[Ex JL Rep]

So I have this funky Alcove-shaped room and I want to put a home theater / stereo in. I'm looking for speaker placement/room setup advice. I have two pics of different speaker arrangements for the room that might work (please see below). It will be a 4.1 system with a LED TV and near-field sub. I'll add surround speakers later but I want to get the stereo pair right first, so the focus is on that.


Please note the speaker icons are not always pointing in the right direction, they are just to show the general location. And the black rectangle is a utility room.

All speaker cabinets will be custom built by me (kit speakers). I'm looking for good bang-for-the-buck, entry level hi end speakers. That should be overkill for the high res music I listen to these days. I'm thinking of something like the GR Research A/V 2, or Zaph ZA5.3t TMM 2.5-way tower built as a stand-mount, or the Zaph ZA5.5tt - MMTMM tower. I think those would better choices than two-way speakers? Looking for decent dynamic range and power handling capability. Other kit speaker suggestions welcomed.

The sub will probably be three 12" drivers Behind the couch/sectional (or 3 to 4 tens' or twelves, depending on what fits behind the sectional couch best). It will probably be built as a long table behind the couch. Height and orientation will depend on where the surround speakers will be and with an eye on reflections from the surrounds. Subwoofer xover will probably be around 100 hz. or so.

I'll be using separate surround preamp and separate amps for the satellites - probably something like 160 to 250 watts per channel (depends whether the speakers are 8 or 4 ohms). Or I might go as much as 360 watts for the stereo tower speakers.

Looking for some dynamics and power handling from the stereo speakers. Mostly so I don't have to clip the amp. I'm going to have to watch it with the volume control in regards to my hearing.

I'll use acoustic panels for the stereo speakers on side and back walls where needed. Perhaps even on the ceiling if needed.

I'll have an area rug between the front speakers and the couch/sectional.

If the speakers are MTM or mmtmm, I'll put them on stands so the tweeters are at ear level. If I end up with TWW 2.5's, I can put them on stands midway between the floor and ceiling and tilt them up so the lobe points to the ears. The ceiling is 8'3" high.


I can locate the speakers a few feet from back walls, and depending on where they are in the room, probably 1.5 or maybe even 3 or 4 feet from side walls as necessary. I'll be experimenting with placement from the walls and toe-in.

I welcome any feedback.

[Tyson]

I'd definitely put the speakers on the long wall (2nd pic).  I find for HT that a long narrow room is more difficult than a short/wide room.  I feel like having a close rear wall is better than having close side walls. 

[John Casler]

Yep, the second drawing would seem the far better choice.

[rollo]

I'd definitely put the speakers on the long wall (2nd pic).  I find for HT that a long narrow room is more difficult than a short/wide room.  I feel like having a close rear wall is better than having close side walls.

   Agree with Tyson and John long wall.


charles

[WGH]

I agree, the long wall is much better than tucking everything in the alcove but...

Since the system is going to be used for both stereo and home theater I really hate the idea of placing the speakers against the front wall. A 60" TV will place the speakers 7' wide and the seat is 7'-6" back, everything will be in your face. At that distance I would think the Zaph aluminum/titanium speakers will be screaming at you.

Something looks wrong with the behind the couch woofers. First you don't need 3 woofers in a room that small unless you are doing a swarm, and even then they are not lined up, put them in the corners where they belong, they will need a lot less power and sound better.

Second get the speakers away from the front wall, they will be less boomy along with natural sounding voices.

Both GR Research and Seleh Audio have excellent kits plus you will be able to work with Danny or Rick when you decide to build the center and surround speakers.

[JLM]

This space looks like a "fattened hallway".  Is it an often traveled path?  Can any of the doors be left closed?  Is the "L" shaped couch a given?

Agree with WGH, the three subs shouldn't be clumped together.  I have three 10 inch powered subs in a 13ft x 21ft room primarily to control in-room bass peaks/dips.  They are careful positioned near corners to work best and set at roughly 25% volume setting.  I'd stick to an 80 Hz crossover frequency to minimize perceiving image sourcing from the subs.  In this application going deep, not loud is the key when choosing subs, therefore recommend sealed subs.  Hard to beat Rythmik L12 or perhaps SVS SB1000, both of which are also relatively inexpensive and small.  Also highly suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition to learn about how rooms interact with speakers/subs. 

Agree that the 2nd layout seems the best and mains should be kept as far as practical from walls/corners.  I use a mid-field layout (80 inch equilateral triangle) for stereo listening with the speakers 3ft from side walls and 5 ft from front walls (everything is in Fibonacci ratios).  But for HT that won't work in your case.  I've found that small ported mains can be placed as close as 10 inches to the front wall without excessive bass reinforcement, however loss of image depth is another matter and speaker dependent. 

Your main speakers should be small designs to suit the space.  No need for MTM which mandate a very small sweet spot in close listening such as dictated by the size of your space.  Wanting to protect your hearing you should have no need for "big" power.  Picking higher efficiency speakers, say 90 dB/w/m or higher, you'll be able to avoid issues with dynamics or needing "big" power.  The Hsu CCB-8 would be an interesting option (94 dB/w/m, 8 ohms, coaxial/controlled directivity/ported design, $659/pair) for mains or center channel, although they may be a bit big for the given space.

[Hipper]

Just to be different, what about a diagonal approach?

Put one speaker about the middle of the 7' 10" wall, the other along 11' 7" section with that couch pushed back so the corner piece is at the corner of the black rectangle, bottom right. The TV would be in the top left corner.

At least that way you might get some sort of symmetry. With your two arrangements, that curved couch may well have a detrimental effect on the balance of the sound, depending how tall it is.

[Ex JL Rep]

Thank you guys for all your input. I am listening, it means a great deal to me.

Okay, the general consensus is, room layout number two is preferred. It makes sense to me to keep equal speaker distance from the side walls.

I plan on putting the front speakers at least two feet forward from the front walls.

This space looks like a "fattened hallway".

 
- yup. it's a funky room!

Is it an often traveled path?  Can any of the doors be left closed? 

 - this room is actually not used much, and it has too many doors, lol. Most of the doors can be closed, and / or kept closed.

Is the "L" shaped couch a given?

- no, it's just what I have now. I could get another couch.....but I'm only trying to optimize the sound for the back 2 or 3 seats of the couch? So I don't know if it matters?

I'm going to build all of the speakers / speaker enclosures myself. I like to know exactly what's going into the speakers and it saves money. I also like to do custom speaker tweaks myself, such as biwiring and bypass caps. Also, I'm going to try to implement some advanced damping in the satellite speaker cabinets, in an attempt to make them sound less like boxes, and more like electrostats or open baffle. This includes shock absorbers for the speaker cabinet walls. I'm going to attempt to get some benefits of electrosats without the drawbacks.

All speaker cabinets, including the sub, will be sealed. I like the sound of sealed cabinets. So I might need the bigger speakers/more drivers for midbass, and headroom.

A 60" TV will place the speakers 7' wide and the seat is 7'-6" back, everything will be in your face. At that distance I would think the Zaph aluminum/titanium speakers will be screaming at you.

 - hmm. I've thought about this. The TV size will be determined after speaker placement - I'm going to be moving speakers around a lot and listening to them before I buy a TV.... different spacing, different distances from the walls, and toe-in. I estimate the TV will be 43 to 60 inches.....probably more like 43 to 50 inches. I don't want eye fatigue from looking up and down a screen that is too big. I don't want a little Tv but not a monster either. A reasonable size TV.

 The front speakers being so close to me in this room does scare me a bit - will I get too much direct sound and not enough sound from the room? The Zaph designer claims the tower speaker can be used as close as 1.5 meters? What I might do is build MT or MTM speakers first and try them in the front.....if they are not enough I could make towers and use the smaller speakers for surround.

The subwoofers behind the couch are a near-field subwoofer. They will fire into the back of the couch. This is very different from conventional sub placement out in the room and in corners....... since the subs behind the couch are closer to you, you get more direct sound and less effects of interaction / standing waves from the room. Additionally, it's more efficient, and and less likely to cause rattles in the room and bother the neighbors. Also, besides SPL (sound), you get tactile response (and perhaps velocity?)

Near-field subs, like everything else, are not perfect.....they will only go down to about 27HZ (which is fine for music). And you need one behind each seat, in-line with the center channel for each listener - I'm trying to optimize the sound for at least tow to three seating positions on the rear portion of the couch for critical listening - I don't care if sound quality drops a little in other parts of the room. Finally, some people feel that tactile bass is unnatural.

At any rate, the subwoofer placement is set in stone. Bang for the buck, I've never heard anything better than a near-field subwoofer system. I won't go back to anything else. I will probably end up with three Dayton Audio RSS315HF-8 12" in a sealed box and a 500 watt plate amp. If I need more power I can add another plate amp.

Satellite speakers, placement of those, and acoustic treatments is what I need help with the most at this point. The whole rest of the system is open to recommendations.

I think I should put the speakers the same distance away from the walls. I can put the left speaker in front of the door if necessary (the door is rarely used and there are too many doors on this room).

I also have a shell wall on the rear wall. It's a wall plastered with real seashells. Maybe that will work as a diffuser? I'll take a picture of it later this week and post it.

Update: See updated pic below showing new proposed speaker / seating position and seashell wall (I took the black closet out and just illustrated the wall there, for simplicity):

[JLM]

Have fun DIYing but note that results will probably suffer versus what you can find "pre-manufactured" as you don't have the experience or resources of the big boys and can't audition prior.  Saving money is hard to do when those big boys use their buying power and economies of scale.  Be careful of the proud papa syndrome.

Speaker coherency is extremely important for mid-field listening.  Haven't heard a MTM or 3-way design pass that test.  In fact have had humorous experience with a MTM demonstration where heads were bobbing up and down trying to stay equal distance from the midrange drivers 12 feet away. 

Again, no need to worry about power or ultimate volume levels in a space this size, unless you go with very inefficient speakers (<85 dB/w/m) and tiny amps (<10 wpc), especially if you're concerned about hearing damage.

Seems like you like butt rattlers versus in-room subs.  Again recommend reading "Sound Reproduction" to learn how bass behaves in-room.  Don't assume DSP room correction can solve bass issues.  As Earl Geddes says, "Solve physical problems with physical solutions."

Sea shells will do nothing but make for possibly a more reflective surface.  Proper diffusion is based on providing random depth pockets, with the depth determining the effected frequency.  Commercial diffusors typical max out at 7 inches deep which translates being effective down to 1100 Hz.  Talk with GIK here at Audio Circle for advice. 

[poseidonsvoice]

...
Something looks wrong with the behind the couch woofers. First you don't need 3 woofers in a room that small unless you are doing a swarm, and even then they are not lined up, put them in the corners where they belong, they will need a lot less power and sound better.

Agree with WGH, the three subs shouldn't be clumped together.  I have three 10 inch powered subs ...

The subwoofers behind the couch are a near-field subwoofer. They will fire into the back of the couch. This is very different from conventional sub placement out in the room and in corners....... since the subs behind the couch are closer to you, you get more direct sound and less effects of interaction / standing waves from the room. Additionally, it's more efficient, and and less likely to cause rattles in the room and bother the neighbors. Also, besides SPL (sound), you get tactile response (and perhaps velocity?)

Near-field subs, like everything else, are not perfect.....they will only go down to about 27HZ (which is fine for music). And you need one behind each seat, in-line with the center channel for each listener - I'm trying to optimize the sound for at least tow to three seating positions on the rear portion of the couch for critical listening - I don't care if sound quality drops a little in other parts of the room. Finally, some people feel that tactile bass is unnatural.

At any rate, the subwoofer placement is set in stone. Bang for the buck, I've never heard anything better than a near-field subwoofer system. I won't go back to anything else. I will probably end up with three Dayton Audio RSS315HF-8 12" in a sealed box and a 500 watt plate amp. If I need more power I can add another plate amp.

WGH and JLM,

Having played with both swarms, near field setup subs, etc...I will say this. Depending on the goals of the client, a nearfield setup of subs can work amazingly well. They work amazingly well in situations where there is really only 1 set of listeners, like along a couch and if the mains have the ability to go into the midbass/upper bass rather well such that crossover points for the nearfield subs are kept low.

Case in example, several years back I had driven over to an enthusiasts setup who had a pair of Danley SH50's along with (3) 15 inch Rythmik subs placed behind a couch. The piston area is awesome so the drivers were literally loafing, but he also needed that many to raise the efficiency to get close to the Danley's. The Danley's go down to about 50-60Hz and with some clever use of REW, delays/phase manipulation, everything integrated very well and sounded extraordinarily clean. A swarm setup is ideal, yes, but it really lends itself to listeners in multiple areas of a room (a true HT setup) or for the ultimate 2ch enthusiast (i.e., ME).


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My only warning to the OP (Ex JL Rep) is that if the crossover points for the Dayton RSS subs (an excellent driver by the way) ends up being low (i.e. 50 or 60Hz), there may be the issue that the subs will not be able to address other room acoustical issues. Case in point, your main speakers will have to deal with SBIR (like ALL speakers, including open baffle) and also with the fact that the MODAL REGION of the room (above 50Hz but below the Schroeder frequency, i.e. 200Hz) and those ripples will not be adequately addressed without adequate room treatment (i.e. absorbers behind and around the main speakers) as well as flanking subwoofers next to the main speakers, at which point, you have just walked into the multisub regime.

With proper measurements, you don't have to worry about 'butt rattling' imho. IF you don't know how to use REW, get familiar with that first. Then you will UNDERSTAND your room and that is half the battle.

Finally, I would look into DIRAC and/or Acourate, etc...DSP manipulations to really hone this setup together, especially if room treatments (large thick but frequency limited absorbers) or additional subwoofers are not allowed in your setup. In fact, in my personal setup, I still have to use a wee bit of DSP/EQ and that is in a setup with a customized room, damping behind the double drywall, absorbers and multiple subs. DSP and EQ can definitely help and often is the icing on the cake especially for frequencies below 300 Hz.

Best,
Anand.

[Ex JL Rep]

Have fun DIYing but note that results will probably suffer versus what you can find "pre-manufactured" as you don't have the experience or resources of the big boys and can't audition prior.  Saving money is hard to do when those big boys use their buying power and economies of scale.  Be careful of the proud papa syndrome.

 - I actually do have some experience, I was in the consumer A/V business. I did work with JL Audio for a short time. But that was a long time ago. However, I'm not so egotistical to think I know everything. Plus, I forget stuff, lol. I know there are a lot of smart people out there, and I'm seeing them here. So all your ideas are welcomed and appreciated.

or for the ultimate 2ch enthusiast (i.e., ME).

- While I do consider myself an audiophile, my personal standards are probably a hair lower than yours. Thank goodness, the system I'm doing is going to cost me enough as it is, lol

Speaker coherency is extremely important for mid-field listening.  Haven't heard a MTM or 3-way design pass that test.  In fact have had humorous experience with a MTM demonstration where heads were bobbing up and down trying to stay equal distance from the midrange drivers 12 feet away. 

- Well, I've seen people do that with TM speakers also. The sound is going to change when you move your head no matter what you do (and when you raise or lower the volume control - surprise!). However, I know MTM speakers are not perfect, point taken. That's why I'm also considering TM and TMM speakers in some locations.

My only warning to the OP (Ex JL Rep) is that if the crossover points for the Dayton RSS subs (an excellent driver by the way) ends up being low (i.e. 50 or 60Hz), there may be the issue that the subs will not be able to address other room acoustical issues. Case in point, your main speakers will have to deal with SBIR (like ALL speakers, including open baffle) and also with the fact that the MODAL REGION of the room (above 50Hz but below the Schroeder frequency, i.e. 200Hz) and those ripples will not be adequately addressed without adequate room treatment (i.e. absorbers behind and around the main speakers) as well as flanking subwoofers next to the main speakers, at which point, you have just walked into the multisub regime.

The subwoofer xover will probably be around 80HZ to 110HZ. There are always trade-offs. A lower crossover point might give better sound quality, but takes a lot of work to integrate as you have alluded to. The higher crossover point should be easier to deal with on some fronts, and will help with efficiency, dynamics, and headroom.

(i.e. absorbers behind and around the main speakers)

 - That's the next thing I wanted to talk about, room treatments. Even though I can put the front speakers at least two feet out from the front walls......I was thinking whether I need or could use acoustic panels. In this latest, sensurround four floor plan pic I posted, the side walls are so far off I don't think they would be important there? I was thinking that the first place acoustic panels would be needed is behind the stereo speakers?  I have a couple of small ones here that I built that are not being used, and are not stuffed with insulation yet. They are 20" X 38". How big should they be, and what insulation should be used? I hear one inch foam on top and then 3.5" rockwool behind that is the hot ticket. What do you guys say?

[rollo]

  Hire or consult with an Acoustic Engineering firm Money very well spent. 

charles

[youngho]

Satellite speakers, placement of those, and acoustic treatments is what I need help with the most at this point. The whole rest of the system is open to recommendations.

I think I should put the speakers the same distance away from the walls. I can put the left speaker in front of the door if necessary (the door is rarely used and there are too many doors on this room).

Update: See updated pic below showing new proposed speaker / seating position and seashell wall (I took the black closet out and just illustrated the wall there, for simplicity):

I like this layout best.

For front speakers, consider this: https://sonicscoop.com/2017/12/14/the-1-speaker-placement-tip-speaker-manuals-get-completely-wrong/3/. It gets increasingly hard to get good absorption at lower frequencies. If you're amenable to some degree of equalization or room correction (like Dirac) below 400-1000 Hz, depending on the issue and type of speaker, that may help.

Looks like you could mount side surrounds on the walls directly to the sides of the sweet spot on the couch. you can probably get two addition channels on the shell wall, as well.

[Wind Chaser]

I'd definitely put the speakers on the long wall (2nd pic).  I find for HT that a long narrow room is more difficult than a short/wide room.  I feel like having a close rear wall is better than having close side walls.

That’s your best option, unless of course you have another bigger / better room?

[Ex JL Rep]

That’s your best option, unless of course you have another bigger / better room?

 - I've already got a system in a bedroom. This is the only other room I can dedicate to audio.......I'm running out of rooms!

 In thinking more about this room setup over the past few weeks, I think tower speakers would be overkill in this room, so I've decided I want to try just a receiver and stand-mount speakers. Besides the speakers I listed in post one, I'm now looking at the Parts Express Samba kit. It looks like a lot of speaker for the money - a 4-ohm speaker with a 6mm xmax midwoofer. I'm also thinking that with the multitude of 4-ohm and high Xmax drivers available today, other than for vertical dispersion requirements, MTM is old technology and obsolete for small rooms. Wow, That's quite a statement, lol

My new problem is the surround speakers - I want to put the surrounds against the back wall / shell wall, on stands.... it's kind of a walkway, I can't put them out into the room. That's not the greatest. I could put surrounds on the shell wall near the ceiling, but then I would need acoustic panels on the ceiling and perhaps behind the speakers.

As an alternative, I guess I could experiment with putting surrounds in front flanking the stereo speakers, like "surround wide" speakers. Decisions, decisions!

Thank you guys so much.