New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC

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bh46118

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #20 on: 10 Feb 2015, 04:15 pm »
I've been listening to my IDA-16 for almost a month now, and I am still beyond happy with the sound. When I think of digital audio, I think about terms like hard, synthetic, sterile, dry, unnatural, shrill, harsh, and in the not too distant past that was to a certain degree correct. The sonic signature of the IDA-16 is about as far opposite in nature from those descriptives as I could possibly imagine. It just plain sounds real, organic, clean, clear, transparent, or add whatever word you want to describe the sound of reality. If you have a descent pair of speakers that you are thinking of upgrading, I would suggest getting the IDA-16 first. My PSB Image B25s have risen to a level of quality with the IDA that is remarkable. Once you have the IDA, then you are in a position to go with any speaker you want, all the way up to any level. I think the IDA-16 is a game changer, and any notion that class D amps don't sound good is ABSOLUTELY laid to rest with this unit.

Bruce

KLH007

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #21 on: 17 Feb 2015, 07:30 am »

New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC

CLICK HERE for the link to the New Review (Jan 1 2015)



John, Is the amp section a direct digital type like the NAD 390DD or Core Kratos?

rustydoglim

Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #22 on: 18 Feb 2015, 08:25 pm »
John, Is the amp section a direct digital type like the NAD 390DD or Core Kratos?

No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.

KLH007

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #23 on: 18 Feb 2015, 08:50 pm »
No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.

Can you tell us if the output module is proprietary to NuPrime, or a modified Hypex/ICE? It seems your switching frequency is higher than most other Class D amps, is that what separates the IDA-16 from the pack? Power supply is SMPS? I see the DAC employed is the Sabre 9018, how is it implemented? I appreciate the volume control approach, not in the digital domain. So we can look forward to models above and below the IDA-16? Sorry to dig deep, but I am very interested in the product, it will solve many issues neatly and easily, eliminate cables, and it looks great as well.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2015, 11:43 pm by 007KLH »

KLH007

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #24 on: 19 Feb 2015, 01:15 am »
No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.

The DDA-100 was the type of direct digital product I thought the IDA-16 was, but I see the DDA-100 is like the Kratos & 390DD, and the IDA-16 is completely different. I read Steven Stone's review of the DDA-100 and he loved the sonics but only 50 watts, so NuPrime's experience with DD amplification is that it lends itself to lower output levels and does not scale up in power effectively? Is the IDA-16 the only NuPrime/NuForce product that uses it's 600mz switching regime?

John Casler

Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #25 on: 19 Feb 2015, 01:56 am »
Can you tell us if the output module is proprietary to NuPrime, or a modified Hypex/ICE? It seems your switching frequency is higher than most other Class D amps, is that what separates the IDA-16 from the pack? Power supply is SMPS? I see the DAC employed is the Sabre 9018, how is it implemented? I appreciate the volume control approach, not in the digital domain. So we can look forward to models above and below the IDA-16? Sorry to dig deep, but I am very interested in the product, it will solve many issues neatly and easily, eliminate cables, and it looks great as well.

I can't answer "all" your questions but a couple:

Yes the NuPRIME amps are totally proprietary.

No they are NOT the Hypex/ICE or other commercially available boards.

Only rustydoglim is able to comment on yet to be released models, but they are exciting.  :thumb:

bh46118

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #26 on: 19 Feb 2015, 01:59 pm »
I can tell you from first hand experience that the IDA-16 is a far better sounding unit than the DDA-100, a ton more resolving, while at the same time very soothing to the ears, and with a CD player as the source, I feel no need at the present time to go to hi-rez. There is more high end sound on a good example of the lowly CD than you might think when it is fed into the proper DAC and amp. On down the road I don't know if my next upgrade will be speakers or hi-rez, but with the IDA-16 I'm ready. A lot of hi end advertising is pure BS, but the NuPrime sound on the other hand is as good as what is being said about it in the positive reviews.

Bruce

The DDA-100 was the type of direct digital product I thought the IDA-16 was, but I see the DDA-100 is like the Kratos & 390DD, and the IDA-16 is completely different. I read Steven Stone's review of the DDA-100 and he loved the sonics but only 50 watts, so NuPrime's experience with DD amplification is that it lends itself to lower output levels and does not scale up in power effectively? Is the IDA-16 the only NuPrime/NuForce product that uses it's 600mz switching regime?

beowulf

Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #27 on: 21 Feb 2015, 11:01 am »
I see NuPrime's head quarters is located in Los Angeles, are the products including the IDA-16 made in L.A. as well or over seas somewhere like China, etc.?

Thanks!

bh46118

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #28 on: 21 Feb 2015, 05:20 pm »
Taiwan I believe.

Toka

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #29 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:17 pm »
No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.

Jason, would you mind expanding on why you don't feel the direct digital design works for higher power? I loved the DDA-100, and was thinking about an NAD C390DD, but of course these new products of yours are making me question my plans.  8)

Additionally, does the IDA-16 utilize an ADC for the analog input? I thought I read that it did somewhere but can't seem to find it again...if it does, what is the sample rate?

rustydoglim

Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #30 on: 22 Feb 2015, 09:29 pm »
Hi, I can only answer design related questions that are not "how is it implemented".
The direct digital design has its limitation due to the availability of the chip, and also when modulation and demodulation is done in the digital domain, it is harder to optimize for power.  When DDA-100 was designed, it achieved a great milestone in combination of sound quality, cost and design elegance. It is a very beautiful product. But NuPrime has since made significant breakthrough in not simply class-D amplifier design, but also switching power supply. This will become apparent in the next few months when you see a flood of new products. Therefore we are now able to come up with something much better and still cost less than $1K. 

Ref 20 power supply was the beginning of the renewed R&D effort.
Here's our product positioning:
Ref 20 (this will be the last product that is called NuForce, all future models will be called NuPrime) and other future products that carry the Reference name are the top of the line.
ST-10 and DAC-10H are one level above IDA-16.
And then what's coming in April are a whole line of < $1K products. 
You will find that the "home/desktop" series are seriously good. Basically we are raising the bar again for what is considered high-end. Today's $800 integrated amp can sound as good as a $5000 integrated ten years ago. We know that from the progress of every generation of products since 2005.
Well, the high-end home theater products should be shipping in May too.

I don't recall IDA-16 using ADC since it has resistor network preamp. It was the DDA that uses ADC.
Quote
Jason, would you mind expanding on why you don't feel the direct digital design works for higher power? I loved the DDA-100, and was thinking about an NAD C390DD, but of course these new products of yours are making me question my plans.  8)
You will really regret it if you don't wait another two months. That's all I can say.

Many high-end brands put Hypex or Icepower in a fancy box, add a linear power supply for differentiation.  Some others use off-the-shelf switching power supply.  High power, high quality, low noise switching power supply or class-D amp is very difficult to design. That's why there are only a handful of companies in the world doing that. I am quite sure we are the only high-end audio company that actually designs all our amplifier and power supply in-house. 

In our opinion, linear PSU is good for lower power design due to cost saving. High-end switching power supply can be made low noise, and it has the speed advantages at high power (obviously it becomes expensive).  There is no doubt anymore that our class-D amp can go head to head with any solid state or tube amp, and you can't tell that it is class-D.  One of you noticed that IDA-16 is switching at frequency much higher than other amps. That's right. It is extremely difficult to do. 600kHz switching freq gives you such extreme resolution that you are not able to tell that it is class-D amp.





KLH007

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #31 on: 23 Feb 2015, 12:16 am »
Since the IDA-16 uses an ES9018 Sabre DAC, and an analog resistor ladder volume control, I'll bet it does not have an ADC. I just re-read the SoundStage review and found this;  Because the IDA-16’s front end is inherently digital (the analog connection uses an A/D converter), conventional analog preamp circuitry is not needed. So according to Vince Hanada, the analog input gets an ADC.

rustydoglim

Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #32 on: 23 Feb 2015, 08:57 am »
Yes I remember reading that paragraph. I need to confirm with the engineer who is on vacation.
I forgot if I fed the wrong info to Soundstage or there is indeed an ADC for analog input.  I dealt with too many products (and brands) so I can't remember the details.

bh46118

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Re: New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
« Reply #33 on: 1 Mar 2015, 06:07 pm »
I have discovered something about the IDA-16 that is of particular significance IMO. In my listening room, the PSB Image B25 speakers I use have always sounded better placed very close to the rear wall, but with past class A amps there has been a bass boom problem that forced me to pull them out more than was ideal. The DDA-100 was much better in this regard, but the IDA-16 almost totally eliminates the boom issue. I don't know if the high damping factor of the amp is the reason for this, but it has made a huge difference for me in speaker placement options. If you have a problematic bass room and are using a single set of speakers, the IDA-16 might go a long way toward either solving, or greatly helping the issue.

Bruce