[azryan]

Ok... boring stuff out of the way first....

The Centurion I built is (exterior)  41.75" wide, 12.25" tall (same as the Alpha’s width), 5.75" deep at the ends and 15.5" deep at the center.
The 6 neo/woofer sections are each on a 10 degree angle and the monster weighs ~100 lbs. finished.

It’s about 3 or 4db less sens. than the Alphas from my seat.

I have been VERY against center speakers for years -never feeling little MTM’s blended with large floor standers, or similar but not the same drivers used even if the center and mains are similar size.

Or the center is often placed on top of a TV where it’s higher (often FAR higher) than the mains making the imaging ark like a rainbow instead of panning straight across a horizontal line (under a screen for some reason seems to work much better IMO and usually doesn’t create a U-shaped panning reverse of that ‘rainbow effect’).

In the case of the Alphas I felt I needed no center speaker because the imaging is terribly sharp and for my wife and I sitting near center a phantom center worked perfectly IMO.

So WHY did I build this center speaker? One was I just wanted to try it. It’s a radical design unlike any center I’ve ever seen or heard and I wanted to try to build it and see how it worked.
Also... for 5.1 music like DVD-A/SACD there seems to be an issue of the center chan info not being able to be downmixed in certain cases.
I wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing anything in these cases but IMO still not a very good reason to build this sucker but I did anyway. Oh well...
   

Here we go...

First off.. My Alphas are about a year old and broken in. The Centurion is obviously all of one day old and not broken in much at all (though Danny did have all these drivers running at his shop while designing the x-over).
         
Also the Bolder Cable modded Pannie XR45 I’m using has over a month of break in on the main output but again... all of one day on the center output.

The Centurion, using the exact same woofer and neo panel as the Alphas sounds tonally the same as the Alphas which was good to hear, BUT the Alphas sound like a highly polished/refined version of the Centurion.
For now I think it’s reasonable to chalk this up to a matter of break in.

Also this might be due to a slight degrading by using DPLII to send identical L/R info to the center but this is all done digitally and should be a very clean process and DPLII is very highly regarded so I think probably not much of the reason in ‘quality’ diff. between center and mains.

I have the Centurion’s face aimed up at the seated ear height (or a tad above), and ~15" from the floor.
It’s ~11' from my seat vs. ~13' for the Alphas (with the Pannie’s time delay set to compensate for this).

First thing I threw in was this Chesky/Stereo Review test CD meant to test both stereo and Pro-Logic settings (it’s a little old but perfect for a test like this).

I used the DPLII-Music setting most of the time and set my surrounds to ‘OFF’ so it was only a matter of 2 vs. 3 chan.

In the stepped pan test it showed to be a great tonal match and pan as well in 2 or 3 chan.   

I was worried about the image height matching the Alphas. In ‘theory’ with the line being tipped horizontally it will project vertically mimicking the Alpha’s height.
 
If it were a flat face you’d have to sit within it’s 42" width for it to not drop off hence faceting the face in 10 degree sections.

Well.... it works!

I believe the woofers for sure need some real heavy break in still but neo break in pretty fast and the center images very much like the Alphas -meaning that most of the broad middle section of the audible range images a little above ear height.
Higher and lower tones will image a little higher and lower respectively but in a very natural way.

On the test CD the dude narrarating the diff. test section intros sounded like he was talking dead center from my RPTV screen.
Screen center is about 4' high, while the speaker itself is ~15" off the floor. It totally disconnected from the speaker. I was very impressed!

Test tones on the CD showed what Danny already exlpained before I built this... There’s no real bottom end. It’s sealed and by design begins to roll off at in the 60's-70's.

This is meant to be run with a sub. I think that’d be no prob. though for anyone setting up a surround system using speakers like this but up to others to decide fore themselves of course.

Perhaps one of Danny’s new subwoofer designs in a 3-way with this speaker using the sub as the center stand -if someone wanted all full range mains and to forgo a corner sub?

A track on a Patricia Barber CD has a great drum solo and there’s a nice slightly off center ride cymbal being tapped.
Even w/ next to no break in this is imaging about 4-5' in the air and presents the room depth in the recording as if coming from behind my RPTV (which is covered with a soft fat cloth for reflection damping).

There’s several drum rolls in the track too and it pans great as it passes from R to C to L, etc...

I can set the DPLII Center Width setting from 0 to 7.
0 -being that the center chan gets pretty much all identical left and right chan info.
7 -being that the mains gets everything (turns the center chan off).
1-6 blend between all three speakers.
So while I’m listening I can scroll from 0,1,2,3 etc.. to 7 and back to 0 back and forth and hear the diff.

Mainly it’s the simple fact that the center doesn’t have the bass the Alphas do and that, as I said, the ‘quality’ of the center just isn’t as good as the long broken in mains.

Other than that it’s pretty much the same tonal and image-wise.

When using this Centurion... it seems that the listener predominantly hears the center info as coming from the woofer/neo section that’s aimed most directly at them.

Meaning it pretty much seems like you have a vertical 3rd Alpha for a center chan and you happen to have it aimed right at wherever you happen to be sitting.

I didn’t expect it to work this well right off the bat. Hell, I didn’t know what it would actually do.

I thought it very well could be quite quirky in any number of ways due to such a wild design.

Talking to Danny when he was about to ship it back to me... he didn’t want to tell me any opinions because he didn’t want to color my own opinions at all.

That’s IMO a VERY brave thing to do. Most speaker designers will be more than happy to tell you they’ve made perfection and rave as loud as any customer could.

This ‘not telling me any of his opinions’ did make me a bit more nervous than I already was about what it’d do though.

Plus he sold his own Alphas recently so couldn’t test how they blended with them. That really made me nervous. I didn’t want to be an experiment.

Well, now that I’m hearing it... that nervousness is gone.

What else...

Being ~42" wide this does off-set the center image a small bit vs. a tiny center speaker when waaaay off-axis but most people will have a video screen as wide or wider than this if they had this speaker I suspect so.... when watching a DVD you’re mind 100% ties what’s happening to the screen.

There’s no imaging problem at all from the width of the speaker being so wide IMO.

Adjusting the DPLII Center Width 0 to 7 back to 0 when I was on the far left side of my 17.5' wide room I could easily hear the center image go from centered/nice and tight (mainly seeming to come from the endmost woofer/neo section in the Centurion) to totally blurred out with the info coming only from the mains and back to tight again.

I of course never ever ever listen to music or watch movies like that but if someone reading this does... this speaker works great as a matching center to the vertical Alpha line IMO.

Walking side to side across the room standing up the image height stayed the same as the Alphas and the center image stayed locked on you like someone was turning the speaker to keep it aimed at you.

Personally I think I (sadly) proved to myself that my wife and I don’t at all need a center speaker like I have been claiming for years.

The Alphas are just outstanding in their phantom center image when you’re within any reasonably close to center spot while watching a movie and listening to music (where most people would be sitting 100% dead center I’d think anyway).

I put in this DTS 5.1 music sampler to test out discrete 5.1 recordings and there’s a great test track for this... BoyzIIMen’s a capella (sp?) Version of the Beatles’ ‘Yesterday’. Very dorky/femmy IMO, but recorded well.
Each dude is in their own speaker. The imaging of the center dude matched great again for height.

I haven’t watched much on DVD with it yet.

Oh.... the woofers are not shielded.
Having the Centurion just below my RPTV my convergence was getting outta wack. I forgot about that.

This wouldn’t be a problem if the speaker were on top of the RPTV but I would NEVER put a speaker anywhere near this friggin’ heavy on top of a cheap RPTV cabinet (which is all of them).

Plus again the issue of the center then being WAY too high up ‘rainbowing’ the side to side panning.

Also probably terribly hard to aim down this sectioned face and keep it from falling. It’d take some clever rigging to secure it.

I’ve pulled the speaker forward about 6" and I’ll see if that totally fixes the magnet issue.

If someone wanted it right in front of their RPTV I’d think you’d need some bucking magnets on the woofer motors to cancel that magnetic pull from the rear of the speaker on the CRT guns that are also below the RPTV’s screen.
I don’t know if that would effect the speaker? I never used ‘em. Only read about ‘em.

So IMO overall GREAT news for Danny and for people looking to have standing height line source speaker mains and NEED a matching center that will fit under a screen or behind a screen and still tonally and imaging-wise match the mains while hitting people sitting center or WAY off center the same.

For me though it seems to prove I still don’t need a center speaker.

I figured.... what the hell... for the cost of it and the Alphas I couldn’t go wrong and had already paid the extra cost to get the Pannie’s center channel modded and with a Bybee filter on it along with the main outputs so I needed a center speaker to hear that.

Very fun to build the cabinet -which I did a few months ago (never do it now that it’s 108 out here!!)

Faster than building Alphas but more difficult having no plans to work off of and some tricky angles.

Soldering the x-over and installing obviously was easy and only took a few hours even with REALLY taking my time to be 100% sure I was connecting the right stuff to other stuff.

Worked right off the bat though. Only my 3rd speaker I’ve built along with the Alphas. (I also built several sonotube subwoofers but that’s just so easy it hardly counts IMO).

Here’s to hoping I get to take advantage of this great speaker being in my room in the future.
 
I give it a stamp of approval but personally not thrilled for my own situation.

I’ll try to answer any questions people have about it if I can, and plan on letting this sucker break in a lot more and see how it’s quality matches the Alphas later on.

Hope this was more like an interesting article than a long-winded post.

[JoshK]

Your post was an interesting read, even though I don't own Alphas.  Your comments on no center channel reflect my own for movie watching with just me and the missus.

I think it looks pretty cool sitting there, I like your choice of black to no call attention to itself.  Also, did you build that stand?  Looks pretty cool.

[wshuff]

Azryan had some trouble getting the picture to upload, so I put it in my gallery.  Azryan, please send a completed Centurion for compensation.

[wshuff]

Or maybe you  could just send that little thing out front with the blue base.  That looks fun, what is it?

And what's that other thing you have standing up in the back behind the TV?

And, oh yeah, thanks for the review.

I am a bit confused though.  Please clarify.  You seem to think that the Centurion met or exceeded your expectations for what a center channel should do, but you still say you don't think you need a center?  Is that just because given your seating position, the performance with and without a center (using phantom imaging) is similar enough that the center channel doesn't add anything, or is the center channel worse than phantom imaging?  And as far as needing a center for audio that doesn't downmix a center, you aren't saying that now that you have a center it confirms that you are getting the same performance without one?

Man, sorry, it's late and I don't know if my questions make any sense at all.  If not, I'm going to just claim exhaustion and deny that I ever even posted.

[azryan]

Thanks for putting the pic up.
I tried twice to put it on the gallery and it didn’t go?? Even after downloaded the processing and saving window (or something like that) came up and just stayed there doing nothing?

“-Or maybe you could just send that little thing out front with the blue base. That looks fun, what is it?-“

Seriously? You never saw a PS2?? Get thine self to toys ‘r us man! hehe. Picketh up Silent Hill 3 while you're at it. Scarier than any horror movie.

“-And what's that other thing you have standing up in the back behind the TV?-“

The BIG rectangle you mean?

It was originally the frame I built for a front projector I had. Wife and I got rainbows from the color wheel though so I returned the DLP projector and got the RPTV instead. At the time much better picture contrast and only a little smaller screen for the same price and no bulbs to buy.

I might do things diff. now. FP's are just charging forward in preformance/value while RPTV's are the same performance/price as when I got mine.

60% of my room (the audio end) is an addition made of perform panel which is polystyrene and cement block. Makes for great sound and temp. insulation but hard echos left untreated.

I found I had a bad front to back echo so I covered the frame in a roll of yellow fiberglass (meant to wrap around a waterheater) and covered that in a thin white sheet I soaked in one of the paint colors I used on my walls.

The paint makes the cloth a slight bit reflective (vs. exposed ugly fiberglass) but overall it very much killed that one bad echo I had.
My room's pretty dead.

You can’t tell from the picture but my room is darker most of the time and lit will side wall sconces. Most people don’t even notice that HUGE ~85" screen above/behind the RPTV.

You can PM me if you want anymore info not about the Centurion.

“And, oh yeah, thanks for the review.-“

No prob.

“-You seem to think that the Centurion met or exceeded your expectations for what a center channel should do,-“

I’d say ‘meet’ not exceed. Just meeting my expectation of working correctly is a lot though I think. In fact I can't think how it could exceed working correctly so that's about a good as I can say it is.

“-but you still say you don't think you need a center?-“

'Mostly', yeah. Not 'totally' though I have to admit.

 “-Is that just because given your seating position, the performance with and without a center (using phantom imaging) is similar enough that the center channel doesn't add anything, or is the center channel worse than phantom imaging?-“

We watched a discrete 5.1 DVD last night (‘Monster’. Very good BTW, but not really a story I was that interested in seeing told)... so I tested that for ‘phantom’ vs. 'actual' center.


The ‘actual center’ DID lock the info to the center a little better than ‘phantom’ with both of us sitting just a little off center -which is about as close to dead center as two people can sit.


I sat on the couch against the side wall and of course it still totally tied to the center -something obviously a phantom center can’t possibly do at all.

This is more a matter not of ‘does this center speaker work’ so much as ‘how much better does it work for the work to build and price, etc...’

It’s not WAY better than a phantom center for just my wife and I sitting nearish center. It is a 'little' better though so I guess I can’t say a phantom center is totally perfect.

It is of course cheaper and easier to only use 2 speakers rather than 3. Gonna come down to a person’s actual use of their HT I think.

For me it’s a small improvement for a lot of money -though in relative terms you can’t possibly buy a LARGE 12 driver curved line center speaker or anything like it for the price, so for what it is.... it’s an outstanding bargain along with the Alpha mains IMO.

Does an outstanding value that has little practical value to me make sense?

“-And as far as needing a center for audio that doesn't downmix a center, you aren't saying that now that you have a center it confirms that you are getting the same performance without one?-“

Currently I only have Floyd’s DSotM on 5.1 SACD and a SACD sampler.

On those it seems like the center info is also mixed into the mains. I’d think this should make the levels imbalanced but it seems to work.

That subject is just crazy IMO. 5.1 music is just a mess. I’m not that into surround music anyway so I’m thinking I’ll hardly use this center speaker -making the break in all that much looooonger to get through.

It takes a while to set the DVD player's SACD output from center ON to Off to hear the diff. but it seems the same 'cuz I'm sitting dead center either way and either the center info is being downmixed and/or the center info was already mixed into the main channels also.

The woofer section does need to soften up/break in.

It’s not as open as it should be. That’s how the Alphas are at first too. Still works really good but I know it’ll get much better/more open.

I kept my Alphas closer together than Danny rec. because imaging wasn't as sharp with them pulled so far apart.
Months later I tried it again and it was as sharp.

[klh]

Danny,

If someone wanted (hypothetically) to have a larger center speaker with the full complement of Neos and mids and didn't want to have it against the wall (so it would have the same ports in the back), would the crossover of the alphas have to be altered, or could one just have the speakers angled slightly off one another (like in the Centurion but maybe 8 degrees instead of 10) while keeping the same internal volume? The reason why I'm asking is one could order a single alpha kit for the center, lay it horizontal, and have it modified slightly to increase lateral sound dispersal, and then have a center channel speaker more suited for a really large room.

I'm sure the Centurion is all one would need, but I'm curious. One would have to have one hell of a stand to support the weight of an alpha on its side   .

Thanks...

[azryan]

"-One would have to have one hell of a stand to support the weight of an alpha on its side-"

The 'stand' my Centurion is on is two cement fence blocks capped with MDF and wrapped in scrap red birch veneer from my Alphas and subs.

They cost 50 cents each.

You can buy assorted cement blocks from Home Depot and liquid nails MDF on and veneer them.  You could even router the edges like a speaker cabient. No one would know it's cement inside.

You can pack the cement with sand too if you felt like it.
 
Any of those blocks would easily support the weight of an Alpha tipped on it's side.

"-and then have a center channel speaker more suited for a really large room.-"

I don't think that would be any more well suited to a really large room than the Centurion though.

From a distance of ~11' from the center you can sit anywhere across my room and get the same center info.

Further distance the wider the spread.

Doesn't matter how big a room is though really beyond that IMO 'cuz you'll be WAAAAY off axis from the screen (seeing it at a very bad angle) and either WAAAAY off balance with the main and surround speakers or you'd have the mains/surrounds SO far apart you couldn't get good imaging/panning/blending anyway.

But that'd be talking about a room like a commerical movie theater.

Maybe guys we could stick to the Centurion in this thread though now and start diff. treads about other subjects like diff. hypothetical speakers (I rememeber this coming up before when the Centurion was fist being talked about).


I took a lot of time to write the first post. I'd hate to see this drift into all sorts of subjects ok? thanks

[klh]

Sorry... I didn't mean to hijack your post. I was just curious about a variation of what you did.

[klh]

Azryan,

As a follow up to your impressions of the Centurion... how do you think it would work as a surround speaker (if it could be elevated high enough)? I'd bet it would be great for people seated in various locations around the room... particularly if it there are multiple rows of seats. I would think the greatest difficulty would be elevating it to a proper height while still being stable... I don't think an animal or kid would do too well if it fell over on one... and the speaker might get damaged, too!

[Danny Richie]

would the crossover of the alphas have to be altered

Yes, the crossover would have to be changed.

Not a problem though.

I guarantee you that if you wanted to build one, you could, and I'd help you too.

[azryan]

The Centurion doesn’t strike me as that great an idea for a surround speaker BUT...  the issue of ‘what’ a surround speaker actually is FAR more debatable than mains and center -hence people using monopoles, di/bi/quadpoles and that wild new upfiring A/V1 Danny just posted pics of.

I’d like to keep this thread from turning into that debate though.

I really think a vertical Alpha would work better and fit better in a room as a surround and of course be the most perfect match to Alphas mains.
You get all the effi., soundstage height and though a much larger speaker it has a smaller footprint.

Maybe a Centurion as a single rear surround though?

Normally I consider monopoles best for all channels but in a 6.1 system a monopole rear surround can actually sound like it’s coming from the front ruining the rear panning.

Since the Centurion aims in curved 10 degree sections listeners ‘might’ not have that ‘rear sounds like front’ problem.

I can turn my back to my front end and try it, but for the work and trouble of the Centurion I’d stick with it only as a front center where it’s radical design really comes into play.

Klh, when do think you’ll decide what speakers you’re going to build? I’ve noticed you asking a lot about assorted designs diff. places and coming up with varriations as if the current designs won’t do what you want. But I haven’t seen you say what you want to do or why the current things out there won’t do it.

Just wondering if you’re near having enough info to pull the trigger on something specific or if there are still a lot of questions that remain unanswered for you?

You can PM me if you want to chat about your specific HT room you’re looking to do (it sounds like it’s HUGE) and what you’re looking to hit in the room from whatever speakers, and seats, type of screen/size of screen etc...
                        
I think I could help ya sort out what would work best for you.

[wshuff]

Hey, I just checked the gallery and well...yours is up.  Guess it just took a few days for it to post.  So your pic of the Centurion (the same one as above) is now in the gallery under your name.

[wshuff]

So now you've had a few days to listen to the Centurion.  I don't recall how long you said it took the Pannie to settle in when you first got it, but has there been any change in the sound now that you are using the center channel, er, amp for a convenient word?

And have you picked up any additional multi-channel hi-rez music to see what the Centurion can do there?

Also, given the sealed design, I'm assuming that the Centurion isn't being run full-range.  Does your DVD-A/SACD player even allow for bass management?  I know you said you had DSOTM, which is SACD, right?  Some players allow rudimentary bass management for one format but not the other.  If that is the case, I suppose that adding the center channel into the mix could conceivably make things worse, if, that is, the player allowed downmixing for use without a center BUT doesn't provide proper bass management when one is used.  In that case you would, I suppose, be throwing bass away when the center was in the mix.

Anyway, just curious whether there is anything new to report.

[azryan]

Last questions first... my player does allow bass mang. I believe both SACD and DVD-A -or that's what it looks like it's letting me do.

I have the center set to small and on Dark Side (no new 5.1 discs yet) there's so much info being sent to the fronts too I think that it-

1). mixes correctly, but...

2). probably couldn't tell which was 'wrong' if if wasn't doing the bass mang. correctly.

These formats are just crazy. esp. balancing the LFE on 5.1 music vs. DVD's.

As for the first question on how the Centurion's coming along...

I haven't really done a follow-up 'test' since just seeing how it initially imaged and sounded.
I use it in 5.1 DPLII all the time for TV and music now to break it in.

Watched Return of the King (which we saw last week sans Centurion) and it sounded like a really great solid soundfield with the center in the mix and did tie the info to the center better than a phantom center can even with my wife and I both sitting 'almost' center on our love seat.

With a large screen (a 65" RPTV for us, or anyone with a FP screen) the image is SO big that even when sitting off center and getting a little imbalance from a phantom center your mind still ties the audio as coming from the stuff you see on the screen.

So I still think I could still be plently happy with a phantom center but I think an actual center IS growing on me.

I think it's a matter of weighing it's value more than how does it work.
It really does work really well.

My wife said yesterday... 'It can't really tell it's on though.' and I said 'Right. And that means it works correctly. It's not suppose to sound like 3 speakers instead of 2. That would be a center chan. that f'ed the soundstage up'.

It took about a week to really break in the Pannie's mods, but a lot of that was the power supply so that's the same for all channels already.
It's really just the wire and bybee filter and some other parts for the center chan. output that only had power going through 'em when Wayne took a day to burn it in before sending it back to me.

IWO... it matches the Alphas in a solid soundfield w/ DVD's, etc...

I'll take another test at it later using 3.1 chan. DPLII vs. 2 chan stereo, but I think I noticed some distortion when I did that last. Very sublte but when I came right up to the panels it was there and it's not there at all in 2-chan.

I've been weeding out variables and it seems like it's probably due to the DPLII.

It's on all the panels so all 6 are not bad while all 16 in my Alphas are fine.
It's not power handling 'cuz it's not anywhere even close to their limits.
It's not the x-over 'cuz Danny confirmed a pic of my x-over I sent him before I installed it.
I didn't have any of that little buzz/distortion during Return of the King and I played it Ref. level (it was just awesome).

So seems like it's the DPLII doing some fuzzy math or sumthin'.

[scooter]

Azryan,

When I have played quite a few movies and then listen to the system without a center I find that it lacks weight and depth at least on my system it does. It also gives the illusion of a solid wall of sound which I find is missing when not using a center speaker. It simply sounds more right to me in movies as a solid wall of sound, this is even more so if you have a large screen.

Like you say I think it will grow on you the more movies you play.

[azryan]

In my case I think it's a lot more sublte than that.

The main diff. is that the Centurion sharpens the center point of the front stage even when only a little bit off center.

[jacket_fan]

In my case I think it's a lot more sublte than that.

The main diff. is that the Centurion sharpens the center point of the front stage even when only a little bit off center.

I am still unsure about your critique of your Centurion.  No real excitement about it.  Do you think it is because of your bias towards not wanting a center or is the addition of the Centurion not up to your expectations?

In my very humble opinion and with my humble set-up, the center is crucial in defining the dialog in movies.  Granted, I am not running Alphas for the left and right, but a center brings out dialog, even in the sweet spot.

I am not much into multichannel music, but do enjoy movies.  Guess that is why I have been following your posts about the center and am interested in understanding your thoughts on the Centurion.

On a scale of 1-10, where would you rate the Centurion on a must have for movies?

[azryan]

Sorry, but I'm not really sure what you're asking that I haven't already commented about.

I think probably no one would build the Centurion unless they already had matching Alpha mains so any of those people could judge for themselves if they felt a phantom center was good enough for them in their specific rooms and seating set-ups, before looking into this design.

I just tried to state what it did in my system so people would have some idea of how it works being so radical a design.

As I said the Centurion does blend really seamlessly in my set-up and does make the center image even sharper when sitting off center.

I'm liking it for several reasons like dividing up the power to the front end and using the center chan. amp power I had not been using.

But I could live just fine without the speaker. Others might hear the diff. and feel they couldn't possibly live without it. I can only make up my own mind.

This may seem to you like I don't like it... because I'm not so excited about it. That's not at all the case.

I don't really back-flip or rave about much of anything.

I just try to say 'This thing does this, this, and that.' and answer follow-up questions about things I hadn't mentioned.

I don't think I can answer you 1-10 rating question, sorry. That's a question for each person to answer themselves.

I don't know what your system is made of, but you call it 'humble'.

If you had Alphas you would not have a humble system IMO and I think you'd be terribly impressed with it's center image.

I think you'd need this specific point of reference before you decided about if you 'needed' this center chan. to augment those Alphas.

This will not be the same as the need for a center chan. for any/all other speakers out there.

If you can position these speakers optimally or sit optimally or how many people listen to moves at your place are all things you've got to take into consideration for your own situation.

[jacket_fan]

Fair enough, appreciate all your feedback and hard work getting the Centurion going.