AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: Wharf_Rat on 12 Feb 2014, 07:08 pm
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Hi forum,
I will shortly be upgrading from my Rega and have narrowed my choices down to the Amadeus (maybe GTA) and the VPI Classic (Probably 1). I love the idea of the Amadeus. I may be able to hear it in a showroom alongside the VPI as my nearest dealer sells both. Problem is, with so many possible variables of set-up, cartridge and all other gear in signal chain, I am leery of my ears' being able to isolate elements of sound to the TT tonearm combination, particularly with a one-time listening session (nearest dealer is 3 hours away).
I have read several comparisons between the VPIs and WTLs, but they usually reduce to "the Amadeus trounced the VPI" or some such. Likewise, I have read reference to the VPI or WTL "house sounds" but am having trouble understanding precisely what's meant by that as I don't have much opportunity at all to listen to either.
I wonder if anyone could help me understand how the two brands, generally, compare to one-another sonically? Are some types of music more suitable to one or the other? I listen to lots of acoustic/bluegrass/folk music, jazz, old soul/gospel, R&B and rock (generally late 60's-early 80's stuff). Not a terrible amount of classical but would like to build a better collection there. What are the relative advantages of the two 'tables? Any significant trade-offs either way?
Apologize for asking what I am sure is a rather remedial question, but really am having a hard time sorting it out in my other reading, and fear I will not have a great amount of auditioning time. Thanks!
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Hi there, welcome to the forum!
Both are very good tables. I also was in your same position, with a highly modified P5 paired with Audiomods arm. I had the good fortune of being able to compare the Rega, VPI Classic, and the Simplex tables in my system.
Based on your taste in music and your experience with Rega, I think you've got it narrowed down well to two solid choices. With the ability to hear both tables in the same room and system, you're in the best position to take the next step. I'd try to see whether you could use the same cart on both tables, maybe one that you are familiar with, and control variables as much as possible to really hone in on the differences between the tables. Bring a variety of LPs you're familiar with - of varying quality and genres too - to see how flexible the tables are.
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Sonic signature: I'd say the VPI is more "accurate", the WTL line more "musical" using the same carts IME. VPI has a bit more frequency extension, possibly more stable speedwise, and is more dynamic, but the WTL is more liquid and coherent, and not lacking in dynamics IMHO. Midrange is richer with WTL, the VPI sounds more linear or neutral. Both are very revealing and excellent playback systems.
Drawbacks: VPI's arm design is infinitely adjustable, and is easy to do so repeatably, but I've found this cuts both ways (I find you are focusing more on the gear than the music when I listen to VPIs, always wondering whether VTA is optimal, etc.). WTL has provided some limited methods to consistently set up offset, VTA, VTF, rotation speed, and damping, but at the same time, it can be done relatively easily. If you only use one cart, then both can be set and forget.
Unipivot arms aren't for everyone, and neither is the WTL arm. However, I think the WTL arm has the tracking advantage due to the damping system. The VPI system is truly adjustable on the fly, and is very precise, but I'll tell you that a good friend and VPI devotee questioned the consistency of some VPI arm tubes which he found unequal in length though nominally the same eff length - but this doesn't mean anything other than "beware the illusion of precision", and have tools to help you get the best from your setup, regardless of make and model.
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I'd try to see whether you could use the same cart on both tables, maybe one that you are familiar with, and control variables as much as possible to really hone in on the differences between the tables. Bring a variety of LPs you're familiar with - of varying quality and genres too - to see how flexible the tables are.
+1
Dealers know that customers will want to A/B tables, and so will often have two carts of the same make that can be used for those purposes.
Here's hoping that as many variables as possible can be held the same.
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I'd also mention that in addition to set-up being set-it and forget it, with the WTL you get to avoid the upgrade bug. For better for worse.
There are a number of potential upgrade paths for the VPI, from the SDS, to suspension to platters, and to tonearms. So be incrementally improved i n ways a WTL can't.
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Thanks for all the input. I think I will see what I can arrange as far as a true A/B comparison on the two units. Part of me likes the fact that the VPI offers so much in terms of adjustments and feels I might miss that on the WTL; the other part of me could easily see being driven to madness (or perhaps simply distraction) dinking with things endlessly instead of sitting back to music.
Same story with upgrade path. Partly find great appeal in the honesty of a table that is what it is (and presumably made as well as it could be) and would be annoyed to plunk down that sort of cash only to feel like my table is somehow incomplete without, I dunno, a $700 stainless steel peripheral ring or a 3D-Printed tonearm... but then would I miss it? Impossible questions to answer!
On that topic - I actually do like the idea of the ring clamp for some of my badly warped records. Does anyone use anything to flatten things out and how does the table do with it? As I understand it, the WTL does pretty well with warps overall, but still curious.
Thanks again
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Thanks for all the input. I think I will see what I can arrange as far as a true A/B comparison on the two units. Part of me likes the fact that the VPI offers so much in terms of adjustments and feels I might miss that on the WTL; the other part of me could easily see being driven to madness (or perhaps simply distraction) dinking with things endlessly instead of sitting back to music.
Same story with upgrade path. Partly find great appeal in the honesty of a table that is what it is (and presumably made as well as it could be) and would be annoyed to plunk down that sort of cash only to feel like my table is somehow incomplete without, I dunno, a $700 stainless steel peripheral ring or a 3D-Printed tonearm... but then would I miss it? Impossible questions to answer!
On that topic - I actually do like the idea of the ring clamp for some of my badly warped records. Does anyone use anything to flatten things out and how does the table do with it? As I understand it, the WTL does pretty well with warps overall, but still curious.
Thanks again
All understandable points for sure. And as someone else said: Welcome to AC!
You are fortunate to be able to hear both tables, that more than anything will make the biggest difference.
Then if the sound is close, these other factors may come into play.
I started with the Amadeus, and the lack of upgrade temptation was very nice for a long while. Then I got a great deal on a Townshend Rock 7 (cheaper than what I paid for the Amadeus, incl a Rega 301 arm!). That was the other table I was contemplating buying when I grabbed the Amadeus. Played them side-by-side and ended up preferring the Rock (you can see my thread on the Rock on AC that compares it to the Amadeus; I largely agreed with Greene's description of the two in Absolute Sound). BUT the sound was very close. And I got some cash savings by going with what for me was a cheaper Rock. So sold the WTA. And then I had the opportunity for motor and tonearm upgrades (goodbye cash savings, big time). They have been fun, worthwhile to me for the sound I am looking for and on my budget. Got I a point that I was glad to be able to squeeze extra goodness out of the Rock platform, especially moving all the way up to a Moerch DP-8. All of this said, I am lucky to be single when doing this and not needing to explain these purchases as I try to improve an already fabulous table.
Oh, and for warped records get a Vinyl Flat. Great investment.
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I haven't compared my Versalex to the VPI but I have heard several decks over the years including the best from Linn, Rega, Brinkman and admittedly years ago Townsend. The latest WT's don't have the zing of a fully rigged LP12 or the ultra low distortion of say a top Brinkman but they are involving (through solid Pace, Rhythm and Timing), produce plenty of acoustic and detail, with low fatigue and coloration. Stick a top Dynavector cartridge in any of them and they will fair well in comparisons with any other deck IMHO.
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I have some warped LPs that only the WTL can track. I have not tried them with a VPI arm though.
I have used a periphery ring on other tables, and my previously mentioned VPI buddy will occasionally use one. IME they may flatten records, but may introduce other sonic issues.
Also, VPI add-ons other than motor upgrades really should be viewed as fine-tuning the sound you're after, rather than as performance improvements IMHO. It becomes very expensive when you're just curious, however. Then again, VPI gear tend to hold their value.
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Great input from everyone - I really appreciate it. Trying to set up the A/B comparison soon! Although my interest vacillates between the two, I still like the idea of the WTA. I would probably spring for the GTA on looks alone (although I gather it has some sonic advantage over the standard Amadeus).
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So I finally took a road trip to Atlanta, where (I must say) Alan at Audio Alternative was more than kind and accommodating, having set a VPI Classic 1 next to a Versalex, installed identical broken-in DV carts, leaving me only to sit in the sweet spot and swap records and decks to my heart's content.
I immensely enjoyed both decks, and was a bit surprised, frankly, that choosing a "winner" was harder than I'd anticipated. They both sounded great. Those having commented above surely have better ears and vocabularies here, but what consistently stood out to me between the two decks is that, for all the additional detail the VPI seemed to pull from the records, it remained somewhat deader, restrained, and two-dimensional when compared to the WTL. Additionally, there were passages where it was clear that the VPI was letting me down, comparatively, in terms of capturing the tone of acoustic instruments - noticed most prominently when spinning Alison Krauss's So Long, So Wrong, where the mandolin sounded all cotton and catgut compared to the WTL's more true-to-life rendering. More involved funky passages from Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of Life were a bit of a mess on the VPI and vastly more enjoyable on the WTL, less...tedious. I enjoyed Pink Floyd's DSOTM more on the VPI, which also seemed to better resolve the in-your-face female voice on Gone at Last, from Paul Simon's Still Crazy After All These Years. I eventually realized I'd stopped A/Bing the two tables and was just putting more vinyl onto the Versalex. All in all, clearly more open, "3D" and pleasurable on the whole than the Classic.
So I will soon have an Amadeus GTA on the way! My excitement is tempered only by the sad fact that I've now blown my budget for the moment, and the Amadeus will likely stay (mostly) boxed until I can afford to put a suitable cartridge on it (also perhaps adding a SUT to my mm phono stage). Baby steps. Thanks to all on the forum for the advice, and, again, I can't say enough good about Alan and all the folks at Audio Alternative - total analog wonderland for those of us in the southeast and a total pleasure to spend the day with.
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There are a number of great sub-$500 carts out there. The Denon 103 and 103R are popular choices.
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Congrats on your purchase, you will be happy with it. I just read this discussion and was not surprised with the results of your A/B listening session. In fact when you said the VPI was somewhat deader, restrained, and two-dimensional and did not capture the tone of acoustic instruments as well as the WTL, that was very well put and a perfect description of what I heard. I didn't do a quick comparison in fact there was 6 months between listening to the VPI Classic 3 I had and the pre-owned Amadeus MkI I later bought back in December of 2012. But immediately the WTL table sounded better than I remembered the VPI sounding, and a couple friends who heard both in my system agreed. My Amadeus has a DV-XX2Mk2, Auditorium A23 mat, and a DPS power supply. The VPI Classic 3 had a ZYX Airy 3 cart, a TT Weights copper mat and heavy weight, and the VPI SDS motor controller. Prior to the VPI I had an Acoustic Signature table with a Graham Phantom. I am completely happy with the WTL and amazed that such a simple light weight rig can sound so good.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95740)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95738)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95739)
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The results of your A/B listening session was similar to what I heard before between a VPI and a WTL. The VPI sounded dark and dull while the WTL was lively and open.
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Prior to the VPI I had an Acoustic Signature table with a Graham Phantom. I am completely happy with the WTL and amazed that such a simple light weight rig can sound so good.
]
Out of curiosity, how would you characterize the sound of the Acoustic/Graham combo to the WTL?
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Good to hear! Enjoy your table...
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So I finally took a road trip to Atlanta, where (I must say) Alan at Audio Alternative was more than kind and accommodating, having set a VPI Classic 1 next to a Versalex, installed identical broken-in DV carts, leaving me only to sit in the sweet spot and swap records and decks to my heart's content.
I immensely enjoyed both decks, and was a bit surprised, frankly, that choosing a "winner" was harder than I'd anticipated. They both sounded great. Those having commented above surely have better ears and vocabularies here, but what consistently stood out to me between the two decks is that, for all the additional detail the VPI seemed to pull from the records, it remained somewhat deader, restrained, and two-dimensional when compared to the WTL. Additionally, there were passages where it was clear that the VPI was letting me down, comparatively, in terms of capturing the tone of acoustic instruments - noticed most prominently when spinning Alison Krauss's So Long, So Wrong, where the mandolin sounded all cotton and catgut compared to the WTL's more true-to-life rendering. More involved funky passages from Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of Life were a bit of a mess on the VPI and vastly more enjoyable on the WTL, less...tedious. I enjoyed Pink Floyd's DSOTM more on the VPI, which also seemed to better resolve the in-your-face female voice on Gone at Last, from Paul Simon's Still Crazy After All These Years. I eventually realized I'd stopped A/Bing the two tables and was just putting more vinyl onto the Versalex. All in all, clearly more open, "3D" and pleasurable on the whole than the Classic.
So I will soon have an Amadeus GTA on the way! My excitement is tempered only by the sad fact that I've now blown my budget for the moment, and the Amadeus will likely stay (mostly) boxed until I can afford to put a suitable cartridge on it (also perhaps adding a SUT to my mm phono stage). Baby steps. Thanks to all on the forum for the advice, and, again, I can't say enough good about Alan and all the folks at Audio Alternative - total analog wonderland for those of us in the southeast and a total pleasure to spend the day with.
Great news, congrats on the new table, and I am WAY jealous :green:
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In answer to roscoeiii's question, It's well over a year ago so can't give a lot of specifics, but I do feel more satisfied with the WTL. I think the AS and VPI sounded very similar. Owning the Acoustic/Graham always left me a little uncomfortable because even though I got both for a decent price, it was more than I should have spent and I didn't think the sound justified the cost. Maybe high mass tables don't produce the sound I find most pleasing, but the rhythm and pace just wasn't there. And I think the bass was a bit muddy at times clouding the midrange coherence.
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Interesting follow up... That's been my listening circle's findings as well.. Now, that being said, it would be marvelous to have the machining and build quality that some of these other tables have in our beloved WTLs...
I'm thinking the Brinkmans, SMEs , etc. Yet good for us , they don't make better music... even with their pricey price tags...
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Did you have the same amplification with both the VPI and the Well Tempered?
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In answer to roscoeiii's question, It's well over a year ago so can't give a lot of specifics, but I do feel more satisfied with the WTL. I think the AS and VPI sounded very similar....Maybe high mass tables don't produce the sound I find most pleasing, but the rhythm and pace just wasn't there. And I think the bass was a bit muddy at times clouding the midrange coherence.
Thanks for these comments. Your outlook is very beneficial to me. I have been considering a second table for a long time but don't want to spend money on something that will sound worse than my WTA (one of my best audio decisions). I demoed a VPI Classic 4 but was interested in a Classic 3. I have since moved on to considering a Rega or perhaps a reprinted Garrard. But then I always come back to why get something that may sound worse than the Well Tempered.
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Did you have the same amplification with both the VPI and the Well Tempered?
For my demo, I merely swapped the cables at the back of the two tables - so everything downstream of the units was identical. Same cartridge model too, though two different units, of course.
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Wharf_Rat,
I know you didn't do a direct comparison, but I'm curious to know how you feel both the VPI and the WTL compare to your current Rega setup.
Dan
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Hi Dan,
It is hardly a fair comparison for the Rega brand, as mine was an entry level, lightly modded RP1. After having done the A/B with the Classic and Amadeus, then having swapped the Amadeus into my existing system using the same cart as was on the Rega (modest but perfectly serviceable Nagaoka MP-200 until I save pennies for an upgrade there), the main difference is that there is more of everything good, musically, and less of everything bad (motor noise, runaway bass resonance, electrical noise). What a treat to power up the Amadeus and hear nothing but inky silence before the needle touched down!
In terms of liveliness and open, engaging sound, I think even the Rega bested the VPI, though it had nothing approaching the level of refinement and poise of the Classic. Both the WTA and VPI pull more detail from the grooves, but I get the feeling that the VPI merely brought those details to my ears, while the WTA pulls me out of my head and into the music. Zoo versus safari. IMO, the WTA gives me all the involvement, engagement and joy of the Rega and close-to if not all the sheer detail/accuracy of the VPI in one package.
One difference that I was not prepared for (though should have been, having read enough and understood the different designs) in the switch from my Rega: the WTA is very much more sensitive to movement/vibration than the Rega. In my old, springy-floored house, the Rega was largely immune to all but the heaviest footfalls (tracking-wise), while with the WTA playing my dog can walk through the room and cause it to jump the groove! I plan to install a wall shelf as soon as I can which will hopefully alleviate this issue but this sensitivity surprised me. The Rega did amplify footfalls and room-borne vibration and resonance (which the WTA does not), but did not get pitchy or jump the grove as the WTA does. Not sure about the VPI as I never subjected it to my trampoline living room, but the WTA will not forgive my sloppy placement/floor deflection as my Rega did.
Hope that helps a little - Matt
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Thanks Matt. You do a great job of describing what you hear.
I love the natural, organic sound of my WTA. However, I am thinking about making a change in favor of a table that will be even easier for me and my wife to use day-in day-out even if I may have to sacrifice some sound quality [gulp]. I've wondered about VPI, Rega and Pro-ject, among others. The WTA, Project Xtension10, VPI Classic 1 and Rega RP8 are all around the same price. Based on your description, I think I'll rule out the VPI.
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if you give up your WTA,please consider seriously :D
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Thanks Matt. You do a great job of describing what you hear.
I love the natural, organic sound of my WTA. However, I am thinking about making a change in favor of a table that will be even easier for me and my wife to use day-in day-out even if I may have to sacrifice some sound quality [gulp]. I've wondered about VPI, Rega and Pro-ject, among others. The WTA, Project Xtension10, VPI Classic 1 and Rega RP8 are all around the same price. Based on your description, I think I'll rule out the VPI.
All those tables are still manual in operation. You gain an arm-lift feature, but lose out sonically. Why not just buy a decent automatic turntable( lots of choices over at Amazon) and keep the Amadeus for serious listening.
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IIRC, there is an optional armlift available for the WTA.
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You could also get a Q-Up for the end of a record.
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Dan - none of those tables will compare in sound to the WTA. I imagine you'll be sorely disappointed. Maybe look into a Rock 7. It sounds similar to the WTA, but on another level, in my experience.
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Don't know the other brands so well, but as some of you know, I upgraded from the WTA to a Rock 7, and moved up from a Rega 301 to an Audiomods, to a Moerch DP-6, then a DP-8.
SO, one clear advantage to the WTA design is that you don't have to worry about tonearm upgraditis.
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Thanks everybody. For the record (nyuck, nyuck) I'm not looking for an automatic TT. I find the WTA easy enough to operate, but I'm not happy with my "relationship" with it. This is a personal thing, but I just don't feel confident and comfortable using it and find that I'm not listening to as much vinyl as I might. But at this stage, I'm just thinking about making a change and getting a feel for what options might be out there.
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... the WTA is very much more sensitive to movement/vibration than the Rega. In my old, springy-floored house, the Rega was largely immune to all but the heaviest footfalls (tracking-wise), while with the WTA playing my dog can walk through the room and cause it to jump the groove! ....
Happy to update that this is no longer a problem! After spending a lovely Sunday wallowing in the dirt beneath my house with some concrete, jack posts and a 12 foot beam to support my overtaxed joists, I could probably host a dance party in front of my WTA. I will spare the forum any punny observations on more "solid" or "tight" bass, or anything about noise "floor," but I am very happy now that I don't have to tiptoe up to or away from my turntable now. :dance:
If only there were such payoff for the many other unsavory chores I need to do around the house.
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FYI, I will be selling my WTA and possibly my lightly used Dynavector XX2 along with it. PM me if interested. Apologies to Mike and everyone if this comment is not allowed.
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Hi there... What are you getting? Just curious...
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Not definite, but I'm leaning toward the Pear Audio Analogue Robin Hood with their better arm.
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Wow, that's great.... They're been on my list to hear. Looks like the better Tom Fletcher designs, and not the big mess that Nottingham tables headed to. Write back if you do, love to hear about it. They look like/ or similar to old WTL classics. Could be cool....
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The Pear Audio Robin Hood is a looker, I wish that there was more information around on them as well as the Cornet tonearms used. Still love the WTL's though...
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I thought Fremer reviewed one... sorry I haven't looked for it yet...two of my friends recommend them, if that's worth a hill of beans...
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I'm looking for a good home for my WTA. PM me if you want details. I also have a custom plexiglass cover for it.
Dan
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Hi Dan,
What are you switching to?
Good luck with your sale.
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I got the Pear Audio Robin Hood tt with their top arm, the Cornet 2. Sounds good but different from the WTA. I should mention that I am asking only $1,000 for my WTA.
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drubin the Robin Hood turntable priced at "around $3000 with Coronet 1 tonearm has does not address vibrations the way the WTA does. I guess you live in a vibration free environment unlike me where a full glass of water on top of a table shows ripples moving thru the water's surface. So what cartridge will you run?
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I got the Pear Audio Robin Hood tt with their top arm, the Cornet 2. Sounds good but different from the WTA. I should mention that I am asking only $1,000 for my WTA.
pm sent about the WTA. Coming from an early 90's WTRP so quite a leap I expect.
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Drubin, I know this is a WTL site, but would be interested in your take on the Pear table and differences you hear versus the WTL you have/had.
I too have been somewhat interested in this table, and since I already own a pair of Larsen Model 4 speakers, could be an interesting combo. Larsen and Pear are distributed by the same guy as you probably know already.
I don't own a table yet, but looking down the road it would seem that it potentially comes down to WTL or the Pear Audio for me as well, once I make the leap, that is.