[Monad]

so I'm doing some remodel in the house and building an office/ listening area that will also have a memory foam mattress in it for multi-use.  i'm looking at 16x14 ish right now and starting to read about system placement.. possible it's going to have an Lshape w the office in the lower L, if that makes any sense..

honestly overwhelmed by the amount of data out there, and even more on here.  it's probably listed in one of the stickys and apologies if it should be more obvious but I'm not going to be able to do everything at once, unsure between the different directions which would be most important to manage first. 

There's one window bay that will be manageable and has blackout curtains doubled on a rod to start, hard synthetic tile floors on cement..

I started to look at GIK panels per one of the posts and know someone on here who just installed 4 in his listening space.. seems like a good first step.

the matress, (thick memory foam- king) will absorb quite a bit I'm guessing and it does already, (clap echo tested) but the walls aren't up yet and it's all in a larger area 40x 24 right now. but with 2 rooms on either end already built up.  fresh drywall on ceiling but no mud or texture yet.

I guess my question is-

what's the most important first step in a room like this?  I was considering 2 GIK panels, on front and back and letting the mattress in the recess handle that end ;D for now..

then i started reading about side wall reflection, bass traps.. etc. .. an overwhelming amt of information for the poorly informed, less than engineering types.

if anyone knows of a dumbed down, big button 1, 2, 3 get started reference for sound mgmt.. would be appreciated.

i just don't have the time to dive into the rabbit hole and even if I did, not sure how much I'd get out of it, since the math bits may as well be written in Sanskrit..

[G.Michael]

Hi Monad.  I've acoustically treated a few rooms, two in my own homes and two at a friend's place, and I am one of those guys who says it's usually the best audiophile investment you can make if you do it smartly. 

Since you mentioned GIK, I suggest you get their input.    In my dealings with them, they were superb.  (FWIW, I used GIK treatments in one of the installations I did, and a photo of my "art panels" is still on their website.)  Rest assured that they won't oversell you on treatments, and they have a good sense of priority. 

As for expertise, IMO you can become your own expert once you install a few panels, corner traps, etc.  When you get to actually hear the effects that corners (say, where two walls meet, and where three walls meet) have on room acoustics, and the effects of the acoustical treatments (absorption and diffraction), you'll soon have the experience to figure out where to install more treatments.   

It's useful (IME) to be able to hang treatments on walls (and in corners), and to listen to the effects so that you can optimize the placement.  As for the theory, here's primarily what I use: Corners are generally more problematic--they tend to act like megaphones--and though reflections from walls and ceilings are an issue, they're easier to treat.   And there's the issue of room boominess, and that's were bass traps are useful. 

But do get the input of the GIK guys first.

[WGH]

Stereophile has an excellent article regarding room treatments and reflected sound.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181652.msg1920026#msg1920026

[liv2teach11]

Hi Monad,
I noticed you said the walls weren't up yet. Something for consideration, I don't know your budget and time constraints, but I'll share my experience from constructing two media rooms from the studs out in two different homes.

1. The walls I did I pulled all the old insulation, installed acoustic insulation: like a rock wool or some form of it.
2. Then hung channel on the wall and ceiling and added double sheet rock with Green Glue in between layers. Actually, I had drywallers do this part.
3. The room had a concrete floor so I had memory foam pad and quality carpet installed.
4. I removed the back glass sliding door and had steel core French doors installed and put GIK panels on them. Did the same with the entrance door.
5. The one window at the front of the room I sealed with homemade bass panels and then hung a floor to ceiling acoustic drape across the whole front of the room.
6. In each corner I went with floor to ceiling bass traps. The two corners behind the curtain, I just used inexpensive foam traps. The two back visible corners I used the decorative traps from GIK.
7. I finished off the ceiling with easy installed decorative foam style panels that I painted...since the ceiling was already double sheetrock and Green Glue I figured it was enough.

The lessons I really took from both rooms was just how much this prep affects the acoustics. When friends come over and walk into the room they notice right away that their voices seem to change...there's no echo or reflection. I've also notice that I can play my music or movies at much lower volumes and get quality sound.

Anyway, just thought I'd share what I found helpful.

Best wishes on your project, Skip

[JLM]

Did my own room (audio in the front/office in the back) 17 years ago in a new house.  Followed room dimensions carefully: 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci Ratios).  Installed insulated staggered stud walls on interior partitions (even though they are both storage spaces).  Used flexible/lined/insulated ductwork and exterior fiberglass door with weather stripping, both very effective.  My downfall was using recessed can light fixtures.  Even with 12 inches of insulation above them I hear the washing machine, dryer, and footfalls (recommend wall sconces instead).  OTOH the room seemed spooky quiet the first few days inside.  All the insulation helps lower the background noise to improve dynamic range and lower the spl's.  Room is drywall with carpet/pad on concrete floor.  Overall cost was comparable to the rest of the home.

Added ten GIK 244 panels, which are barely effective, given the proper proportions of the room, but they are instantly effective elsewhere.  I see them as bandaids.  Also added 3 subwoofers to tame inherent bass peaks/dips as per Floyd Toole (highly recommend reading his "Sound Reproduction").  And tried a couple of room correction DSP softwares that I and my audio club didn't much care for (again probably due to proper room ratios).  So overall recommend sticking with known room shapes/proportions and insulation. 

[Monad]

awesome info and data points to consider on room size and first steps.  thank you.  after I posted, I found GIK has a room simulator that I'll use when i get my walls sorted.

i did buy enough 5/8 drywall to double the shared room walls (green glue) possibly ceiling and plan to use some form of wall insulation.  2 of the walls are poured concrete foundation.  The window bay is double paned and the only ceiling opening is for HVAC.. good suggestion about sealing it as much as possible.  I have a patchwork quilt idea for one of the walls.  I find the geometric designs/ colors soothing and I don't like colored paint in closed in rooms.  Possible I could back it with something to deliver added performance.

[JLM]

If possible eliminate the window (highly reflective and non-insulative).  If possible cover the concrete walls (highly reflective).

GIK is good stuff and have the data to back it up.

Mattress and quilts are acoustic unknowns (slap is hardly a scientific test).

Avoid simple ratios of room dimensional ratios (like 8ft tall and 16ft width).

Keep to rectangular (known shapes that has research done and are familiar to the modern ear).

[Monad]

current walls and ceilings are finished drywall or drywall.  I can't eliminate windows but treatments will be as covering as possible.  the floor will remail tile because I have a pack of wild dog animals.  i'm hoping they absorb some of the issues.

i pinged GIK in their 'phone a friend' option, outlined my basic (rectangular) bits and asked for a phased approach to sound mgmt with a sub $1000 price range that included ceiling treatments.

i think I'm going to use some kind of ceiling texture, not popcorn but still need to research more there.  any suggestions for that?  hoping to put the walls up tomorrow, heading to Menard's in a bit for rockwool (sound/ fire) insullation.  I'd like to use something more fancier but I don't want to $>.

For now I've been experimenting w makeshift treatments to see how basic embellishments can affect the sound and reading overviews like the ones posted above.

i'm ok with this being a work in progress..

I just changed from separates to an all in one Naim Uniti Nova for now.. getting back to basics but my first step will be to add tube amplification back into my system, at some near point.  i'm glad I had my mains separates set up in here before to hear in comparison (and be disappointed) so I didn't just have the Nova in system, as I'd be disappointed with the sound and borderline inconsolable.  the loss in detail, air and bass extension is palpable and emotionally damaging to my inner ear/ self ;D

[JLM]

Ceiling texture does nothing for acoustics (texture is too small to diffuse, material doesn't absorb any differently than drywall/plaster).  With tile floor I'd look into absorptive treatments on the ceiling. 

The Naim is quite nice as a temporary piece.  Have you done tubes before?  Rolling can drive you crazy (had a friend who rolled daily).  And they wear out/break, by wearing out I mean that their sound changes as they age.  Wish solid state had the palpability of tubes. 

Do you have loudspeakers in mind?  Ideally they should synergize with the room and power amp.  Have you thought about subwoofers?  Best location for generating bass is corners or mid-wall versus mids/high frequencies which is away from walls. 

[Monad]

Naim could be more of a permanent fixture.  it's really nice and the 80w AB seems to handle the Tannoy well but have other speakers I'll match to it soon.

Good info on ceiling texture, I'll be looking to add to the ceiling but going to knock down the big monsters first.

I've been running tube amps, preamps, DACs etc for years now.. have a BHK Preamp (love, likely keep), went through a wash of Quicksilver and other brand preamps, phono and monoblocks.  Still have the KT88 monos that are going to see the wizard, next week for a light hum from one.  Otherwise they're running nice but I'll probably do a mid-tier recap there and play them for a while until other things sort out or I find a buyer ;D. 

I'm considering a few different tube amps to put in front of the NAIM depending on speaker direction and new options that may come around soon. 

I'm enamored of Mr. Pig's Audio Mirror SET 45 monos but not sure if I want to stretch that far, in advance of other gear sales and possibly lower priced SET, SEP and class A options.  I have the Audio Mirror Tubadour II and IIISE DACs (selling both soon).  The IIISE is possibly the best DAC I've ever heard/ had in system.. so I'm hesitant to sell off but also don't want it sitting around collecting dust and storing all that 'other gear purchase' value.

Everything is in flux right now.. i'll be selling off a pile of gear, tubes and cables freed up by the NAIM addition that's replacing 5 boxes, power cords, interconnects and an assortment of speaker wires.

I recently picked up some DH Labs Q-10 that I like quite a bit and will be letting some other options go soon.

[Monad]

current speakers
Tannoy HPD 385 in berkeley (temporary home) cabs- MT Jantzen super xovers external

UREI 813 (604 8G + JBL 2226H) (custom mahog cabs) 36.30.25 need to sort xovers there recap or replace w similar time aligned.  I was using a DBX driverack PA with them but don't care for actives, all the extra cables, power signatures etc so .. either fixing or selling as is.

ESS AMT3- that are permanent as far as that goes, recapped/ surrounded by previous owner but deserving of a more eccentric recap, soon.  that HEIL is something special, imo.

KEF 105.4 recapped a few years back and should perform better in the smaller, new area but still too db needy.. i don't have an amp to power them properly now.  i really like them but they're on the block as well.

Considering:
Omega floorstanders
Tekton
4Pi- i can get locally

a 15" OB build using 2" live edge and Tannoy/ Altec drivers
cab build, onken/ stonehenge V etc.
possib

[or] something else unconsidered..

[Monad]

I saw mention of 'inexpensive foam traps' any suggestions there?  I'd like to do it right but I also don't want to spend too much right now, --> would like to be able to get some % 'there' for as little as possible' right now.

ok started watching some videos on DIY panels .. seems like I could cut my costs in half by doing a little work.  found some denim/ hemp 2" panels https://www.hempitecture.com/product-page/r7-insulation-bundle-pack that seem affordable.

[toocool4]

If you really want a company that knows what they are talking about try acoustic fields, no guessing they have you take measurements. www.acousticfields.com watch their vids.
Not cheap, but does it matter if it works.

[Monad]

Acoustic Fields looks pretty interesting but also a bit out of my $ range for now.. I went through the Room Analyzer and got right up to the 'how much do you have to spend' question and the lowest option was under $5,000, at which time I 'clicked out'.

I think I'll just buy or DIY some 2x4' panels, corner bass absorbers and plan to sort out ceiling solutions as time and understanding expands.

[Wayner]

First, if texture isn't important or a factor, why do many speaker manufacturers put texture around their tweeters?

Next, symmetry in the listening area is the number one fundamental rule. Lopsided rooms with windows and doors all over the place are very hard to overcome, especially if they force undesirable speaker placement (speakers not equal distance from front or side walls). While in most cases, the room simply can't be changed (moving windows, doors, shape), you might consider a different place within the room to place the speakers that offers a more symmetrical advantage. 

[Monad]

hey Wayner, yep I'm kind of going to be hosed there as far as symmetry, as it's a multi-use space..looking more like 18x12 w/ bed on one end and work desk/ or chairs in prime listening area.. when I'm not working the desk will collapse and be pushed to the side but other than that.. there's a partial wall halfway down that I can take advantage of but it's not going to be ideal. possible I could run long ways, once the walls are up but we'll have to see how it sorts out.. if I go that direction, it will also drive speaker amp choices, in a slightly different direction/

[liv2teach11]

Monad, you aren't hosed, you just have some challenges to overcome. All part of the fun and games of tweaking to get the best sound. Double sheetrock, use two different thicknesses (3/8 and 5/8) and Green glue is great start. That will take care of 80% of the work right there. Go with your homemade bass traps, the hemp wool looks like a great option. Put them in the corners. Play with speaker placement and where you're going to sit for optimum listening pleasure, and you've got 95% of the problem solved. After that just tweak as you go...there are a lot of different wall treatments you can get off Amazon and other places...foam, 3d wall panels, etc.

Have fun and realize the journey doesn't end until you do...

Skip

[FullRangeMan]

Building a room is a great opportunity to made things right.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107352.msg1183456#msg1183456

[JLM]

Can't buy absorption material from looks alone.  Foam is near zero effective.  Owens Corning 703 high density fiberglass is the best (check out the test results).  Get the shape/size of the room right first.  Insulate (completely including ductwork, door, and penetrations) next.  Treat as needed after setup and measuring the room via Dirac or similar software, don't assume you'll need treatment before trying out the room. 

[Monad]

good suggestions on the fiberglass for in the walls.. probably the easiest and cheapest

i received a response back from GIK, then several follow ups from James therein, who has been very helpful.  while I'd like to DIY, right now, with my huge projects list, I'd prefer to BUY.  Likely I'll go GIK, based on their good reputation and surprisingly responsive customer service.

I have a DBX driverack I can use for measuring, once I'm set up but I'll have to sort that out too as i'm a Luddite and barely know what I'm doing there.