprised at how much clearer and the muddiness was gone. The upper frequency's seem to really benefit. I put Alfred Brendal Schubert piano music which I'm very familiar with and was really blown away. I have NEVER NEVER heard it sound this good. Nuance to the notes and the piano, you could hear the note getting struck. Every note was distinct and the air in between is killer I was so happy to say the least. All vinyl sounded clearer, better high's, great bass. I feel like the upper bass driver really shines. I sometime wonder if it was even contributing at all in the past. A good portion of the tweeter output that seem to bug me has diminished. I'm guessing that has to do the the mid bass driver contributing better in that area. All in all guys, the GIK traps worked wonders for me. Now I'm starting to hear what my system can really do. I'm very impressed to say the least. Thank you to all that reached out to help. btw the bass traps are even with the speakers, it just doesn't look like it from the angle of the photo's. Oh another thing. Vinyl is the shit :) These albums are 45-60 years old (phillips mostly) wholly mackerel they sound amazing.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246659)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246660)
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That's great! Getting control of the bass waves improves the entire frequency spectrum. Enjoy!
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That's great! Getting control of the bass waves improves the entire frequency spectrum. Enjoy!
Absolutely. The more I learn is that even a slight increase in one area of a frequency, bass, treble, mids can really change the balance of the whole presentation. You hear so much more into the recording than ever when things are evened out. Thank you man
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Dave, re-splice one of your REL cables and try placing it to the right of your couch. Straddle the 244's across the corners and place the other REL in the left corner right against the 244.
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Dave, re-splice one of your REL cables and try placing it to the right of your couch. Straddle the 244's across the corners and place the other REL in the left corner right against the 244.
Hey max190, I'll keep that in mind. I bet you would be right about better? bass output with that configuration.
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Dave, re-splice one of your REL cables and try placing it to the right of your couch. Straddle the 244's across the corners and place the other REL in the left corner right against the 244.
Max I going to give this a try. Pretty unsatisfied at the bass level currently the way I have it setup.
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ttt