[Halcro]

I've finally had a chance to listen to the JVC Z1/SAS for the last 5 days.
I don't think that a stylus/cantilever assembly requires any 'break-in' so serious listening was done comparing the SAS stylus to the original JVC beryllium/Shibata (which is a beautifully polished square nude shank pressure-fitted diamond compared to the glued SAS into a boron/aluminium cantilever).
It was immediately obvious that the tonal characteristics of both styli were similar with the SAS extending the high frequencies quite considerably, with a transparency and delicacy which was appreciated.
As already mentioned by me and all the other listeners.....the bottom end and midrange of this cartridge is impressive.
The overall tonal presentation is much to my liking being similar to all my favourite cartridges like the Signet TK-7LCa and 7SU, the Garrott P77/SAS, the Shure V15TypeIII/SAS, the Fidelity Research FR7f/Lc, the ZYX UNIverse and the MIT 1 but the Z1/SAS may be better than other cartridges I've heard at 'deciphering' complex and/or badly recorded/mastered records.
As I've written previously elsewhere http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1236947666&openmine&zzHalcro&4&5#Halcro....I don't think there is much to be gained by listening to wonderfully recorded tracks of music one loves when comparing cartridges?
How many degrees of 'wonderful' can there be?
So the torture tests of 'Alabama' and 'Words' from Neil Young's "Harvest" were delivered with a clarity and understanding I had never previously heard.
So also for the climax in "Pines of Rome" whilst 'Wah Wah' by George Harrison was actually 'listenable' at volume. A rare occurrence indeed.....

The only faults with the Z1 that I could perceive at this early point is a lack of expansive soundstage width (not beyond the speakers) and a suspicion that its euphonic bass and midrange may well conceal the differences between recordings.... with a certain 'sameness' to the sounds of various recordings over long listening sessions...?

I have yet to change headshells and tonearms let alone turntables....
Time is on my side....

[dlaloum]

This weekend I was invited to have an experimental listen to a BenzMicro LPS ... the experiment was with an additional 1000pf, or 470pf, and either 2k2 or 47k ohm loadings.

The idea being to tame high end rise by putting enough C onto an MC....

On Annie Lennox a whiter shade of pale, the increasing C was immediately noticeable as a reduction in air/staging.... with the 1000pf it was most noticeable, with the 470pf it was mildly noticeable.

We also listened to a number of other recordings, ranging from Wagner to Dire straits, passing by Bob Marley... none of the other tracks played showed any impact to the high end, air or staging.

Andy who invited me for the listen, was also expecting changes in the lower register with varying R load - but the R load seemed to make no difference whatsoever...(regardless of album/track)

The recording quality and the pressing quality on that Annie Lennox LP is excellent, and it clearly has substantial "stuff" recorded there in the higher frequencies - so the variance in C loading showed up... this is my preliminary conclusion of the reason for what we heard.

I think there is something to be said for high C loadings on many current MC designs. I have also noted repeatedly that a number of current high end interconnects for turntables have capacitance that I would consider extreme in a traditional TT setup (600pf + !) - but given that their market is 99% MC - perhaps what they are really providing is stealth capacitance?

bye for now

David

P.S. If Andy can forward me some recorded test tracks, I will do a tech analysis of the difference as well....

[neobop]

Shunt capacitance on the input should create a low pass filter on the signal.  It's interesting that its affects were only noticed on the one record. 
I was thinking of trying large value capacitance to prevent high frequency ringing with my AHT stage, if I ever try another cart like the DL-S1 again, but that's not likely.  I may eventually get an ART7 or 50ANV.  They seem to be of superior design and they don't have the unusually high inductance/resistance of the Denon coreless models.
High impedance seems to be a Denon design feature.  I think the 103 is something like 30 ohms. 

Progress is slow but steady with the X1.  I've removed the tack from the top/rear and left it on near the stylus.  I'm not sure why the problem(s) with the Sony/X1 combo, but they're virtually gone.  The big bass didn't come back all the way.  Now it sounds slightly big - more like normal bass.  Maybe the tack near the stylus has something to do with that?  I was guessing the top/rear for that. 

High frequencies, cymbals and such are clear and tend to be a little forward in the mix.  As before, the X1 excels at presentation.  With small group jazz it's easy to differentiate each player in the ensemble even on records that previously seemed to bury someone, especially the bass player.  The only caveat is still a slight lack of harmonic content.  Not like before, but pianos can sound slightly hollow and missing a few strings. 
I might be able to work this out.  I'll see what removing the tack altogether does, if anything, and I plan on moving this set-up to the other room where it will be on another system including phono stage. 
neo

[neobop]

As I've written previously elsewhere http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1236947666&openmine&zzHalcro&4&5#Halcro....I don't think there is much to be gained by listening to wonderfully recorded tracks of music one loves when comparing cartridges?
How many degrees of 'wonderful' can there be?
So the torture tests of 'Alabama' and 'Words' from Neil Young's "Harvest" were delivered with a clarity and understanding I had never previously heard.
So also for the climax in "Pines of Rome" whilst 'Wah Wah' by George Harrison was actually 'listenable' at volume. A rare occurrence indeed.....

The only faults with the Z1 that I could perceive at this early point is a lack of expansive soundstage width (not beyond the speakers) and a suspicion that its euphonic bass and midrange may well conceal the differences between recordings.... with a certain 'sameness' to the sounds of various recordings over long listening sessions...?

Interesting approach, but when doing a comparison with only torturous recordings you're negating the ultimate performance.  It's an aspect worth investigating.  While making shit smell better is practical, I hope your evaluation is a little more expansive.  It's those great recordings which sound somewhat like live music and played with your best, that give you that basis of comparison for ultimate performance.

I tried to approach it as starting over with the HR100.  I removed the rest of the tack and rebalanced.  This is a very dynamic cart and like Halcro, a couple of previously unlistenable records were rendered listenable.  One screechy recording of Aaron Copeland was still screechy. 

I haven't tried the spherical stylus yet and so far results are much the same as before.  I think there is a trade-off, dynamics for some tonality.  This isn't noticed on many recordings, especially the unfamiliar. 
"a suspicion that its euphonic bass and midrange may well conceal the differences between recordings.... with a certain 'sameness' to the sounds of various recordings over long listening sessions...?"

A couple of small group jazz records were excellent.  I have a Tina Brooks reissue on Blue Note that was the best I've heard it - improved over a few other listens.  Somehow it was similar to a Marcus Roberts LP with Wynton, that should have been different.  Ever hear anyone use the descriptor "hi fi" ? 
Going back to Tete on SteepleChase, I think I nailed the VTA.  The cymbals and bass seemed right.  Results were similar as before only a little better until I got to a crescendo near the end when everyone was playing at the same time.  It kind of fell apart, got congested.  Maybe the needle was dirty.

Just as the first couple of tries didn't work out, I keep thinking something might be wrong.  The excellent results I'm getting with many records would suggest otherwise.  Maybe tomorrow the moon will be in a different phase or the vinyl gods will look more kindly on this endeavor.  This might be a great cart to have for problem records, and most others.
neo



 



   

[Halcro]

While making shit smell better is practical, I hope your evaluation is a little more expansive.  It's those great recordings which sound somewhat like live music and played with your best, that give you that basis of comparison for ultimate performance.

Yes....you know I was a "..little more expansive." 

This might be a great cart to have for problem records, and most others.

Just about sums it up....I think.

[neobop]

I wrote my previous post late last night.  While there are a couple of mistakes in syntax, and I think the trade-off might be stated backwards, I think you know what I meant.   Halcro's observation about a certain sameness to the sound, was a keen one and I think it's true. 

Don Griff stated (it might have been on Agon) that the cart sounds much the same with the spherical stylus.  I've been putting off that investigation until I had a better feel for the cart, but that should be interesting.  The implication is that fine detail is somewhat compromised with the stock stylus.  That should coincide with the trade-off and the strengths of the X1, rendering some previously unlistenable recordings, listenable.  On most recordings it's not readily apparent that some detail is absent and that makes the X1 a valuable addition to your stable, that is if you want to hear Stephen Stills singing off key and the overdubbed lead guitar on a couple of cuts on Neil Young's "Harvest" LP.  I can imagine the Z1 residing on one of the arms on Halcro's 3 armed bandito, being pressed into service more times that we'd care to admit.
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neo;

I am quite surprised at what lengths you have gone to define this gem.  Your use of the putty to damp resonances I found quite interesting.  JVC (Victor) took a different approach than what you tried.  The have a cartridge, the Victor U 1-E that is a Z-1 mounted in one of those integrated adjustable (for overhang), head shells.  What they have done is to bolt the stylus housing (with the use of 2 screws), to the cartridge body.  Your method was to damp resonances, and their method was to transfer these resonances.  From their approach I would assume that those resonances are an important factor in how this gem is to perform.
I'm happy to hear you and Halcro also find this cartridge a worthy contender!  Now as we patiently wait for David to test his??? 
Regards,
Don
 

[neobop]

Hi Don,
Thanks again for the opportunity to check out the X1.  It's a fascinating cart. 
The JVC cart with the stylus holder screws is like the Signet TK 9/10 and the AT 22 series.  They have a screw on the bottom securing the stylus holder.
This helps prevent any movement of the cantilever, other than in response to the groove.  Some people glue in a removable stylus for the same reason.

According to J. Carr, only a small percentage of the mechanical energy of the cantilever gets converted to electricity.  The rest goes into the body and hopefully, dissipated out the arm.  TOTL carts like Atlas, Anna and AT50ANV have specially constructed bodies made all or part of titanium, to address this.
A removable headshell presents an additional problem with energy possibly being reflected back to the cart.  Finding the right headshell/cart combination is another form of alchemy. 

When I first received the X1, I experienced a comedy of errors.  I had a Sony XL MC2 (20cu) on the Unitrac.  The spacing of the pins is very tight and the oversized clips barely fit.  I must have compromised a solder connection when I removed the cart, but it still made contact.  I was getting both channels with the JVC, but WTF ?  This couldn't be the cart you were raving about, but I was at a loss until I removed it.

The Sony arm is somewhat unique.  The bearings for vertical movement are just above the armtube.  The ones for horizontal movement are located beneath the plinth.  I'm not exactly sure of the mechanical implications, but carts of suitable compliance, and even some that aren't, often get good results.  I suspect the cheap lightweight headshell I was using didn't get along with the X1.  It's the same shell I was using for the 20SS.  That's what inspired the tack.  Its function up front was similar to the screw through a stylus holder.  Up higher it was to prevent any movement of the top relative to the body, and to damp vibrations. 

The Alaphson arm is a one piece titanium armtube with integral headshell and gimbal type bearings.  I suspect good results with the Unitrac if everything's functioning properly.  I guess Murphy and his damn law had it in for me.  Sometimes you have to hang in there and figure out what's up.
neo

[Halcro]

A postscript to the JVC Z1 cartridge.....
I swapped the cartridge to another metal headshell (because of cartridge's plastic carrier) and mounted it on the FR-64s arm around the Victor TT101 DD turntable....a more revealing playing unit.



The characteristics of the cartridge remained the same....but suddenly I decided to increase the loading to 60K Ohms.
Why I hadn't thought to have done this previously I don't know.. ...but what a difference..
All the euphonic colouration in the midrange and lower bass magically disappeared leaving the most crystal pure and delicious sounds enfolding my listening room. With a fair bit of added capacitance (200uF)..there are few cartridges which can extract this amount of detail and information whilst retaining the emotional content of the recorded sounds...
At this stage the Z1 is in my top 5 favourite cartridges...and it may rise....






 

[neobop]

A postscript to the JVC Z1 cartridge.....
I swapped the cartridge to another metal headshell (because of cartridge's plastic carrier) and mounted it on the FR-64s arm around the Victor TT101 DD turntable....a more revealing playing unit.

The characteristics of the cartridge remained the same....but suddenly I decided to increase the loading to 60K Ohms.
Why I hadn't thought to have done this previously I don't know.. ...but what a difference..
All the euphonic colouration in the midrange and lower bass magically disappeared leaving the most crystal pure and delicious sounds enfolding my listening room. With a fair bit of added capacitance (200uF)..there are few cartridges which can extract this amount of detail and information whilst retaining the emotional content of the recorded sounds...
At this stage the Z1 is in my top 5 favourite cartridges...and it may rise....

Halcro,
Most interesting, good thinking.  This is with the SAS ?

Added 200uF ?  This is a typo right?  Assuming you added 200pF, added to what? 

I'll have to see what I can do with the AHT.  I don't have the caps on hand, but maybe I won't need it without SAS ?  Think I'll put in an order with Newark.  Maybe I can have some parts in a couple of days. 
neo

[neobop]

Saw a post by Luckydog on Karma.  He says that wiring the channels of a stereo cart in series for mono, is superior to parallel.   Series gives you horizontal output only, where parallel just combines stereo channels.   So, with parallel connection you still get vertical noise and imperfect linearity between channels (separation/crosstalk) makes it fuzzy and unfocused. 

Other considerations might be inductance and resistance.  Cart inductance would double instead of halve.  Same for resistance.  This would tend to give a HF roll-off instead of rising high end.  You might have to change loading anyway.

There are some inexpensive mono carts out there that are said to yield good results - might be easier if you have removable headshell.  Halcro has the AT33 Mono (LOMC) and there's a less expensive AT MONO3 (HOMC), looks like for med mass arms.  Scott's DL102 is nice for heavier arms. 

Hadn't thought about this before.  Anybody have ideas how to wire 4 cart leads in series for mono? 
neo

[griffithds]

Halcro,
Most interesting, good thinking.  This is with the SAS ?

Added 200uF ?  This is a typo right?  Assuming you added 200pF, added to what? 

I'll have to see what I can do with the AHT.  I don't have the caps on hand, but maybe I won't need it without SAS ?  Think I'll put in an order with Newark.  Maybe I can have some parts in a couple of days. 
neo

Hello Neo:

I need to remind you that I would like to loan you my Z-1 SAS when you are ready.  Keep this in mind if you intend to order caps.
Regards,
Don

[Halcro]

Halcro,
Most interesting, good thinking.  This is with the SAS ?

Added 200uF ?  This is a typo right?  Assuming you added 200pF, added to what? 

I'll have to see what I can do with the AHT.  I don't have the caps on hand, but maybe I won't need it without SAS ?  Think I'll put in an order with Newark.  Maybe I can have some parts in a couple of days. 
neo

Sorry Neo...
Yes....200pF added via the phono stage to the existing capacitance of the cable (which is low Cardas Golden Ref).

[neobop]

Don,
No, I didn't realize that about the Z1.  I'd like to check out a couple more things with the X1 and I'll send it back to you.

No rush on this end.  I've been thinking of getting one of those little Vista stages - plug in resistors.  I can do that with the AHT, but the sockets are kind of delicate and I generally use it with LOMC's and keep the gain on high. 

I'll send a PM.
neo   

[neobop]

Halcro,
This is an interesting development.  I've been thinking about the X1 and instinctively, it would seem to be too bright with a higher value load resistance.

I don't know the capacitance of the Cardas, but with internal arm wire I guess somewhere around 125pF.  That would put the total around 325pF ? 

Back in the day (late '70s on) 225pF became kind of a default standard, so it's right in that ballpark.
neo

[Halcro]

Halcro,
This is an interesting development.  I've been thinking about the X1 and instinctively, it would seem to be too bright with a higher value load resistance.

I don't know the capacitance of the Cardas, but with internal arm wire I guess somewhere around 125pF.  That would put the total around 325pF ? 

Back in the day (late '70s on) 225pF became kind of a default standard, so it's right in that ballpark.
neo

That is interesting Neo...I didn't know that..
I think it appropriate to thank Griffithds for bringing this cartridge to our attention...and I will be most interested in your views on the Z1/SAS when you receive it...

[neobop]

I think it was on the Agon MM/MI thread, that Don said the X1 sounded virtually the same with a conical stylus !  At that point I assumed he couldn't hear too good, and wondered how that could even be possible. 
Thinking about it a bit, I never actually downgraded a more "advanced" tip for a conical (except once), but many of us experienced an upgrade to a slimmer profile stylus and the results seem indisputable.  How could the opposite not be obvious?
BTW, that one time was when Nandric (MM/MI thread) gave me an ATN3400 stylus he bought for the Virtuoso.  This is a bonded conical on a carbon fiber cantilever.  Lets just say it didn't work out.  Nice of him to go to the trouble, you never know till you try.

That's what I wanted to check out before I send the cart back.  I'm not quite through due to time restraints, but initial results seem a little strange.  Last night I put on an old Fathead Newman (septet) - a used promo LP.  With the stock stylus it sounds great.  That never lose the bass line presentation really bodes well for many albums and the rest seemed coherent, well placed and in proper proportion. 
Five stars.
Next up was the same Tete LP (still stock stylus) and it seemed even worse than before.  I had the feeling I should adjust arm height, but unsure of direction.  This requires a little more exploration.  I think I might be able to nail it, and I think I mentioned that I really need VTA OTF.  This is a tedious procedure with most arms and the HR100 is no exception.

The conical is some kind of Jico or Tonar replacement.  I noticed the plastic stylus holder fits loose.   The pipe that holds the cantilever seems to fit tight into the body receptacle, so I'm unsure of any consequences.  I didn't add any tack.  That would require rebalancing the arm and it was getting late.
Results seemed much the same as with the stock tip, maybe slightly worse.  This is in no way my final word on this experiment, so stay tuned.

On another note, I checked an email address I seldom use and found a sort of seasonal greeting from Raul.  Some people on the Agon thread might think we dislike each other, but that would be untrue.  Like the rest of us, Raul is human and sometimes humans disagree or find fault with each other.  I've said numerous times we owe a debt of gratitude to Raul for opening the eyes of the high end community. 
neo

[neobop]

Took a slight diversion from the X1 stylus comparison.  Tightening up the stylus holder is the only way I'll get an idea of ultimate (for lack of a better term) capability.  This is confusing.  One would think a small acoustic group with horns and a rhythm section (piano, bass, drums) would be as challenging, but not so.  These Steeple Chase recordings are very real sounding, and when you get it right it sounds almost live.  The harmonics of the piano plus Niels Pedersen on bass aren't easy to get right.  Tootie Heath on drums adds to the dynamic complexity, and altogether it tells you pretty much what a cartridge is about.

I reapplied tack up front on the body up against the plastic holder of the stock stylus, rebalanced, and got out a different Tete LP.  This one is called Tootie's Tempo.   The difference is astounding.  At that point I made no other changes to the set-up.  The rest of the time I tried to get it perfect, as it was good, but not great.  So far I haven't been able to get it to top level performance and this includes some arm height adjustment.

I wonder how much better the other albums would sound with the tack.  This was the first time I used it with this arm.  This is probably the only time I'll get to check out the X1 - they're rare, so I want to be exhaustive.  I've never experienced a cart quite like this.
neo

[Halcro]

I've never experienced a cart quite like this.

I agree Neo...
The more I listen the more fascinating it becomes   
The only problems I sometimes find are because of its extended low-frequency abilities...
More than any other cartridge I've experienced..the Z1/SAS either plumbs deeper into the 20Hz range...or has a frequency emphasis there...?
I imagine this would still be fine for most systems....but with my two Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers....it can be a bit too hard to handle on recordings from Moby or Massive Attack or Dead Can Dance...
Now I've heard these acts perform 'live'....and in a way the emphasised bass energy is realistic. I think perhaps my subs are just being overdriven despite their own individual 300W Class D amps....

[griffithds]

Hi Halcro,

I wasn't aware you were also a Dead Can Dance  fan, and a Vandersteen fan to boot!  We have more in common that we realize!  I also run Vandersteen's and use a Victor TT-81.

Regards,
Don