From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !

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jqp

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From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !
« on: 3 Jul 2010, 07:16 am »
From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !


I am finally close to acheiving my dream of tri-amping an extremely high quality system! I won't call it a "reference" setup, although it may come close in some areas when I am done.

I have had my nOrh system for over 8 years now: Marble 9.0s powered by Multiamps in bi-amp mode, with the ACA preamp delivering the sweet sounds from the tube-output CD-1 (a Cal Audio clone). So, that's 3 components and a pair of monitor speakers that can do 33Hz.

I did some real audiophile heavy lifting to get to this point! First the speakers weigh 80lbs. each, made out of marble boulders cut to a rough shape and  turned on a lathe to shape them like a Thai drum. This manufacruing process is extreme, and only about 25% of the marble makes it to the shape of a drum! Still in Thailand marble is relatively cheap, and it has been economically feasible to manufacture these speakers.



I built special stands for them in my listening area - cinderblocks on a furniture dolly, wrapped in cloth! I wanted them to be stable, and movable, at least initially.

I listened to my speakers with the passive crossovers for a while.

Another challenge along the way was the fracturing of a couple of the op-amp chips in the Multiamps, after I had moved them using the handles! The handles caused some flex in the case, which distorted the chips - when the amps were powered on, the chips fried. This was not a fun experience, complete with pops and some smoke, but after a call to nOrh, they assured me I had done nothing wrong, how the damage was caused, and we arranged to ship them back for repair.

Meanwhile I had to replace a blown Revelator woofer  :evil:

During this time without the nOrh amps, I used a Yamaha A/V receiver. Not nearly as nice as the Multiamps had been!

Once I got the Multiamps back from nOrh a few months later, after Curt Wishman had done a fantastic re-engineering job on them, I then took things to the next level - I rewired the Marble 9.0s for bi-amping with the Multiamps. THe Multiamps and the Marble 9.0s
were both designed for this capability and I had planned on doing this when I ordered them.

The Marble 9.0s use some fantastic drivers - Scanspeak Revelator 15W/8530-K00 woofers and Scannspeak Revelator 9900 tweeters. See here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=347.0 for a step-by-step of how I disconnected the crossovers and connected the woofer and tweeter to the 2 sets of binding posts.

Once they were rewired I had to carefully set the multiamps to function as vertical bi-amping crossover amps. This was not intuitive, but by carefully reading the manual as well as the back of the amp, I was able to get the settings right, and then adjusted the crossover point between woofer and tweeter.

After all these things were done, I ended up with a fantastic sounding system. During these years I spoke with a few other audiophiles who had Marble 9.0s and Multiamps, as well as with Michael Barnes of nOrh and Curt Wishman or IRD. I felt I was getting a lot out of this system and the synergy seemed to be in place. Curt, Tyson, and others told me that with subwoofers crossed over at the right point, I could really get the Revelator woofers to sing in the mid-range they were designed for.

The Marble 9.0s provide an amazing amount of bass when set up in my environment. I was able to understand the limits however, when I played certain CDs. I could tell there was more bass I was missing with some CDs, and one of them was the Telarc Organ Sampler. My measurements using a Radio Shack SPL meter also told me that I was not getting nearly as much as I could hope for.

I knew that to get to the point of adding subwoofers, I needed a few extra components. After bi-amping, I knew I would want to tri-amp with subwoofers. I also wanted a very high-quality tri-amping solution. My hope initially had been that IRD, headed by Curt Wishman, would develop their planned three-way electronic crossover. I had auditioned their Purist preamp, but did not want to make a move until the 3-way crossover was done. Unfortunately it was not to be - due to business circumstances, Curt had to put the project on hold indefinitely.

I had also heard of the Behringer DCX2496 in use as a tri-amping solution. My concern was that this unit was know to be often not of audiophile quality - there were noise issues, and the analog section was not up to standards that audiophiles strive for. These units were being modded to improve the quality of the solution, but I was not ready to go that direction, in addition to choosing an amp solution and subs that I would have to pay a nice sum for.

Finally circumstances worked out and I felt the time was right. I read Tyson's article about his quest for the next level, after having a heavily modded DCX unit in use with his latest speakers. He had obtainied a good deal on a DEQX HDP-3 Preamp Processor, which
gave him even more control and features than his special DCX. I saw my opportunity to pounce! Before Tyson could have a chance to put it up for sale, I asked him about his DCX. I had read a little bit about how it was mgalusha's "masterpiece" DCX modification, after experience with several other DCXs mods he had done, and I did a little research and talked with Tyson. This mod of the DCX focused on the DAC and the analog sections. I decided that this was the one to go for, and made a deal with Tyson. He shipped it to me, and I have just gotten it set up for the first time with my Multiamps, in what is now a horizontal bi-amping: each Multiamp is now in Stereo mode, controlling a left and right tweeter and a left and right woofer. The crossover points, which were handled by each Multiamp, are now handled by the DCX. So, what I have done at this point is to use the DCX for my electronic crossover (it will function as a 3-way XO) and now I am using my 2 multiamps in stereo mode. Each multiamp with be used in a horizontal bi-amping mode. Instead of a stereo amp powering 2 apeakers with passive crossovers, I have a Multiamp powering stereo tweeters, and stereo woofers. The signals are sent to the multiamps after the DCX has handled the crossover duties.

THe DCX has 3 inputs (L+R plus an SP/DIF in, as modded) and 6 output channels. Here is the chain, until I get my subs and sub amp:

CD-1 --> ACA preamp --> DCX 2496 --> Multiamp 1 --> tweeters
                                                  --> Multiamp 2 --> woofers

After listening tonight, I definitely need to dial down the tweeters since they are more efficient than the woofers. They sound great but are just too much at this outoput level compared to the woofers! This is what I had done on the Multiamps (they allow for that adjustment as well).
                                       

Another possible chain with the DCX is to do this:   

CD-1 -->  DCX 2496 --> Multiamp 1 --> tweeters
                            --> Multiamp 2 --> woofers

This uses the CD-1 as a transport, bypasses the tube output, and used the DCX's upgraded DAC. This is something I will explore next.


And here is the chain when I get my VMPS subs and Crown K2 amp:

CD-1 --> ACA preamp --> DCX 2496 --> Multiamp 1 --> tweeters | Marble
                                                  --> Multiamp 2 --> woofers  |  9.0s
                                                  --> Crown K2   --> VMPS subs


   

« Last Edit: 3 Jul 2010, 07:31 pm by jqp »

Tyson

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Re: From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jul 2010, 07:01 pm »
Sounds like you are well on your way!  I'd recommend using the following thread for more info on using the HOLM Impulse measurement software - this will let you really dial in the sound:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36100&highlight=holm

jqp

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Re: From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jul 2010, 07:17 pm »
Actually, the next thing I have adjusted is the output sent to my Scanspeak Revelator 99000 tweeters, which are 91 dB efficient. Since the Revelator 15W/8530-K00 woofers have 85.5 dB sensitivity, you want to adjust the tweeters output downward to match the woofers.

This is, of course, part of what speaker designers do when they create a passive crossover - not only do they have to split the signal at a crossover point, but they have to match the signal to the sensitivity if each driver, and of course tweeters are not going to be the same a s woofers.

The advantages of active, electronic crossovers are that you do not loose some of your amp's power to coils and caps, and you can usually do some significant adjusting of the crossover parameters.

With the Multiamps in active bi-amping mode, you pick a single crossover point and you can adjust up or down in certain increments. Then you adjust the output level of the tweeters with an attenuator knob to get a good output balance between woofer and tweeter.

The DCX give you lots of control over the parameters, and when you want to tri-amp, you will need lots of control. With the DCX, you choose upper and lower crossover points for each driver channel, and then you adjust the output up or down in 1 dB increments - much more control. As I said, currently I am just working with midrange and highs (midrange being lower than for many speakers). This is nice because I can learn the DCX in a more contrilled environment! Thanks to Tyson who has allowed me to call him several times over the last few days as I have purchased XLR cabling/adapters needed for the DCX and has provided tips and confirmation of some of my setup choices. And there are many setup choices. You have to read the manual for this thing (you can get it online) but once you do and step thought the menus, it starts to make sense.

One highlight of today's setup and tweaking is that I can make the individual output channel adjustments on the fly! Since these settings are in the digital domain in the DCX I can hear live the impacts of adjusting crossovers and output power to each driver! Very convenient!

There are lots of cables involved and with horizontal bi-amping going on, speaker cables have to stretch farther! Time for a complete overhaul of my rack situation!

jqp

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Re: From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jul 2010, 07:21 pm »
Sounds like you are well on your way!  I'd recommend using the following thread for more info on using the HOLM Impulse measurement software - this will let you really dial in the sound:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36100&highlight=holm

Thanks for that link - I will be using a calibrated mic that I got with Tysons DCX to adjust my driver outputs more accurately, using HomeImpluse software from HOLM Acoustics (free). There is even a 64-bit version  8)  Tyson wants me to do it NOW! This is really a lot to absorb and set up, so I'm afraid it may take a few days!

versus rider

Re: From Bi-Amping to Tri-Amping !
« Reply #4 on: 27 Aug 2010, 01:59 pm »
Hi all, have ben reading this with interest even though my system is open baffle, I intend to visit nOrh when I next go to Thailand as they are close by the wife's aunt, where we stay. I am currently using a CX2310, two way crossover but may later use a three way. Set up is alpha 15" woofers in open baffle with a Rotel 130w amp and 8" full range drivers of unknown make using bottlehead paramour 2A3 mono's crossed over at 100hz. I have decided to stop playing about with it for a while and settle down to actually listen to some music, but I'm sure in time will continue with the quest and add a pair of compression drivers and tractrix horns down to 3000hz which I suspect will help the 8" driver by reducing cone break up as it will have less to handle. At this stage the 2A3's will handle the compression drivers and my j sounds lab 300B will run the 8" drivers. Adjustable gain controls on the input and output will balance things and the volume control on my pre will oversea everything. The 8" drivers are so good that my mentor ( whom I purchased the drivers from ) insists I don't use passive crossovers on them as they are so transparent and natural sounding. But I feel they need a narrower frequency bandwidth to sound their best. Sorry if I have digressed from the topic.