[steve f]

My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.

Steve

[macrojack]

My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.

Steve

Come to Colorado. Leave McCain country behind. We treat people much better up here. Our climate is similar - just not quite so hot. And solar is encouraged.

[rpf]

If you live where electricity if expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.

Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.

I live in south FL, where solar should be ubiquitous but it is not even common. Which is a scandal. Though I have only looked cursorily, there don't seem to be many well established companies here. There has been no government encouragement for solar here in several years although that may change with a grass roots referendum effort currently underway.

With last year's plunge in fossil fuel prices, I still think there's a place for tax credits in order to rapidly and greatly expand the number of installed solar units nationwide to significantly reduce our greenhouse emissions quickly. Most places do not have California level utility rates and many people will require a shorter payback period to stimulate them to take the "trouble" to research and invest.

[weatherman1]

Some power companies operate solar farms.  Individuals can lease one or more panels and get the energy credit on their electric bill.  Price is reasonable, they handle maintenance as a cost of business for the grid, and you don't have those initial up front costs.  I too live in sunny Colorado.

[macrojack]

Maybe we are looking at only half of the equation on payback times. In my case I anticipate a payback of less than 7 years. The useful life of my solar panels is projected to be 25 years or more. That means that I can take my savings figure for this year and multiply it by 18 or more years to determine my profit on this investment. Of course that number should also be providing additional interest as the rate per KW increases each year. I anticipate a 4.5% increase in electric rates going forward because that is how much it has averaged over the last 10 years.
I paid about $900/yr. for electric power the year prior to my install in Nov. 2015. Following the 4.5% annual increase over 25 years triples my annual bill to $2705. If I average the $900 and $2700 figures, I find an average of $1800/yr. for that period. Multiplying that $1800 times my 18 remaining years after payback, I get a profit of $32,400. This does not take into account my rebate checks at an average of about $20/month for 10 or 12 years ( I forget the number). Let's just leave that aside for potential out of warranty repair or maintenance.
What that would mean is that I earned $32,400 free and clear after repaying my initial $12,000 investment. Do the numbers look correct? They do depend on the projected increase in electric rates which could potentially improve my numbers if they were to increase at a rate greater than what I was told to expect.
I'll be 68 in August of this year so I would have to live here until I'm 92 for all of this to happen, which is not in line with projections. So maybe I will sell before the 25 years elapses. That leads us to the topic of resale. There may well be more money made there.
If the price goes down further and the efficiency goes up in the future as anticipated, you might find you wish to upgrade what you have. Or you may sell your current home in the future and decide to install a newer, shinier, better solar array on the new domicile. Nothing lost in any of that.
Some climates are better for solar and some governments are more progressive in the face of solar development. That's just a fact. But the chances that you will seek out a more solar friendly environment in old age are pretty high since geezers usually look to flee winter.
Just some more things to consider.

[JLM]

My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.

Steve

Nearly half of my bill is for "delivery" versus "supply" charges.  Sounds like we're being asked to go fully off the grid.  New/lower cost technologies are making it more attractive all the time.

As always, the best first step in reducing consumption or be energy independent is to conserve.  Ideas/reminders include: 

Phase One - Swap out to LED light bulbs, caulk, weatherstripping, setting back thermostats, shutting heat/cooling to unused parts of the house, change furnace filters regularly, opening and closing window blinds/curtains to correspond to the weather, and turning off/unplugging unused appliances, pick up a cheap food thermometer (calibrate by putting in ice water and turning the hex nut under the display) to set your refrigerator to 40F and freezer to 0F (most home units are set colder than necessary). 

Phase Two - Finding which appliances (like cable TV boxes) use power even when not in use and unplugging or putting on timers, install a programmable thermostat, on windy days run a cigarette lighter/match/tissue along windows/doors/exterior water spigots/electrical boxes on exterior surfaces to check for leaks and caulk some more, caulk around water lines that penetrate exterior walls, sealing/insulating hot water lines and ductwork, and of course adding insulation where possible. 

Phase Three - Then get an energy audit (many utilities offer them for cheap/free), to get the maximum benefit from the audit (the easy/massive losses would mask the hidden ones). 

Consider downsizing if your family has gotten smaller or downsizing/eliminating appliances (for us that'd be the 50 gallon water heater or the freezer).  If you're in an all electric house, look into split system heat pumps that gives zone control and more modern/efficient space conditioning.  Solar water heating provides a better payback than PV.

[Atlplasma]

Maine completes value of solar study.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/maine-completes-value-solar-study

[steve f]

Jlm, Ive done most of the things on your list. I've downsized, I run mostly led lighting, replaced my windows and doors. We live in an all electric area. The cost reduction is significant.

Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.

steve

[macrojack]

Atlplasma - Thank you for that find. What an illuminating article.

Something else to consider about our current model of electric production is the fact that 70% of the juice produced at the source is expended getting the juice to its point of use. That tells me that we could reduce our pollution by 70% if we produce that same electricity on site where it will be used.

For those who haven't considered any of this, the grid is a substitute for batteries. Solar will not produce anything if your panels are covered with snow or the clouds are blocking out the sun or at night. Under those conditions, you need battery power or a grid tie to keep your service current (get it?). In Colorado I pay about 14 cents per KW and sell it back at about 4,5 cents per. Those ar defined as wholesale and retail rates and the utility is permitted to limit the size of your system to 120% of your average monthly consumption over the previous 12 months. Only one of the players in that scenario gets rich. Colorado is an extraction state, however, so we are very much at the mercy of the energy conglomerates.
However, the same plebiscite process that got us legalized marijuana could, at some point, overthrow the influence of corporations over our choice to not pollute. Doesn't it bother anyone else that we are allowing corporate greed to compromise our living conditions.
I don't know about you, but I quit smoking because I realized what it was doing to my lungs. Now I'm faced with being forced to "smoke" simply by breathing in the only air available. And the only reason I can see why this is true is the protection of stock prices by our lawmakers. Together, each of us making his own paltry contribution, we can take our air quality back. Today is the day we should start the process.

[dwk]

In Colorado I pay about 14 cents per KW and sell it back at about 4,5 cents per. Those ar defined as wholesale and retail rates and the utility is permitted to limit the size of your system to 120% of your average monthly consumption over the previous 12 months.

I assume you're talking about getting 4.5 cents/kWh for selling a net surplus back to the utility. In CO I thought that everywhere was true Net Metering - your generated power directly offsets your consumption at retail rate until you run a surplus, and then you get the wholesale rate on any surplus.
 Our system is finally up and running. We went through a bit of stalling and 'lost paperwork' and it took longer to get from the panel installation to power-on than it should have. We've been doing pretty well during the stretch of good weather - more than covering our usage.

[macrojack]

Jlm, Ive done most of the things on your list. I've downsized, I run mostly led lighting, replaced my windows and doors. We live in an all electric area. The cost reduction is significant.

Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.

steve

Steve - The audio system should certainly be considered in these calculations but it runs on electricity only in every case I can imagine. That means you can power it for free once you have your own production at hand. Nonetheless, the amount of electricity you need determines how much production capability you need to buy. Considering how much we spend on components, it does't seem like adding one extra panel and one extra inverter to your system at a cost of maybe $550 is outlandish. Most of us seem to be comfortable dropping that kind of money on tubes or phono cartridges that have a much shorter life expectancy.

All that being said, I'd still recommend D class amplification. I have a Jeff Rowland  Continuum S2 integrated amp with onboard phono card that will rival anything else out there. It is compact, runs cool, eliminates some cables and uses very little of the precious juice. It is pretty expensive though at nearly $10K. I also have a pair of Ncore 400 home brew mono amps that get very close for much less money. Many other companies are creating alternatives all the time so the choices and budget range are generous nowadays. Or you can just buy one extra panel.

[macrojack]

I assume you're talking about getting 4.5 cents/kWh for selling a net surplus back to the utility. In CO I thought that everywhere was true Net Metering - your generated power directly offsets your consumption at retail rate until you run a surplus, and then you get the wholesale rate on any surplus.
 Our system is finally up and running. We went through a bit of stalling and 'lost paperwork' and it took longer to get from the panel installation to power-on than it should have. We've been doing pretty well during the stretch of good weather - more than covering our usage.

dwk - You are correct. I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

I see that you are in Denver. I am way out west in Fruita. When I lived on the front range I got my power from Xcel Energy - just as I do now. Xcel came out after final inspection and replaced my consumption meter, at the same time adding a production meter. The difference between those two meter readings is my net consumption. That, as I understand it, is net usage figure. If I have used more than I produced, I pay 14 cents per KW. If I produced more than I consumed, they have to buy it from me but they pay only 4.5 cents for my KWs. I'm OK with that discrepancy because they have to operate and maintain the source of my night time electricity. The cost of restoring service after an outage is on them if it occurs off my property.

[nickd]

Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.

Steve has a very good point.

I live in Southern CA and have been getting estimates on solar. The prices are still very high. You can buy all the parts for less than 10k and the retailers here want 25k installed. On my house it's quite an easy installation as I have already prepared the breaker panel and my south-west facing roof is a newer 40yr comp with a nice 3:12 pitch. I am having a hard time getting the math to work on 25K even with our crazy CA rates and the federal rebate.

Switching to Class D for the warmer summer months seems like a good Idea for me. We tend to be busy in the summer months and have windows open etc. I can hook up the big high bias mono blocks in the winter for warmth and critical listening. I think my AC will enjoy less cycling if it is not having to overcome my amps heat output too. I may start with the NAD 7050 this summer and see how I like it. I may even take my class A running preamp out of the system to save some in room heat and energy use.

[rollo]

  No, much to expensive in NY. About 40K. Price needs to come down first. For me using taxpayer money to for a credit makes our elec more expensive. Cannot support that. But that's me.


charles

[Bizarroterl]

We installed a 4.5KW system over 15 years ago.  Last I checked neighbors were paying in the low $300s a month for power (years ago).  I just can't relate.   Our monthly electric cost is about $5 for the tie in and once a year there's a true up that ends up being about $150.    Maintenance consists of climbing up onto the roof and washing the collectors off once a year.  Ours was a early system but it still paid itself off in about 12 years.

I tell everyone I bought a cheap car that has no maintenance costs, no insurance costs, increased my home's value, will last 25+ years, and writes me out a check every month to cover my power bill. 

[rajacat]

  No, much to expensive in NY. About 40K. Price needs to come down first. For me using taxpayer money to for a credit makes our elec more expensive. Cannot support that. But that's me.


charles

Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are  intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up, i.e., privatize profits, socialize costs. 

[macrojack]

Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are  intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up.

The people who have it better than everyone else tend to favor the status quo. They look with jaundiced eye toward anything that might diminish their disproportionate advantages. Some are simply misinformed. This thread is for them. Still others are just party line, knee jerk followers of certain dogma because that was their indoctrination, and no amount or kind of fact or logic will displace their prejudices. I have no idea which you are addressing in Charles.

On a more cheerful note, the sun is shining bright here in Fruita, Colorado and my panels are cranking. Electricity is my product and the solar installation is my means of production. Because of monopoly, I cannot have any customers besides myself. That severely limits the growth prospects of my business but does not put me out of business. And I know that even with only one customer, I will begin to turn a profit in a few years.

[Pez]

Here in Colorado we have a law that dictates we can only go to 99% solar. So that's what we're doing. We just had the surveyor out today and will be 99% solar by the end of the month. Can't wait.

[Sparky14]

No solar for me! But only because I live in a place where we use a heater or A/C maybe 10 days total over a year. Lucky! My max electricity bill for a 3000 sq.ft. house has been around $90 (that was a hot month!).

A couple of years ago, I was considering a job offer in Phoenix. Then it would have been a definite yes.

[JLM]

No solar for me! But only because I live in a place where we use a heater or A/C maybe 10 days total over a year. Lucky! My max electricity bill for a 3000 sq.ft. house has been around $90 (that was a hot month!).

A couple of years ago, I was considering a job offer in Phoenix. Then it would have been a definite yes.

So if I may ask, where do you live?