[turkey]

I never apologize for loving euphonic.  To each his own,  I always say.

That's what the guy in the back of the bus with the boombox says too.

[skrivis]

I was certainly aware that green electrons follow green wires, and the same for red electrons (Are they really Red Lectroids?).

I'm just worried that Wayner might not have any electrons of color in his house.

What is that suppose to mean?

Just my attempt at making a joke about your preamp.

 

[rajacat]

I never apologize for loving euphonic.  To each his own,  I always say.

That's what the guy in the back of the bus with the boombox says too.

BTW all boomboxes are squalid state.

[TjMV3]

That's what the guy in the back of the bus with the boombox says too.

Bite me

[charmerci]

That's what the guy in the back of the bus with the boombox says too.

Bite me

To those who usually aren't up here,

continuing this is going to get this whole thread deleted....

Stick to the subject. Please no more - even if you are joking.

[avahifi]

Please stop it right now.   

Frank

P.S.  A half foot of snow here in the last hour, all the little front wheel drive cars with ha ha "all season" tires are hopelessly stuck right in the middle of the roads, tires spinning uselessly, and I got thru it all, like bumper cars at the state fair and me not wanting to get bumped.

Not in the mood for much humor.

[Wayner]

Frank,

I just finished snow blowing myself. I'd say about 8" out here and the wind is starting to pick up. Oh boy, this is fun.

Wayner 

[Wayner]

To answer a few questions:

I was certainly aware that green electrons follow green wires, and the same for red electrons (Are they really Red Lectroids?).

I'm just worried that Wayner might not have any electrons of color in his house.

What is that suppose to mean?

Just my attempt at making a joke about your preamp.

 

OK, cool.

The very tube-like sound of the chip reveals a nice solid bass line, cymbal crashes that sound like real and a very reasonable soundstage. This is all I will say for tonight. I need to get adjusted to the change and listen to some more different LPs.

What do you mean by "very tube-like?" Lots of harmonic distortion and coloration?

No, I think most hi-fi manufactureres are on the quest for tube-like mellowness (without the usual solid state edginess) with the reliability of solid-state design. There are quite a few folks that will argue against your point about tubes having lots of harmonic distorion and coloration. I think if tube or hybrid design is done correctly, those qualities are not present. I'm sure lots of T8 owners or Ultra owners or U70 owners will disagree with your comment.

Not a dumb question, I was just teasing the writer, a very good long term client, a bit.

i hope nobody notices that I never actually answered the question. 

Not supposed to ask me questions like that.

Regards,

Frank

I noticed.

I was certainly aware that green electrons follow green wires, and the same for red electrons (Are they really Red Lectroids?).

I'm just worried that Wayner might not have any electrons of color in his house.

What is that suppose to mean?

So you do have colored electrons?

Curiouser and curiouser.

I guess I must. different sounds come out of the left and right channel.  aa

And finally, I am just listening to the preamp with the new chips in the phono board only. That way I can get used to the texture of the sound. Tomorrow, I will put the rest of the chips in the line board and give a listen then.

Wayner

[Wayner]

For some reason, I had to move my speakers 2" farther apart.

Now I have heard the finest vinyl ever in my life. OH-MY-GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just don't know what to say right now. It's incredible! I am tired and will quite for the evening, but Rodger Water's album "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking was a sonic masterpiece. It startled my lovely wife. It startled me. I also teared up, not 'cause of the music, but because of the impact. Music can be very emotional. That has now confirmed that the first part of the chip upgrade has crossed the mile stone with flying colors. I'm kind of afraid to put the new chips in the line stage, not knowing what is to come. But it is my job to do it so tomorrow, the new chips go in to the line board.

I know Oneinthepipe has sent his stuff in for upgrades (again making UPS richer and richer), but well worth it IMHO.

Wayner

[turkey]

There are quite a few folks that will argue against your point about tubes having lots of harmonic distorion and coloration.

I lean towards this opinion from Peter Aczel:

"The point is this: the vacuum tube is an outmoded device, at least for audio applications. Any audio circuit that can be
done with tubes can be done better, or at the very least just as well, with transistors. There is simply no credible technical
reason to go the tube route. I'm willing to concede that a faultlessly engineered tube preamplifier is essentially as good and
useful as a similarly well-engineered solid-state preamplifier, but the tube preamp will lose performance as the tubes age,
and even when new its distortion plus noise will never be as low as 0.002%.

Why do it, then? The fact is that vacuum-tube audio circuit design has little or no support in the professional engineering
community; all, or nearly all, the tube amplifier companies are owned and run by tweaky audiophiles without engi-
neering degrees, and the rave reviews come from their groupies at the tweaky magazines. What drives the tube amplifier
market is a belief system, not a superior technology."

[oneinthepipe]

"What drives the tube amplifier market is a belief system, not a superior technology."

That might or might not be perfectly true.  I assume that there are also financial reasons that tube amplifiers are not mass-produced, and the author might consider a less costly product to also be a technologically superior product.  Notwithstanding, I believe in the Constitution of the United States of America.  The Constitution is a system of beliefs, and a good foundation for our society, IMO. 

There is more than just measurable distortion that factors in to a buyer's decision to purchase a tube unit.  As an analogy, I have a couple of automatic movement watches.  They aren't the most accurate timepieces in the world, and a $4.99 quartz watch from Walgreen's, at 1/500th the price, is probably more accurate.  Obviously, accuracy wasn't the overriding criteria in my watch selection.  I appreciate the old-fashioned mechanism of the automatic movement and the beautiful craftsmanship of a fine Swiss watch.  In my mind, a $2000.00 Swiss-made automatic watch is superior to a $4.99 quartz Walgreen's watch, even though the $4.99 watch may be more accurate, and even if the $4.99 watch had the same shock and water resistance of the $2000.00 watch.  With audio gear, I would hope that a $2000.00 tube amplifier would sound better than a $4.99 solid state amplifier, even if a $4.99 solid state amplifier existed.  Whether or not a $2000.00 tube amplifier sounds better than a $2000.00 solid state amplifier depends on the amplifier, I assume.  For myself, regarding audio gear, I believe that I want the best "sounding" and most accurate components available.  While I have a Super 70i, a tube amplifier, I don't listen to it much because the Super 70i's performance, by my ear, can't keep up with my Insight 440, a solid state amplifier.  The Super 70i sits on an audio stand, cage removed, "on display" with an overhead halogen lamp providing subtle illumination.  It is a beautiful amp, and I get a lot of pleasure owning it.

I have to assume that there aren't any electrical engineers that own automatic movement watches.

[avahifi]

The vacuum tube is not necessarily an outmoded device in all respects.

There is at least one place where a vacuum tube has a very important advantage, that is overload immunity in summing the feedback node in an amplifying circuit.  The best solid state designs typically have at most 2 volts of error correction headroom at the point where the input signal is summed with the feedback signal.  All else being nearly equal, a vacuum tube can have 200 volts of headroom at this point.  We suspect that this is a major contributor to the subjective sense of "solid state" sound and other fatigue factors with much solid state equipment.  We cannot measure what the worst case feedback overload requirements are for certain, but we certainly feel more comfortable with two magnitudes of extra capability here.  Of course this does not completely make up for the poor current drive and high output impedance characteristics of vacuum tubes, but careful design can overcome lots of these issues, such as with our patented transimpedance designs used in our hybrid products.  Also where voltage gain is not required, different solutions are possible.  All audio design is a compromise.

So please don't believe all the bad press about tubes without thinking it all through very carefully.  The music is the goal.  We will try to use the best devices we can for each circuit application we design to bring you the music the most cost effect way that we can.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine


P.S.  Another bad assumption - -  I own a Rolex.  Its my one and only piece of jewelery.  Sure I know a Timex is more accurate.  However audio equipment is not jewelery and should not be confused as such, although many people do.

[oneinthepipe]

P.S.  Another bad assumption - -  I own a Rolex.  Its my one and only piece of jewelery.  Sure I know a Timex is more accurate.  However audio equipment is not jewelery and should not be confused as such, although many people do.

A Rolex.  Nice watch, Frank.  I wouldn't have thought of you as a Rolex owner until I remembered that Rolex builds their own movements.    Could be another bad assumption, however.

As much as I like the minimalist appearance of the AVA gear, I hardly think of it as "audio jewelery."  However, I understand why some people like to collect vintage and antique audio gear.  There is a fellow in Massachusetts that collects antique radios.  I think that he actually gets them to work, although none of them are used in his audio system.

I don't use the Super 70i much, and I keep thinking that I should sell it, but there is something nice about it sitting there.  Something from the old days, perhaps.  (Or maybe I am a hoarder!)   

[cdorval1]

What this brings to mind is a long study done in Europe a while ago pulling people off the street and having them listen to variety of music through solid state and tube equipment.  Sorry I don't remember many specifics.  It was a double-blind study.

The statements that came out of that study stick with me.  When asked which equipment was the most "accurate," participants said solid state.  When asked which equipment was the most "enjoyable" to listen to, they said tubes.

Craig

[rajacat]

What about the "fatigue factor" that Frank talks about ?

"The best solid state designs typically have at most 2 volts of error correction headroom at the point where the input signal is summed with the feedback signal.  All else being nearly equal, a vacuum tube can have 200 volts of headroom at this point.  We suspect that this is a major contributor to the subjective sense of "solid state" sound and other fatigue factors with much solid state equipment."

Is this factor present when listening to live acoustic music? I doubt it. Therefore it follows that SS gear could be adding some distortion to the signal and perhaps this why, all other things equal, that most people prefer tubes in their systems. The ears do not lie. BTW are there any measurements that can predict to what degree a given design will posses pleasing holographic qualities?

-Roy

[Wayner]

Roy,

Unless your close and personal to a live acoustic performance, they are usually amplified by some horrible "Shure" or "JBL" sound system that can certainly add to a fatique factor. I do agree that the source is the start of a fatigue problem, but certainly the amplified system can be the barn burner.

Wayner

[Wayner]

Back to the Insight chip upgrades........

I have finished installing the line board chips today. This, again, is not for the timid. If you want the upgrade, send the stuff into Frank.

In a short review...major upgrade. We have spread our speakers farther apart. Can't explain why and neither can Frank, but that's the story. Vinyl awesome, CDs awesome, HD FM awesome. Give me the rest of the evening to play stuff and I will report better tomorrow.

Wayner 

[timjthomas]

Back to the Insight chip upgrades........

I have finished installing the line board chips today. This, again, is not for the timid. If you want the upgrade, send the stuff into Frank.

In a short review...major upgrade. We have spread our speakers farther apart. Can't explain why and neither can Frank, but that's the story. Vinyl awesome, CDs awesome, HD FM awesome. Give me the rest of the evening to play stuff and I will report better tomorrow.

Wayner 

Wayne,

What's the nature of the upgrade?  What's changing and why?

-Tim

[Wayner]

The new chips are a new design. The nice thing is that they require no change to the rest of the circuitry like modding the power supply. It is simply plug and play. (Not for everyone as a DIY).

Certainly a larger soundstage. This really takes the Insight line and the SS design to a new level.

Wayner

[oneinthepipe]

The new chips are a new design. The nice thing is that they require no change to the rest of the circuitry like modding the power supply. It is simply plug and play. (Not for everyone as a DIY).

Certainly a larger soundstage. This really takes the Insight line and the SS design to a new level.

Wayner

Do you know how the chips do that?  I wonder what effect these chips will have in the T8 and Ultra DACs.