[Jon L]

I was simply reporting on what I fond during a listening session and how I would like the best of both worlds - which led me to investigate the Tranquility.

So let's see... The only person that's given you the idea that the future Tranquility DAC will have "best of both worlds" is who again? 

[bhobba]

So let's see... The only person that's given you the idea that the future Tranquility DAC will have "best of both worlds" is who again? 

So lets see - the only person who has given you the idea that there is an only person who has given me that idea is who again?   

I got it from a number of reviews I read which caused me to actually spend some dosh and phone Eric of DB Audio Labs from Australia to get a review sample.  I am still trying to decide if I should get the 16 bit version out or wait for the high res version which I have been told should be out about RMAF time in October.  I may even get both out.

In the mean time I have ordered a Mac Mini and will be moving from a Windows notebook to the Mini and Pure Music.  This is no easy task since I have my lossless music stored as APE - not Apple Lossless.  I will keep it stored on my main PC as APE but store it on the Mini in Apple Lossless.  This will be a real pain but discussions with Eric indicated the Mac has advantages over a notebook for computer audio.

Oh and Eric believes the 16 bit version is the one with the best of both worlds.  They are trying to get the high res version to sound at least as good as the 16 bit version before they release it - which is why it has taken them so long.

Thanks
Bill 

[bhobba]

Hi All

A trusted acquaintance popped around to Mike's last night to hear the WFS.  He thought it sounded awful and Mike thought it was a lot worse than when he heard it previously.  Something funny going on here - it probably needs some serious break-in time - but I would hold off getting one until this is sorted out.  I will be leaving it at Mikes to get that break-in and report on how it sounds as the break in proceeds.

Thanks
Bill

[Jon L]

So lets see - the only person who has given you the idea that there is an only person who has given me that idea is who again?   

I got it from a number of reviews I read..

Well, I got that idea from what YOU wrote:

"Without preempting what we will find out Eric says his DAC has the fluidity and musicality of the 1704's and near the bass and detail of the WFS.  The WFS still pips it in that area.  But to compensate he thinks the HF detail may be a bit better."

As far as reading a bunch of reviews... That's fine, and I do hope you find what you're looking for.  If I seem critical, that's because I believe the consumer has the right to know what is in a product he is paying for, and there is precious little substantive information coming forth from this company.  Very disappointing IMO.

[bhobba]

As far as reading a bunch of reviews... That's fine, and I do hope you find what you're looking for.  If I seem critical, that's because I believe the consumer has the right to know what is in a product he is paying for, and there is precious little substantive information coming forth from this company.  Very disappointing IMO.

I understand where you are coming from. However in recent times I have also come to understand the position of small companies.  Basically patents etc are useless and the only way they can protect their intellectual property is to not disclose the detail of what they do.  For example Mike Lenehan of Lenehan Audio recently discovered a tweak to his speakers that costs about $2.00 and 20 minutes time.  If he told what it was immediately there goes his edge.  He would not long survive.  I can well understand why they wont release detail.  Db Audio Labs does describe in general terms what they did eg they designed digital circuit paths to be as streamlined as possible.  They did not provide the exact detail of that - sure - but they spent a lot of time and money figuring it out so understandably don't want to disclose that.

Thanks
Bill

[Jon L]

They did not provide the exact detail of that - sure - but they spent a lot of time and money figuring it out so understandably don't want to disclose that.

Thanks
Bill

We don't even want "exact details."  Something very basic such as DAC chip used, USB chip used (is it asynchronous?), etc is the very minimum many of us want to know before paying our hard-earned money.  After all, it's not like there is a lack of USB DAC's to choose from out there these days..

At any rate, since this is a W4S DAC thread, I was curious enough to ask W4S about the somewhat unclear upsampling/oversampling situation with the ESS DAC chip.  I was pleasantly surprised that I got answers quickly and to my satisfaction:

"Yes, our dac uses the internal oversampling.  Basically, the unit will oversamples the signal to 386 times the rate of the data."

I then asked the following:

"Thanks for the reply.  Are you saying if I feed it 44.1kHz redbook data, it will oversample it 386x to 17022.6 kHz?

What if I'm feeding it 96kHz signal, does it oversample it 386x to 37056 kHz?"

The answer from W4S:

"Yes indeed... 44.1kHz will go to 17,022.6kHz, and you are correct about the other rate as well.  It is actually oversampling, instead of up-sampling.
 
Please let me know if there is anything else I can help with."

I, for one, am relieved to know there is no asynchronous upsampling going on in W4S DAC's!

[bhobba]

Hi All

Just returned from Mike's where we compared the Havana, the WFS and Mike's pcm1704.  The WFS had well over 200 hours on it - probably well over 240 since it had been continuously breaking-in for over 10 days.

First the Havana was soundly spanked - but it was half the price of my WFS and the 1704 was more expensive again.  There was not a single area the Havana was not beaten -  its bass was noticeably woolly and one note.  It did not have good control of sibilance and its sound-stage lacked height, width and depth.

It was between the 1704 and the WFS.  Sad to say there was only one area the 1704 did not equal or beat it - detail retrieval.  Of that the WFS was king.  Before I gave the bass to the WFS, but now it's broken in I say they are now about the same.  I think the bass tightness of the unbroken in ML1's made it seem better before since they cancelled each other out.  We did the testing this time on a pair of well broken in ML3's.  However for sound-stage, width, height and depth, the 1704 was clearly better.  Like last time the fluidity, liquidity and musicality went to the 1704.  The WFS had a slight sibilance control issue totally lacking in the 1704.  Interestingly this is exactly what Eric Hider of DB Audio predicted.  His view is, properly implemented, the old style DAC's are more than a match for the sigma deltas in all areas but detail retrieval.

The above was a judgement purely based on sound quality.  Sad to report the USB is next to useless.  I used J River and up-sampled all my music to 32 bit 192 khz.  It would not work - this is sad since it is a 32 bit dac.  OK changed the up-sampling to 24 bit - it worked - for about 2 seconds  - then crashed.  Looks like it has problems with high res stuff.  So I left everything is its original format and even disabled WAPSI.  That got it to work - of sorts.  It would crash every few songs and the whole machine needed to be rebooted.  The songs had balance problems - more sound came out of the right speaker for some reason.  I have no idea what caused that - there may even be something wrong with my source material that I will need to check.  I used J River to convert all my lossless to APE and that may be the cause of it.  I don't think so because I have listened to it a lot through headphones and never noticed any problems like that - but I wont put the blame on the WFS until I have totally ruled that out.  It may even have something to do with WAPSI being disabled or some setting deep in KMixer - again I will need to investigate.  Since I had planned to use the DAC as a USB dac and don't even have a coax or optical out, to me this renders the DAC just a very expensive paper weight.  Really great for a 2K piece of gear.  The WFS guys need to get this sorted out as a matter of urgency.

My gut feeling right now is I want to get rid of the DAC.  IMHO other DACs are better sonically - but then again they are more expensive.  Its sound is almost certainty at least that of a $2K dac, but as a USB computer audio device it is useless.  Since the Havana costs $1K there is zero doubt it is worth more than $1K - in fact considerably more I would say.  On sound quality terms the $2K is fair - good value in fact -  it probably is even worth a bit more.  But the USB is for me a deal breaker.  Products simply should not be sold with these driver problems.

Thanks
Bill

[Jon L]

The above was a judgement purely based on sound quality.  Sad to report the USB is next to useless.  I used J River and up-sampled all my music to 32 bit 192 khz.  It would not work - this is sad since it is a 32 bit dac.  OK changed the up-sampling to 24 bit - it worked - for about 2 seconds  ...

 But the USB is for me a deal breaker.  Products simply should not be sold with these driver problems.

Thanks
Bill

What you describe IMO is most likely due to issues related to your computer/software/settings/music files, and I don't see how you can blame it on "driver problems." 

Another thing.  Just because the Sabre DAC chip is "32 bits," that has nothing to do with it being able to play 32 bit music files.  It just has to do with internal digital processes having 32-bit architecture.  The fact you tried feeding the DAC music upsampled to 32 bit/192 doesn't make much sense. 

When you upsample, I would suggest you launch the task manager (ctrl-alt-del) and check the load on your processor and memory.  If you are hitting high numbers, that is likely the cause of your computer crashing.

If this is the case, playing 44.1kHz music without upsampling should not cause crashing, and playing native hi-res music (say from HD Tracks) should not cause crashing. 

Then there are hundreds of variables and settings involved with your computer audio stack and software, any one of which may be the culprit, including buffer time, latency, thread priority level, etc, etc. 

It might help to elucidate matters if you can list your computer chain, i.e. processor type and speed, total RAM, operating system, playback software settings, etc. 

[ted_b]

Jon L,
Thanks.  Was gonna say the same things; the 32 bit file test was the big flag in my mind.  Nothing anywhere stated that a 32 bit SabreDAC could play 32 bit files! 

Bill, is EJ aware of these issues?

[WYRED 4 SOUND]

Hi all,

Thank you Jon L. and ted_b for your help and support with issues like these.

I was forwarded to this discussion by another customer, and thought I would put a line or two in.  Please note that I'm extremely busy and would love to religiously attend these forums, but I would have no time left for anything else so I will do what I can here.

For clarification purposes, our DAC's do offer internal oversampling that is as Jon L noted and is a crucial part of the jitter elimination, and filtering operations.  The DAC, in theory should operate with 32 bit signals through the digital inputs.  The USB is limited to 24/192 as noted.  We haven't had the need other than curiosity to try higher bit testing but is something I will look into very soon.  Although, the use for this is not realistic for many at this time.

Bill, I'm very sorry about the troubles you are having.  If you would, please send me an email so I can better assist where needed.

I did hear of a customer having issues with Win7 last week that we were looking into.  The settings seem cause some dilemmas for certain functions.  We must remember that we are dealing with many different computers, operating systems, media players and plug-ins that all need to be configured properly for correct operation.  At this point, there isn't a universal answer that will solve each issue, but I'm doing my best to incorporate all that I can with what we now know. 

I will always help as quickly as I can with every inquiry I receive, and do value all feedback.  I completely understand how useless the DAC can be when not properly working, so it is very important to me that all customers are properly assisted in correcting any issues they may have.  Our DACs sound far too good (using any input) to have a small hiccup quickly lead to discouraged user.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Thank you. 

EJ Sarmento
ej@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

[bryan0101]

It's very very good to hear from the source that they're doing/will con't to do all they can to support their products.

Sarajan @ 6moons preview also mentioned some small hiccups at the startup, but overall works good. Haven't gotten around the sound though.

Now, going back to those "problems"...
"over/up sample into 32bit" the files? Um...that's just wrong.
Get some decent studio master 24/192 files as source first for comparison....like this one
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Linn-Records-24-bit-Comparision-2nd-free-Studio-Master-download-now
If you want to AB compare, then get the same song in 16/44 and do that. You don't do 16/44->24/192, because it'd sound the same in ideal situation (so in real life, it'd prob be worst).

AS EJ mentioned, the over sampling they do internally is diff than what you're doing to your files.

And what is "use J river to convert lossless to ape"?
What are you doing to your source man! do you mean wav->ape? You have to use Monkey audio for accuracy then.

If you mean flac->ape. Then that's just really really wrong. Flac is a free lossless standard, Linn and others are using it primarily. Theres no reason to convert that to APE. APE is out, they were used before flac to compress CD without loss. But now it's obsolete, they haven't update the software in ages.

And if you can, get a 32bit Windows 7 machine, install the W4S driver properly, and just use the foobar internal WASAPI out plugin. (BTW what is WAPSI u kept mentioning?!).

WASAPI is an Application Programming Interface (API), not a plugin, it's built-in by Microsoft, there is no "disabling".
If you meant ASIO, then please make sure itself is configured correctly before playing, as it's not always auto switching, especially when you're using asyn USB driver and stuff. I'd just avoid it.

Been using WASAPI, it's easy for apps to use.

If you need add'l info, software, pm me, would be glad to help.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Now I know why I haven't bother with computer audio as a source for my music.  I could NEVER figure out how to use it  .  Better for me to just press a button.

Bill, I hope you get this sorted out.

Regards

Rod

[bryan0101]

Definitely understand. And I'm sure alot of people feel the same.

But keep in mind, the current sound production even for LP is this:
(your favorite band)->(24/192 digital studio master)->(LP pressed gold master)->(your black LP)

CD of course is:
(your favorite band)->(24/192 digital studio master)->(16/44 CD press)

DVD-A and SACD are of course totally different (frankly I have not even heard them myself, 2-ch FTW!), but see the common trail here? 24/192 is the standard. And if it means it's a 2-3GB download so what.

Getting the 24/192 studio master is as good as you can get digitally.

As for LP, reason why a state of the art full analog system with a newly press LP can have higher dynamic range and just overall better than CD. I feel it's because we're not there yet with the 24/192 DA conversion proc, but we're marching on. And W4S and product like these should be the new standard: proven bit-perfect, jitter free input, high dynamic out.

On another note, so freakin want the 6moons review to be completed so I can order it.

[bhobba]

What you describe IMO is most likely due to issues related to your computer/software/settings/music files, and I don't see how you can blame it on "driver problems."

With all due respect my 30 years professional IT experience says otherwse.  I did not reach this conclusion lightly.  The drivers crashed - simple as that.  The drivers crashed not only in J Jiver running uder Windows 7 but in Itunes running under the mac os.  And that was playing back regular 44.1 16 bit - nothing fancy.  In fact when it crashed in Itunes the guy whose machine it crashed on did a dump verifying it was the driver and said he would send the dump to WFS - I dont know if he got around to it.  We were hopeful it would work under windows but didn't have a windows machine to check it out on.  It didn't work.

Another thing.  Just because the Sabre DAC chip is "32 bits," that has nothing to do with it being able to play 32 bit music files.  It just has to do with internal digital processes having 32-bit architecture.  The fact you tried feeding the DAC music upsampled to 32 bit/192 doesn't make much sense.

What - it doesn't make sense to think that a 32 bit DAC may be able to play back upsampled 32 bit?  Again with all due respect I think it does make sense.  It didn't work but that didnt worry me much - what worried me was that fact 24 bit did not work and what horrofied me was the fact 44.1 16 bit failed under both Windows 7 and the mac os.

When you upsample, I would suggest you launch the task manager (ctrl-alt-del) and check the load on your processor and memory.  If you are hitting high numbers, that is likely the cause of your computer crashing.

Done that - virtually no load.

If this is the case, playing 44.1kHz music without upsampling should not cause crashing, and playing native hi-res music (say from HD Tracks) should not cause crashing.

Correct it shouldn't - but it does on both windows and mac. 

Then there are hundreds of variables and settings involved with your computer audio stack and software, any one of which may be the culprit, including buffer time, latency, thread priority level, etc, etc.

Sure.  But the stanard windows drivers do not crash - you usually get some kind of error message.  They sometimes are rather cryptic but it does not crash and require the machine to be rebooted.  Oh and I verified that the balance issue does not occur on another DAC so it is related to the WFS. 

It might help to elucidate matters if you can list your computer chain, i.e. processor type and speed, total RAM, operating system, playback software settings, etc.

Sure.  But I would rather get into that with the WFS people rather than on a review thread.  I will be starting that off on Monday.  But rest assured it worked perfectly using the machines internal DAC under all up-sampling settings without the machine breaking a sweat.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Was gonna say the same things; the 32 bit file test was the big flag in my mind.  Nothing anywhere stated that a 32 bit SabreDAC could play 32 bit files!  Bill, is EJ aware of these issues?

Why are you guys worried about the 32 bit issue? I didn't make a big deal about it and I am not that worried about it.  I simply tried it because it was a 32 bit DAC.  Sure nothing said it would work - but nothing said it wouldn't either - so I thought its worth a shot.  What I don't understand is why you aren't concerned about regular 44.1 16 bit.  It works flawlessly with the standard drivers but fails with the WFS drivers. To me that is the important issue.

I will be contacting the WFS people Monday.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Theres no reason to convert that to APE. APE is out, they were used before flac to compress CD without loss. But now it's obsolete, they haven't update the software in ages.

There is also no reason not to covert to APE - it is about 5% more efficient which is why I use it.  I had some flac files and that had exactly the same problems.  It is supported by J River and that is good enough for me.  This is not an APE issue.  But seeing you bought it up personally I would prefer TAK - but J River does not support it.

And if you can, get a 32bit Windows 7 machine, install the W4S driver properly, and just use the foobar internal WASAPI out plugin. (BTW what is WAPSI u kept mentioning?!).

I think its pretty obvious I meant WASAPI.  I am scratching my head why you think that would help.  I can't do it anyway since I run 64 bit windows.  I use 4gb of ram so 64 bit allows me to make full use of it.

WASAPI is an Application Programming Interface (API), not a plugin, it's built-in by Microsoft, there is no "disabling". If you meant ASIO, then please make sure itself is configured correctly before playing, as it's not always auto switching, especially when you're using asyn USB driver and stuff. I'd just avoid it.

I am well aware what WASAPI is.  And J RIVER allows it to be enabled or disabled.

From my perspective the real issue is everything works fine with the standard driver and a dac that uses those standard drivers.  It fails with the WFS drivers.  I am typing this while listening to an Audio GD dac through standard Windows drivers with J River.  It sounds superb.  If I was to put in the WFS DAC and switch to its drivers it will fail.  To me that is the real problem.  APE, 32 bit, 64 bit, using foobar etc are really not germane to the issue from my perspective.  Sure they are some of the things I may try to sort it out but before deciding what to try I will contact the WFS people.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Bill, I'm very sorry about the troubles you are having.  If you would, please send me an email so I can better assist where needed.

Thank you for your kind offer and uderstaning of how this makes me feel.  I forked out 2K so, from my perspective I think some disapoiment is only to be expected.  I will be doing that Monday.

I completely understand how useless the DAC can be when not properly working, so it is very important to me that all customers are properly assisted in correcting any issues they may have.

Thank you for recognizing the real issue -  I have DAC that is useless.  It is appreciated.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Now I know why I haven't bother with computer audio as a source for my music.  I could NEVER figure out how to use it  .  Better for me to just press a button. Bill, I hope you get this sorted out.

When it does work it is very convenient and sound spectacular - besting the best transports.  It really is the future.  Right now I am listening using J River and an Audio GD DAC - it sounds superb.

Don't worry Rod it will be sorted out one way or another - eventually.

Thanks
Bill

[srb]

I think its pretty obvious I meant WASAPI.  I am scratching my head why you think that would help.  I can't do it anyway since I run 64 bit windows.

Bill,
 
On this side note, I have Vista 64 bit and I am using the WASAPI driver with Foobar2000 v1.0.  At least I think I am, as Foobar lets me select it.
 
Steve

[bhobba]

On this side note, I have Vista 64 bit and I am using the WASAPI driver with Foobar2000 v1.0.  At least I think I am, as Foobar lets me select it.

From what I remembered when I used foobar it creates new selections for each driver you have - except it has WASAPI after it.  It is really easy to switch between using it and not using it.  But J River is even easier - it is an option you select.  However this is not a WASAPI issue IMHO - it is a driver issue.  Sure many variables affect playback but from where I sit I am using a bog standard 44.1 16 bit setup of a common program - J RIVER - I should not be having these problems.  The standard drivers work flawlessly.  And this is not a Windows issue - the mac os had exactly the same problems - and it does not have WASAPI - that is a Windows thing.

Thanks
Bill