[Guy 13]

Hi all.
I've owned the following headphones brands:
Sennheiser HD414, 650, Stax Sigma, Grado, Sony and Pioneer.
I've also auditioned the following headphones:
BayerDynamic DT880, 990 and T1.
HiFi Man HE400
Sennheiser HD570, HD600, HD700 and HD800
and all of them have no soundstage.
The sound come or is at the top of my head.
I really don't know wher you get that soundstage thing ????
Please help me understand, maybe I am missing something.

Guy 13

[JackD201]

I really don't know wher you get that soundstage thing ????
Please help me understand, maybe I am missing something.

Guy 13

Try some binaural recordings.

[dB Cooper]

Well....

My take on headphone 'soundstage' is that is never the same as on speakers. I have heard some of the cans you mention, and previous to my HD650 owned HD555's which have a driver placed forward and angled back á la the HD800, can't really say that there is a huge difference in 'soundstage' as I understand the term. JackD is right; f you have ever heard a good binaural recording over 'phones, you may agree with me that the limitation is program material. Problem is, virtually all is mixed to sound 'right' on speakers.

Despite being dismissed as a 'gimmick' by some (hell, stereo is a 'gimmick') I find that well implemented crossfeed helps a lot with the straight-line-between-the-ears soundstage of cans. It isn't perfect but (for me anyway) makes the sound more realistic and less fatiguing. It is easily done from a computer based system as a software based solution; from analog sources a less precise analog implementation is the only option.

If anyone who owns an iphone wants to try out well-done crossfeed with a tiny investment, try downloading the app 'CanOpener' and try it on a variety of source material. It improves 'soundstage'... really.

[FullRangeMan]

Currently the larger soundstage avaliable in phones are the HD800, this is the best Sennheiser can do with the present technology.

I was informed by a local audiophile who listen the Orpheus and the HD800 at a Germany audio fair that the Orpheus sound is overwhelming but its soundstage is the usual regular size, i.e. are smaller than the HD800.
For this reason I stop at the headphones race with the HE400, any phones will never outbest a good floorstanding speaker soundstage IMO.

In my HE400 the sound is at the front top(outside) of the head in most recordings, in crap phones as Beats the soundstage is only inside the head, a very small soundstage.

So actual headphones are better than speakers in detail and tonal timbre precision, but not in soundstage size, what already a good advantage.

[dB Cooper]

So actual headphones are better than speakers in detail and tonal timbre precision, but not in soundstage size, what already a good advantage.

That is a pretty good way of putting it. It's a "pick your poison" situation. I just am happy to listen to some music.

[joessportster]

agreed no headphone can reproduce soundstage like a speaker, This was the hardest thing for me to get past when i started using headphones, However I soon found the strengths of headphones ................ DETAIL no speaker allows ME to heear the detail I can hear in headphones

I use to wonder what the hell my friends were talking about when they would discuss cables and tubes and various other nuances.........My hearing just would not allow me to pick up on this stuff..........Headphones have opened that up for me

I often found myself spending tons of $$$$$$ on gear and listening critically most of the time in search of the above to a point I lost the fun in listening..............with headphones I now know I will always have a nice pair of phones avail at least for critical and wont worry as much with a speaker set up when it comes to ultra revealing gear

[Letitroll98]

Headphone soundstage is simply way different than speaker soundstage.  For headphones I'm looking for width of the image, solid centerfill, delineation of the instruments and vocals, a sense of depth, and enough air around the instruments to make them sound like they're playing in real space.  In comparison to speakers you'll never get that illusion that musicians are playing in the room in front of you.  Even with binaural recordings I really don't ever get that using headphones.  Headphones, as mentioned, can do better with detail and tonal accuracy.

I'd recommend Stereophile's Test CD #3 track 10, Soundstage Map and Microphone Techniques for testing your headphone's soundstaging capabilities.  On my JVC HA RX 900 phones I can hear the cowbell about 20' on either side and about 40' in depth behind my head.  This collapses to much smaller dimensions when I play the music tracks on the same CD, or other music for that matter.  Nevertheless it gives you a good idea of what the maximum soundstaging capabilities of your headphones are, and a great demonstration of different micing techniques as an added bonus.

[Guy 13]

Thanks all.
I do have the Stereophile CD and I have the Chetsky Binaural CD.
I will do some serious listening with my Bottlehead Crack and my Sennheiser HD650
and get back here with my findings.

Guy 13



 

[2gumby2]

I recently purchased an iFi Micro iCan headphone amp that has something called 3D that can change the soundstage with 3 different options. I've found that I like the position that reduces the normal stereo effect. It's been a very satisfying purchase and I highly recommend it.

[Guy 13]

Try some binaural recordings.

Hi JackD201.
I've tried my Chesky binaural CD with my Bottlehead Crack and my HD650
and no soundstage or very little.

Guy 13


 

[Guy 13]

Well....

My take on headphone 'soundstage' is that is never the same as on speakers. I have heard some of the cans you mention, and previous to my HD650 owned HD555's which have a driver placed forward and angled back á la the HD800, can't really say that there is a huge difference in 'soundstage' as I understand the term. JackD is right; f you have ever heard a good binaural recording over 'phones, you may agree with me that the limitation is program material. Problem is, virtually all is mixed to sound 'right' on speakers.

Despite being dismissed as a 'gimmick' by some (hell, stereo is a 'gimmick') I find that well implemented crossfeed helps a lot with the straight-line-between-the-ears soundstage of cans. It isn't perfect but (for me anyway) makes the sound more realistic and less fatiguing. It is easily done from a computer based system as a software based solution; from analog sources a less precise analog implementation is the only option.

If anyone who owns an iphone wants to try out well-done crossfeed with a tiny investment, try downloading the app 'CanOpener' and try it on a variety of source material. It improves 'soundstage'... really.

Hi dB Cooper.
Thanks for your comments.
My sound system does not have a huge soundstage,
but it does have one,
maybe 1 feet on each side of the speakers
and about 5 feet behind the speakers.
I did listen to the HD800 with their angled drivers,
the soundstage was a little wider, but so little that purchasing
a pair of HD800 at 1,500 USD+ is a waste of  $$$.
I am not yet into the computer as a digital source,
I am still an old fashion analogue fart
and the switch to digital won't be tomorrow,
no more than after tomorrow.
I did listen to Dr. Chesky Binaural CD and there is a little wider sound stage,
but not much.



When I say little wider sound stage, I have also to say that everything is still over/above my head, not in front of me.

This is my sound stage look like.



So, no sound stage or very little sound stage,
I have to live with that, at least for now.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Currently the larger soundstage avaliable in phones are the HD800, this is the best Sennheiser can do with the present technology.

I was informed by a local audiophile who listen the Orpheus and the HD800 at a Germany audio fair that the Orpheus sound is overwhelming but its soundstage is the usual regular size, i.e. are smaller than the HD800.
For this reason I stop at the headphones race with the HE400, any phones will never outbest a good floorstanding speaker soundstage IMO.

In my HE400 the sound is at the front top(outside) of the head in most recordings, in crap phones as Beats the soundstage is only inside the head, a very small soundstage.

So actual headphones are better than speakers in detail and tonal timbre precision, but not in soundstage size, what already a good advantage.

Hi FULLRANGEMAN.
If the Sennheiser HD800 is the best of their technology,
well, their technology is nothing extraordinary.
Yes, that's right:
For now, no headphones can beat the floor speakers for soundstage.
Recording, amplifier and headphones are all doing their best to widen
the soundstage, but the soundstage is still, at best,
just a little up front of the head.
My present sound system beats hands down the sound of my
Crack + HD650 combo on sound stage and including sound quality.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother using headphones?
The headphones sound is not better and I don't need to listen privately
to my music, even when my sound system is playing full blast 96dB my wife downstairs cannot hear anything.

Guy 13


 

[Guy 13]

agreed no headphone can reproduce soundstage like a speaker, This was the hardest thing for me to get past when i started using headphones, However I soon found the strengths of headphones ................ DETAIL no speaker allows ME to heear the detail I can hear in headphones

I use to wonder what the hell my friends were talking about when they would discuss cables and tubes and various other nuances.........My hearing just would not allow me to pick up on this stuff..........Headphones have opened that up for me

I often found myself spending tons of $$$$$$ on gear and listening critically most of the time in search of the above to a point I lost the fun in listening..............with headphones I now know I will always have a nice pair of phones avail at least for critical and wont worry as much with a speaker set up when it comes to ultra revealing gear

Hi joessportster.
May I disagree with you?
Well, at least with my set up.
My sound system with it's floor speakers sound a lot better
than my headphones.
My headphones (HD650) and headphone amplifier (Bottlehead Crack)
is not a bad combo, but to my ears,
it's not better then my system
and I am not only talking about  sound stage, sound quality:
Bass, mids and highs.
Even if I switch to the HD600 that I like more than the HD650,
I know that they will never sound better than my sound system.



That's my opinion and it probably only apply to me.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

I recently purchased an iFi Micro iCan headphone amp that has something called 3D that can change the soundstage with 3 different options. I've found that I like the position that reduces the normal stereo effect. It's been a very satisfying purchase and I highly recommend it.

Hi 2gumby2.
Thanks for the link,
but I am a tube guy and a Made in USA as much as possible.
But that me, each one is preferences.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Headphone soundstage is simply way different than speaker soundstage.  For headphones I'm looking for width of the image, solid centerfill, delineation of the instruments and vocals, a sense of depth, and enough air around the instruments to make them sound like they're playing in real space.  In comparison to speakers you'll never get that illusion that musicians are playing in the room in front of you.  Even with binaural recordings I really don't ever get that using headphones.  Headphones, as mentioned, can do better with detail and tonal accuracy.

I'd recommend Stereophile's Test CD #3 track 10, Soundstage Map and Microphone Techniques for testing your headphone's soundstaging capabilities.  On my JVC HA RX 900 phones I can hear the cowbell about 20' on either side and about 40' in depth behind my head.  This collapses to much smaller dimensions when I play the music tracks on the same CD, or other music for that matter.  Nevertheless it gives you a good idea of what the maximum soundstaging capabilities of your headphones are, and a great demonstration of different micing techniques as an added bonus.

Hi Letitroll98.
I own the Stereophile's Test CD # 3 and I know about that track # 10, I've listen to it many times before. It's not my preferred test track for sound stage, but it give you an idea what your system can do.
Now, I must agree with you that with speakers, well with my speakers,
despite their good sound quality, they never give me the impression that the musicians are in front of me or with me. I can still feel that the sound comes from the speakers.
The thing about speakers disappearing is not with my system
and I would sure like to hear one system like that where you feel that the musicians are with you in the room.
Sorry to have a different views of what headphones can do
about the soundstage.
If everybody had the same opinion or would all agree about something,
the world might be boring.
No discussion, no arguments...

Guy 13





 

[pbui44]

Ever heard of the AKG K1000?  It was discontinued long ago and goes for 2-3x its original MSRP, but many say it has the widest soundstage of any headphone.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/akg/k1000_1.html

[Guy 13]

Ever heard of the AKG K1000?  It was discontinued long ago and goes for 2-3x its original MSRP, but many say it has the widest soundstage of any headphone.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/akg/k1000_1.html

Hi pbui44.
(Is that a Vietnamese nick name?)

Thanks for the link.
Very interesting read.
Why do they always have to discontinued something ahead of his time?

Guy 13

[pbui44]

Hi pbui44.
(Is that a Vietnamese nick name?)

Thanks for the link.
Very interesting read.
Why do they always have to discontinued something ahead of his time?

Guy 13

Yes, my user name is.

This item was popular, but a decent quantity needed servicing, so they eventually stopped making them.

[Noseyears]

Hi guy13,

Probably you have the same feeling as  the OP on this thread, specifically on the "Headstage" section.

[FullRangeMan]

Sometimes I wonder why I bother using headphones?

Guy 13

Same here, its more than 2 months I dont listen the HE400, its breakin stoped at 90 hours.
its like become a boring exercise.