AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: ajzepp on 25 Dec 2020, 03:37 pm
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I love these little .7s so much that Ive been in upgrade mode lately. I added an NAD DAC/Music server, a Black Ice Audio F360 Preamp, and now I have a dilemma that is kind of weird...
A while back, my 15 y.o Butler Audio amp started acting up a bit. It wasnt a great time to replace it, so I bought an SDS-470 amp from Class D Audio as a temporary measure. It puts out 600wpc into 4ohm, and it was under $1000. The model one step below this amp took a beating on a couple audio of sites for some not-so-great measurements on the bench, so chsnces are this one doesnt measure much better. I happen to really like it, but given the other upgrades Ive made, its now the weak link in the system.
Has anyone ever been in the position where you felt like you probably SHOULD upgrade in order to best pair the rest of your rig with an amp that is a bit more on par, but youre generally happy with the performance currently?
I tend to keep my gear many years and am relatively immune from the perpetual "chase the dragon" upgrade bug. But part of me is wondering if im holding my system back by settling for an amp that is sub-par, even though I enjoy it.
Id be interested in hearing your experiences.
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Crisis of confidence. you like the amp and are happy with it. But... what do others think?
Definitely buy a fancy really expensive big audiophile brand amp :thumb: One that costs a much as a new car. Then you will need all the other electronics to go with it. Add another two new cars spent. then naturally your speakers will have to go. and another more expensive new car cost to the money pit/garage full you soon will have, then discover you are dissatisfied. But everyone you know who is an audiophile is oohing and ahhing your gear.
An alternative is the tell yourself you actually DO have the best amp around. And just are keeping it a secret.
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Mmmkay, thanks.
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If you enjoy it, keep it! :thumb:
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I have to agree with Elizabeth. I believe you when you say you're not usually an upgraditis victim, but you are now. You have an amp you really like, but have convinced yourself that it can't be good enough because it's too cheap. One of the finest inexpensive amps out there is the Adcom GFA 535II but no one thinks so because it can be had used for $100 or less. The only cure is do what JLM did and get an all in one unit, streamer, DAC, amp all in one, I believe his is a NAD, where there is no component upgrade path. The other option is embrace the illness and get a couple amps to compare, dealers and mail order outlets will always support home trial with minimal cost.
My experience? Put off buying a new DAC because the old, no, ancient, one was good enough. Until it fried itself, can't believe I waited this long, best upgrade in years.
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Saturn: Yeah, i think thats the practical way to go, im just trying to decide if Im leaving gains on the table so to speak given the other upgrades I made. I was just using a Schiit Saga preapmp and a $150 Topping DAC, with a usb output from my phone. So the two upgrades have really made a significant improvement with the Maggies.
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I have to agree with Elizabeth. I believe you when you say you're not usually an upgraditis victim, but you are now. You have an amp you really like, but have convinced yourself that it can't be good enough because it's too cheap. One of the finest inexpensive amps out there is the Adcom GFA 535II but no one thinks so because it can be had used for $100 or less. The only cure is do what JLM did and get an all in one unit, streamer, DAC, amp all in one, I believe his is a NAD, where there is no component upgrade path. The other option is embrace the illness and get a couple amps to compare, dealers and mail order outlets will always support home trial with minimal cost.
My experience? Put off buying a new DAC because the old, no, ancient, one was good enough. Until it fried itself, can't believe I waited this long, best upgrade in years.
Perhaps my post reads differently than my intent, but theres no illness and no upgrade-itis victimization going on. Its simply a line of thought and an effort to get other opinions.
Case in point: I know a guy who has $1800 Buchardt speakers, a Hegel preamp, and fancy cables. But he was running bluetooth as his source. He liked it just fine, but the comments on his youtube channel were all but begging him to add a cd quality source or streamer. Once he did, he realized the degree to which he was not taking advantage of his equipment. Thats the sort of thing im getting at with my post.
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If you like your amp keep it. But if you are curious then by all means upgrade. Buy an amp with a good return policy like AVA or from audio advisor. I own a Class D audio amp and it is just ok, mid-fi at best. I used a Parasound A21 with my maggies and thought it sounded great until I upgraded to a Pass Labs X250 amp and I was blown away by the improvement. Same goes for the AVA amps that I reviewed for Frank Van Alstine. They sounded way better than the Parasound and Class D amp.
You already upgraded the rest of your system so upgrading the amp to put all your gear on equal ground. Maggies really respond to upgrades. They will tell you the weak link in a system.
Larry
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Once this pandemic is behind us are there some audio stores you can hit?
For many years I was always in the x amount of power + y amount of distortion = z sound quality.
Boy, was I ever wrong!
One fine day I was thinking about guitar amplifiers and how the only ones I've ever had that were worth owning were tube amplifiers. All the solid state ones I tried just didn't quite do it for me.
So how come I've never had tube amplifiers with my stereos? I wonder if that would be worth doing? Maybe I should stop thinking about it and find out.
Turns out that was the missing ingredient.
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Get rid of the damn amp!!!!
You said two things:
1. I bought it as a temporary measure
2. it's now the weakest link in my system
You decided when you bought the amp that you were gonna replace it, so stop flip-flopping and follow through on what you promised yourself you would eventually do.
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Get rid of the damn amp!!!!
You said two things:
1. I bought it as a temporary measure
2. it's now the weakest link in my system
You decided when you bought the amp that you were gonna replace it, so stop flip-flopping and follow through on what you promised yourself you would eventually do.
LOL...well alright!
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Once this pandemic is behind us are there some audio stores you can hit?
For many years I was always in the x amount of power + y amount of distortion = z sound quality.
Boy, was I ever wrong!
One fine day I was thinking about guitar amplifiers and how the only ones I've ever had that were worth owning were tube amplifiers. All the solid state ones I tried just didn't quite do it for me.
So how come I've never had tube amplifiers with my stereos? I wonder if that would be worth doing? Maybe I should stop thinking about it and find out.
Turns out that was the missing ingredient.
Right on. Ultimately that will likely be the answer...just finding a way to get some auditions going
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If you like your amp keep it. But if you are curious then by all means upgrade. Buy an amp with a good return policy like AVA or from audio advisor. I own a Class D audio amp and it is just ok, mid-fi at best. I used a Parasound A21 with my maggies and thought it sounded great until I upgraded to a Pass Labs X250 amp and I was blown away by the improvement. Same goes for the AVA amps that I reviewed for Frank Van Alstine. They sounded way better than the Parasound and Class D amp.
You already upgraded the rest of your system so upgrading the amp to put all your gear on equal ground. Maggies really respond to upgrades. They will tell you the weak link in a system.
Larry
Thanks Larry. Seems like Pass Labs comes up often around these parts.
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That ClassD amp is small enough you can drag it along with you for an A/B demo if need be.
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That ClassD amp is small enough you can drag it along with you for an A/B demo if need be.
Thats one of the reasons I was looking at the bel Canto reference 600 monos. Or even the ref 500 stereo. Ive had a few discussions with people who paired them with Maggie and very happy. Wont break the bank, and I do tend to like tube or tube hybrid pres with class D amps. :scratch:
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Thats one of the reasons I was looking at the bel Canto reference 600 monos. Or even the ref 500 stereo. Ive had a few discussions with people who paired them with Maggie and very happy. Wont break the bank, and I do tend to like tube or tube hybrid pres with class D amps. :scratch:
Good choice on the Bel Canto amps. I have heard them paired with Maggies and an ARC tube preamp at my local dealer. The sound was sublime.
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Good choice on the Bel Canto amps. I have heard them paired with Maggies and an ARC tube preamp at my local dealer. The sound was sublime.
Very nice. They definitely appeal to me, so will keep a spot open on the short list. I think I misread your eadlier post: You have a class D amp, or you have an amp from Class D audio the company? Its interesting you also mentioned the A21. My local Maggie dealer said he really likes the upgraded A21+ with his 3.7s. Did you feel the Bel Canto you heard bested the A21? Or too much apples and oranges?
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I have a Class D Audio amp. The Canto's sound better than the A21. The A21+ is supposed to sound better than the A21.
Also consider PS Audio Stellar 700's. They are better than the A21.
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Yeah I’d say definitely upgrade.. high current amps for magnepan
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I have a Class D Audio amp. The Canto's sound better than the A21. The A21+ is supposed to sound better than the A21.
Also consider PS Audio Stellar 700's. They are better than the A21.
Those PS Audio monos look great!
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Yeah I’d say definitely upgrade.. high current amps for magnepan
Thats one thing that was easily proved true when I got this amp - that Maggies love current. Ive always felt the rep that Maggies arent dynamic was overblown, and once I gave them 600w to play with, it was even more clear. These little .7s are filling up a very open room with massive sound. So I can imagine a better quality high current amp will take things into the next level. Even my housemate, who really isnt into audio at all, loves to listen to them. What a great hobby this is.
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From our experience I could not agree more. Bring the juice.
charles
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Maggies are very dynamic. They need proper wpc and high current to make them sing. They don't play well with cheap amps for the most part. I feel that subs are needed to fill in the bottom end. Preferably, dual subs.
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Those PS Audio monos look great!
My son bought a pair of them to replace his A21. They sounded great but he had a ground loop issue with them that we could not resolve so he returned them.
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Maggies are very dynamic. They need proper wpc and high current to make them sing. They don't play well with cheap amps for the most part. I feel that subs are needed to fill in the bottom end. Preferably, dual subs.
I decided to go with a pair of Gold Note PA-10 monoblocks, 500wpc into 4ohm, class A/B (proprietary circuit). They should be here by the end of the week, so I'm pretty excited to give them a go. Reviews seem very solid, and I've always wanted to pair Maggie with some monoblocks.
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.
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I decided to go with a pair of Gold Note PA-10 monoblocks, 500wpc into 4ohm, class A/B (proprietary circuit). They should be here by the end of the week, so I'm pretty excited to give them a go. Reviews seem very solid, and I've always wanted to pair Maggie with some monoblocks.
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.
Wow, seems like an excellent choice. Been reading good things about the PA-10 for a few years now. I believe you’ll be very satisfied with them. Looking forward to your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
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Wow, seems like an excellent choice. Been reading good things about the PA-10 for a few years now. I believe you’ll be very satisfied with them. Looking forward to your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
Thanks Scott. A friend of mine is a high end audio dealer,and he knew of a demo pair that was for sale. By all accounts, they should be a great match for the Maggies. Fingers crossed.
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WHAT?
You didn't want to go with tube monoblocks that will shut your house down?
For shame...
Yeah, let us know what you think, please.
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WHAT?
You didn't want to go with tube monoblocks that will shut your house down?
For shame...
Yeah, let us know what you think, please.
lol, your email was very persuasive, but...
Definitely will :)
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I decided to go with a pair of Gold Note PA-10 monoblocks, 500wpc into 4ohm, class A/B (proprietary circuit).
Class A/D according to the Darko review.
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Class A/D according to the Darko review.
Yes indeed, thank you.
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So I just spent the last week trying to diagnose the strangest thing I've seen with my system to date: I took delivery on these really nice, built like a tank, Gold Note PA-10 monoblocks. This was a demo pair, so supposedly they were broken in already. I excitedly connected them to my preamp, started going through my usual demo material to get a feel for baseline performance, and...it sounded like absolute ass. Vocals sounded wonky, and there was a fair bit of distortion at certain parts of tracks. Not exactly a great start.
So I spent hours and hours not only giving them plenty of run time to break in further, just to say that I did it, and I also went through a methodical effort to isolate each and every point in the signal path just to make sure it wasn't something else. Part of that process involved running each monoblock individually in stereo mode, since they still have plenty of power to drive the Maggies. Oddly enough, they both sounded exactly the same, with the same weird sound and same distortion in the same parts of various tracks. I was truly perplexed. What are the chances that both of these amps developed the same issue from the time they were shipped until I hooked them up in my system? Probably pretty small, obviously.
So, to make a long story less long, for whatever reason, these amps just don't seem to pair well with Magnepans. I even made two recordings - one with the new amps, and one with the budget Class D amp I've been using for the past year or two. My regular amp sounded dynamic and clean, with zero audible distortion. This confirmed that it had to be the amps. The dealer had no idea, and I had no option other to return them. So they're in the process of being shipped back for a refund.
Next up will be my next choice - the Bel Canto 600m monoblocks. I know stereophile loves the pairing with the .7 Maggies, and there are several owners here on AC that suggested the Bel Cantos to me, as well. So I'm hoping this ends up being the right match.
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What about fixing the Butler? It's reputedly a decent amp with the power to drive your speakers.
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What about fixing the Butler? It's reputedly a decent amp with the power to drive your speakers.
Yes, I love that amp. Unfortunately it's now 15 years old, and it's been back to the mother ship 3x. That gets really expensive, and I've sort of lost faith in their ability to get the repair right. I think BK Butler is in semi-retirement (?), and so I'm often dealing with his assistant...just got to the point where it really felt like time to retire it. Also, when I hooked up the cheaper class D amp, which has double the wattage, it did seem like the Maggies responded to that. So I kind of want to stick with something higher current than the Butler, even though the Butler drives them well. I figured 15 years was a pretty good run.
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The 600m monos have arrived. Will have time this weekend to fire them up (prob tomorrow morning).
I give up trying to get it right side up.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220780)
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For what it's worth, I've been using a pair of PS Audio's M700 monoblocks with my .7s since September, and I love them. Superb detail without any etchiness in the highs, great tonal/timbral accuracy, and with 700 wpc into the Maggie's 4 ohm loads, tons of headroom that translates into a real ease in their sound. They're the most "real" sounding amps I've ever had. For reference, my history is GAS Son of Ampzilla with MG-1s, then a B&K ST-140 with MG-1s, then the B&K with .7s, then an Emo BasX A-300 with the .7s, and now the M700s. If that sounds like a lot, that process took from 1978 to 2020. :wink:
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For what it's worth, I've been using a pair of PS Audio's M700 monoblocks with my .7s since September, and I love them. Superb detail without any etchiness in the highs, great tonal/timbral accuracy, and with 700 wpc into the Maggie's 4 ohm loads, tons of headroom that translates into a real ease in their sound. They're the most "real" sounding amps I've ever had. For reference, my history is GAS Son of Ampzilla with MG-1s, then a B&K ST-140 with MG-1s, then the B&K with .7s, then an Emo BasX A-300 with the .7s, and now the M700s. If that sounds like a lot, that process took from 1978 to 2020. :wink:
That's funny, the B&K ST-140 was my very first "real" amp. I picked one up used back in the early 90s. One of Bobby Palkovich's (Merlin Audio) associates had started his own speaker company called Sterling Acoustics, and that was the amp I paired them with. Good times! I had several people recommend the PS Audio monoblocks, so I have no doubt those are fantastic, and that you're getting some killer sound from the .7s. These .7 Maggies are just magical. I mainly bought a pair because my housemate (and me to a degree) were kidn of tired of the 3.6s dominating the living room. I ended up actually liking the cohesive nature of the .7 better than the 3.6, even though I do miss that ribbon tweeter at times. Happy listening!