[Jon L]

I suppose it was inevitable that VSA would jump on the cable bandwagon, but frankly, the notion that someone would, with a straight face, charge $950 for a yard of i.c., or 5k for 8 ft of speaker cable, bi wire or not, is positively laughable. Albert is not alone, by any means, but this is chicanery, pure and simple. A shame, too, since I dearly love my VSA speakers.

Haha, I wouldn't sweat it.  After years and years, Albert has just realized there is *A LOT* more profit margin in cable magic than speaker magic.   

[stewie]

Jack,

Take your suggestion, and it's a reasonable one, that cables are like fuel lines. How much does it take to get a fuel line that's moving things perfectly from point A to point B? Not much. Fuel line technology on a Ferrari Enzo is just as simple and straightforward as on a Fiat. "Dirty" fuel lines on both cause problems, but it's a simple, inexpensive problem to fix. Along comes an auto parts dealer and says, Hey, Ferrari Enzo owners, you spent 300k on your Enzo, but to reach it's full potential you'll need to spend 20k on 6 feet of cryogenically treated Zodar fuel line. Auto mag reviewers, whose livelihood depends on advertising from such companies, announce to the world that, indeed, their Enzo's performance improved with the new fuel line. And Enzo owners say, how much? Well, the car ran a lot faster. How much faster? A lot. Any stats? None. Any blind testing of magic fuel line? None. Trust me. I _felt_ the car running faster. Among car afficianados, he'd be laughed out of town. At which point, he presumably goes into the more lucrative audio cable business. 

It's presumably a bad thing if cables are "transmitting unsatisfactorily," to use your terminology. Unsatisfactory transmission in cables is a very easy thing to check electronically. You simply compare input profiles with output profiles. On this score, the transmission profiles of a 7k cable can be matched easily by cables under $100.

Yes, but there's just something about these cables that electronic calibration can't detect, you say. Okay, maybe your ears are picking up something that a machine can't. So, let's put it to a test. Five cables ranging from 7k to $100 with the same transmission profiles, double-blind test. Does anyone think one of the golden ears could detect the difference? If they could, they'd be doing it, and they haven't, so one is forced to conclude that they don't.

But maybe it's not about "perfect" transmission--maybe some cables are preferred for their signature "attenuations." Fine. In fact, having used solid state and tube guitar amps, I much prefer the "distortions" of tube amps. But the point is, "attenuations" are easy and inexpensive to create, and they don't in any case, give you "transparency" and "accuracy," the honorifics routinely applied to high-end cables. Why not just use tone controls, if it's attenuation you want?

I don't for a minute doubt that minor differences can loom large, and that some people, whether by natural gift or training or both, can detect nuances that others can't. Robert Parker, for example, can distinguish between literally thousands of wine vintages, and he has done so in blind tastings. The great ornithologist, Ted Parker, could, before he died, distinguish upwards of 6k bird calls, and he did so without, it hardly needs to be said, looking at the birds (with labels stuck on them). Why haven't the golden ears submitted themselves to such tests? And why is it, when they have, they've always shown themselves to be suddenly stricken with tin ears? Their excuses make for still more hilarious reading.

Notice what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that there's an objective way to determine what sounds _better_.  Robert Parker's ambrosia may taste like swill to me, and there's no objective way to decide who's right and who's wrong, since "right" and "wrong" don't really apply to matters of taste. What I am saying is that whatever one thinks of his taste in wine, Robert Parker can and has demonstrated the astonishing sensitivity of his pallette by _distinguishing b/t_ thousands of wines in blind tastings. Why won't cable manufacterers and reviewers demonstrate that for us? Not thousands of cables, by the way: just six. No takers? What are we to conclude?

Manufacturing costs? I'd love to see the cost breakdown for those 7k cables, and I'd love to see the same for those 130k Wilsons.

You're perfectly right about the free market, and about people w/ money being free to buy whatever they want. But people with keyboards are free as well to call snake oil snake oil, which is what makes the web such an interesting and--sometimes -- contentious place.   Cheers!
 

 

[es347]

No takers? What are we to conclude?

I suppose you could conclude that we are, at best, self-deceived or at worst, liars.  In any event, it's been a slice.

[JackD201]

Hi Stewie,

Well, first off I am trained. Secondly I would fail a double blind test on anything other than loudspeakers and cartridges I set up myself IF it were not conducted on my own system. On my own system I'd take that challenge. I know because I've done it. I couldn't tell you the name of the cable but I'd tell you every single time if the cable had been changed or not. Slip in 12 guage spool wire and I could name that.

On measurement, Capacitors of the same value sound different. Amps with the same power ratings sound different. 2 cars with the same HP and top speed feel different because they may get to that top speed either quickly or slowly. Hey a tablespoon of two different kinds of sugar one powdered and one granulated aren't the same now are they? What I'm getting at is since the scientific method was used in earnest "Observation" always came first. Measurement comes after to validate it. If your faith in machines made by man is so great, I'd love to see you build a system up purely on technical specifications alone. You could and it would work but the chances of it being satisfying on a musical level would be about the same as a double blind test of a CD and its CDR copy. 

On costs. Economies of scale my friend. Nordost or any of the costs as much as a car cable cable makers don't tool up to make hundreds of container loads full of 4 nines wire like Phelps Dodge. In fact the argument is reversed. Seeing as the fixed costs are spread out over such large volumes show me the cost vs mark up on bulk wire!  That is why I said if you are buying bulk and rebranding it then karma should have you drown in snake venom and not snake oil. But if you spent hundreds of hours studying them and making prototypes then are tooling up to extrude or cast expensive raw materials, braid them, insulate them likewise with custom made dielectrics, hand terminate them, hire people to test them on a bench, package them, market them, distribute profit margins to the retailers who will take on the risk of stocking them and who will ultimately let you the consumer try them, only to distribute all of these costs to a few hundred units worldwide I guarantee the costs will be much higher.

On fuel lines. I find it funny how loose analogies are often taken so literally. You got my point anyhow so I'll stop here on this matter.

On equalization. Hey, I'm all for it. We are currently participating in a show. Our room is the oddest concrete box you're ever likely to see. In lieu of a forest of traps that would have stretched logistics to the breaking point we opted for Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect DSP (a product we don't carry).  If the "purist" only realized how much EQ goes into a recording this anti EQ thing would have died a long time ago. Not to mention LPs. No RIAA equalization on your phonopreamp and bang. Instant frisbee collection. My beef with EQ is not its proper use but its potential for abuse. Anyone familiar with the 70's and 80's vogue of seeing stereo owners with graphic EQs set to look like a large V will know what I mean 

On value. Again I say lets leave that up to the makers, sellers and the buyers. If what your saying is anything above $100 is crazy to you then I respect that. I do hope however that you are consistent with everything in that you have benchmarked prices for everything in your life from healthcare costs, consumer goods, food items, transportation, clothing, etc.  While I frown on excess, personally I don't think there is anything wrong with anybody treating themselves to something nice and outside the budget when one feels he's earned it.

All the best to you Stewie. Happiness is a state of mind so audio bliss is in no way related to dollars. Anyone that says someone has to spend a mint just to enjoy music should be tied up over an ant hill.  Those that say people that do spend a mint are crazy should just enjoy their own systems instead of trying to judge others. If you're happy then I'm happy for you Sometimes I wish I couldn't tell the difference. Imagine how many more CDs and LPs I could buy!!!! Still I don't regret it because the same ability has put a lot of smiles on customers faces. Being a dealer is not my day job. I haven't done my accounting for the year but it contributes to perhaps only 5% of my bottom line. It is more of a hobby being able to play with all the demo goodies while escaping AWS (Angry Wife Syndrome) because the hobby now pays for itself and then some.

Have a good day!

Jack

[es347]

Jack,

If the AWS varies directly with the size/weight of the husband's speakers, your wife has to be foot-stampin' mad  aa

[JackD201]

Just yesterday at the HiFi show she asked where the TW Acustic Raven AC-3 came from. Only then did she learn that her german car turned into a german turntable! She wasn't mad at all!!!! 

Boy I love that woman! 

[es347]

I didn't know about your vinyl fetish 

[JackD201]

  Pics to follow Gavin 

[keith]

Just yesterday at the HiFi show she asked where the TW Acustic Raven AC-3 came from. Only then did she learn that her german car turned into a german turntable! She wasn't mad at all!!!! 

Boy I love that woman! 

Jack's wife actually asked me how much the Raven AC-3 was, and all I could say was "I don't know" while doing this