AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 4 Nov 2019, 11:15 pm
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I'm putting a list together.... This is to summarize the advantages of Cherry amps versus tube amps (in general). There are many variations to tube amps just as there are with Class-D. In fact, Class-D is even more varied in implementation due to intricate circuits that are significantly more complex than tube amp circuits. I could go into the different kinds of tube amps (design variations), but let's keep things simple here on both sides. After all, we're not comparing tubes to just any Class-D. We're comparing tubes to Cherry Class-D, which doesn't suffer from many of the problems with generic or module based Class-D amps. So, the sound quality question is already answered, as you can read about in our reviews. The consensus is that there's no "penalty" to Cherry Amps with respect to tubes.
So, here's the first shot at the list of Cherry Amps' advantages over tube amps:
1. Lower noise
2. Increased reliability
3. Lower power consumption
4. Lower distortion
5. Higher bandwidth
6. Lower output impedance
7. End-to-end DC coupling
8. Higher power
I'd like to expand and re-order this list in order of significance. Any suggestions?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200492)
[photo of KING 2-CHerry amp]
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Interesting. I can tell you that your amps are on my shortlist for an upgrade in a year or two for driving a pair of the new Spatial M3 Sapphires.
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How about....
- none of the problems associated with heat that power tubes generate
- no replacement down the road of expensive power tubes
- no deterioration in sound down the road as the power tubes approach the end of their lives
In addition to the 'advantages' list...it is also really important for the target audience to know that Cherry amplifiers have many of the sonic advantages of tubes (see below) as well as the sonic advantages of solid stage (also see below) and that is what makes them so special.
Often stated sonic advantages of tubes:
1. soundstage realism, especially dimensionality
2. musicality, warmth and smoothness
Often stated sonic advantages of solid state:
1. power, dynamics, punch
2. clarity and detail
In other words....there are good sounding tube amplifiers....there are good sounding solid state amplifiers...but there aren't too many amplifiers that give you the best of both worlds like the Cherries do!!
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Here is a different perspective regarding the tube vs. SS debate:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes (https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes)
Personally, I have both tube and SS systems, and enjoy both. Each has it's own strengths and challenges.
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Freo 1
That was an interesting article and I think it points out a lot of good reasons why tube gear is still around and beloved by so many people.
In some respects, amplifiers are like ice cream....lots of flavors and even though you like chocolate most days, you may wake up and prefer butterscotch today. In other words, there is no best....there are only preferences...and those can change over time.
There are plenty of people that love their tube gear or love their solid state gear and have no plans to ever switch. No doubt there are also people with tube gear that love it but would switch to solid state if they heard the right gear....and there are people with solid state gear that would love to try tube gear but it just doesn't work for them....maybe the heat...maybe the height...who knows.
My take on the Cherry amplifiers (I own the 2Cherry) is that they really do have a voicing/sonic signature that incorporates many of the desirable aspects of both tubes and solid state. In that respect, they are a great choice for someone owning tubes that would like to try solid state but not lose the tube sound they appreciate....and they are a great choice for solid state owners that would really like to incorporate some of the tube sound without losing what they love about their solid state amp.
As I noted in my first post (above), one of the big surprises to me was the level of clarity that the 2Cherry provided (without any harshness) compared to the solid state amp I was using at the time. In this respect, I'd say that the Cherry amps should be on the short list for auditioning for solid state owners just looking to improve their overall sense of realism.
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Good analogy.
I find many of the aspects tied to the Cherry amp also present with the Devialet Expert series. The clarity and dynamics with the Devialet are simply astounding.
Still, I occasionally switch out the Devialet to listen to a custom tube setup, and find both systems immensely enjoyable. As pointed out, it's a different flavor between tube and SS.
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Here is a different perspective regarding the tube vs. SS debate:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes (https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes)
Personally, I have both tube and SS systems, and enjoy both. Each has it's own strengths and challenges.
Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes! Super biased point of view there, and some serious misinformation to boot, like the “Until recently, the high-end market belonged almost entirely to solid-state equipment”. That never happened.
There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.
One thing that wasn’t really covered was the nostalgia effect. That’s covered here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152357.0
The use of tubes in musical instrument devices is a totally different story. This use doesn’t rely on faithful reproduction but rather the creation of certain sounds. As a musician, I can totally understand that part of the equation.
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Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes! Super biased point of view there, and some serious misinformation to boot, like the “Until recently, the high-end market belonged almost entirely to solid-state equipment”. That never happened.
There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.
One thing that wasn’t really covered was the nostalgia effect. That’s covered here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152357.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152357.0)
The use of tubes in musical instrument devices is a totally different story. This use doesn’t rely on faithful reproduction but rather the creation of certain sounds. As a musician, I can totally understand that part of the equation.
Keep in mind that this article was written quite some time ago. At the time of this writing, Krell, Mark Levinson, and Threshold were the big players in the high end game.
I found the section explaining distortion under test very interesting. Turns out tubes are not so bad when applying a signal for gain.
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Cherry amplifier circuitry is very different than that of other Class-D amplifiers. People tend to group amps into their general circuit topology, but there’s much more to this behind the scenes, such as the modulation circuits, which vary wildly among Class-D amps. Another area is the feedback circuitry, which varies from the classic Class-AB simple feedback networks to the messy circuits of the “great on the bench, but not on the ears” amps of recent years. Ironically, many Class-AB amps back in the 80s had the same issues. My point is that generalizing amps sonically by output stage topology (Class-whatever) is like saying all red cars perform the same.
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is like saying all red cars perform the same.
They don’t?? :scratch:
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I don't know that tube vs solid state is the right question. I would ask it this way:
Switching to "Digital Amplifier Company" -- benefits:
1. etc
I have not tried your amps but it is clear from your circle that your product is unique. There are many, many class D amps, but only one Digital Amplifier Company right?
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Thanks for the link, but the author sells tubes! Super biased point of view there, ....
Hey!
Isn't that what you are doing on this post about your own class-D amps here also?
...
There’s no joke in that the tube guys fear new technology like motor heads fear Tesla.
.....
Yes, I've been using tube for a little over half of my life and no, I don't have fear of new technology. Is just that I have not found any SS or class-D amps that I liked enough for me to considering it to replace my current SET amps so far.
But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!? You might have the best amp in the world! Or not.
Well, the beauty of sound reproduction is in the ears of the beholder.
Buddy
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But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!?
I know this much, these amps are far better than all of the SET amps I have tried over the years.
Buddy, I dare you to try a Maraschino. I bet it will blow your mind. It will mark a turning point in your audio journey. :wink:
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My son is really into guitars....electric, bass, acoustic and amplified acoustic. Over the years he has owned a ton of equipment...both solid state and tube to play his guitars. His absolute strong preference is for his tube gear...and he fully admits that it is because his tube gear distorts in a way that (sounds) better to his ears.
My take on this for home audio is not about tube distortion...but about how tube gear often has more synergy with less than perfect rooms resulting in a more enjoyable sound...less top end harshness...more dimensional...etc.
I'm not sure how tommy has done it but he has managed to capture the essence of tubes along with some of the strengths of some of the better solid state amps. I don't see this as a "battle of the specs" or a my amp is better than your amp kind of thing. Tommy's amps sound great and will appeal to a lot of people who own tube amps and a lot of people who own solid state amps
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Hey!
Isn't that what you are doing on this post about your own class-D amps here also?
Yes, I've been using tube for a little over half of my life and no, I don't have fear of new technology. Is just that I have not found any SS or class-D amps that I liked enough for me to considering it to replace my current SET amps so far.
But to be fair. I have not heard your amps. So, I can't say if yours is good or not. Who knows!? You might have the best amp in the world! Or not.
Well, the beauty of sound reproduction is in the ears of the beholder.
Buddy
:thumb:
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So what cables do you guys use?
:wink:
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Cables Currently In Use:
Power Cables - player, preamp, subwoofer are Pangea cords as for the power amp...tried Pangea, Shunyata, and various stock....using the stock cord
Connecting Cables - using Blue Jeans Cables...their LC1 cable
Speaker cables (from the 2Cherry to Salk Veracity ST loudspeakers) are home made....here are the specs on the wiring...
four conductor 14 awg per conductor, foil shielded, 63 individual strands of 99.99% oxygen free copper per conductor, cross connected to create 11 gage to each speaker...using sewell banana plugs
Just my own observation over the years....moving my speakers 6-12" has always made more difference than changing cables...and with the thousands of cables out there, its impossible to try them all.
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Cables Currently In Use:
Power Cables - player, preamp, subwoofer are Pangea cords as for the power amp...tried Pangea, Shunyata, and various stock....using the stock cord
Connecting Cables - using Blue Jeans Cables...their LC1 cable
Speaker cables (from the 2Cherry to Salk Veracity ST loudspeakers) are home made....here are the specs on the wiring...
four conductor 14 awg per conductor, foil shielded, 63 individual strands of 99.99% oxygen free copper per conductor, cross connected to create 11 gage to each speaker...using sewell banana plugs
Just my own observation over the years....moving my speakers 6-12" has always made more difference than changing cables...and with the thousands of cables out there, its impossible to try them all.
Do you mean moving speakers away from the wall, together , apart??
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Honestly... I’d say every move has the potential to change the sound... including angling in out up down and moving further apart and together.. as well moving out from walls. For some speakers, the tweaking can result in big changes... for others not so much... the room usually matters a lot as part of the final tuning.
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Honestly... I’d say every move has the potential to change the sound... including angling in out up down and moving further apart and together.. as well moving out from walls. For some speakers, the tweaking can result in big changes... for others not so much... the room usually matters a lot as part of the final tuning.
It definitely makes a huge difference with Magnepan 1.7i speakers, especially the distance from the back wall.
I use REW and a calibrated mic to get an idea of the results, and moving the listening position usually makes as much of a difference (or more) as moving the speakers.
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I know this much, these amps are far better than all of the SET amps I have tried over the years.
Buddy, I dare you to try a Maraschino. I bet it will blow your mind. It will mark a turning point in your audio journey. :wink:
Hey!
I see, is Maraschino the amp you are using regularly in your system right now?
My audio journey is pretty done. I've heard so many systems over the years, both in stores, shows and in some of AC members home. And I've tried a few audio pieces from local members here who were kind enough to loan them to me to try. Well, at the end of the day, I have no problem coming home to my system. Yes, I've heard some systems that better than my system, but not in every way. I know there are flaws in my system but those flaws doesn't bother me, the strengths of my system out weighted the flaws to me.
But sure! If someone in here NYC area have Marachino and kind enough to loan it to me to try for a few days. I will give it a shot, if I like it than I might have to get one. If not then well... I don't know back to enjoy music on my old system I guess.
Buddy
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Last night I was at a concert...not quite an orchestra...mostly brass woodwinds, percussion, piano, stand up bass...about 100 pieces in all. My seats were about 20 rows back, center and at about stage level. The music was an amalgamation of classics including Harlem Nocturne, Anchors Aweigh, Malaguena, and Seventy-Six Trombones...to name a few.
The sound was really good, which led me to trying to describe what I was hearing...the words that really seemed to fit were...."clarity, power, dynamic, captivating, and this is kind of strange...perfect tone...instruments sounded right". Never once would I have used or even thought of words like "harsh, soundstage, definition, accuracy, euphonic, and frequency response".
Let's face it, it is really hard to reproduce the live music sound in our homes. Usually, the room screws with the sound and after trying multiple speakers, multiple locations, room treatments, and different electronics...we maybe find something that sounds good....to us...but it is usually not the same as live music....but it is probably enjoyable none the less.
I'm fortunate...I have a pretty good room which makes the speaker part of the equation a little easier. It wasn't until I put the 2Cherry in my system that I began to realize how important clarity, tonal accuracy and powerful dynamics were actually producing a more lifelike sound....and in my case, a more lifelike sound with clarity and tone is more enjoyable than anything I have achieved to date.
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Hey!
I see, is Maraschino the amp you are using regularly in your system right now?
Yes indeed! After a series of SET amps EL34, EL84, KT88, 2A3, 300b etc the Maraschino’s (small mono blocks) are the only amps I use in my system. :D :D I get all the SET benefits and goodness without any of the SET setbacks. :thumb:
I’ve been using these amps - exclusively - for over two years now and I have zero interest in returning to tube amplification. :green:
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Yes indeed! After a series of SET amps EL34, EL84, KT88, 2A3, 300b etc the Maraschino’s (small mono blocks) are the only amps I use in my system. :D :D I get all the SET benefits and goodness without any of the SET setbacks. :thumb:
I’ve been using these amps - exclusively - for over two years now and I have zero interest in returning to tube amplification. :green:
Hey!
Well, good for you and congratulation.
Buddy
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Thank you, Buddy. I hope someday your ears get a taste of 21 century technology. What the iPhone is to a rotary phone, the Maraschino is to tubes. :wink:
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Thank you, Buddy. I hope someday your ears get a taste of 21 century technology. What the iPhone is to a rotary phone, the Maraschino is to tubes. :wink:
Hey!
I have some, but just didn't work out. I'll go back to my old early 20th Century techs system for now. Again congratulation on your system. And I will now leave this thread for good.
Buddy
PS
I don't have rotary phone but I do have a 1902 Victor Type E Talking Machine, it is a beauty. It is a hoot to listen to acoustical recording 78 of Enrico Caruso's "La donna e mobile" from 1908 on it.
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Couple of thoughts:
1) I have had much the same type of revelation using Devialet Expert amps as reported with the Cherry amps. The fact that the DAC is integrated into the amp is part of the reason for this success. If one owns a speaker supported by speaker active matching, further improvement ca also be realized.
2) Regarding speakers, the speaker types optimized for tube playback can wind up sounding "better" with tube amplification than any SS amp. Granted, with the vast majority of speakers, the extra power provided by the SS amp will improve playback, but not always.
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I don't know that tube vs solid state is the right question. I would ask it this way:
Switching to "Digital Amplifier Company" -- benefits:
1. etc
I have not tried your amps but it is clear from your circle that your product is unique. There are many, many class D amps, but only one Digital Amplifier Company right?
You are correct, only one Digital Amp Co, but Cherry Amplifier® is our brand, so we edited the list title to this:
Cherry Amps' advantages over tube amps
Thank for the tip and kind words.
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Here's a comparison of the distortion (actually THD+N) at 10Wpc output from an RM-10 MK ii (a 35Wpc amp) versus our Maraschino amplifier (a 400Wpc amp!!).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112666)
The Maraschino has about 1/100th the distortion of the well respected RM-10! Also note that THD+N from the RM-10 goes above 10% at low frequencies. Some might say that the "tube amp distortion sounds good", but we believe less is more when it comes to distortion, and cleaner just sounds better....
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I wonder how many people are using an RM 10 for a subwoofer amp. :lol:
Sorry, but most of your arguments are falling on deaf (tube lover) ears.
If tube guys were that worried about a little distortion they wouldn't have them in the first place. :roll:
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No doubt most tube lovers are quite “religious” about their tubes. But as with all religious fanaticism, some eventually do manage to break free.
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No doubt most tube lovers are quite “religious” about their tubes. But as with all religious fanaticism, some eventually do manage to break free.
True, and some wake up and realize what they are missing. :)
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Well I have to admit I never thought I’d find anything SS - much less Class D...
that could compete with - never mind shatter my single ended triode delusion. :deadhorse:
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True, and some wake up and realize what they are missing. :)
One Cherry Amp audition (decent room, source, and speakers) and you will want Cherry Sound for your personal enjoyment 8)
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Here's a comparison of the distortion (actually THD+N) at 10Wpc output from an RM-10 MK ii (a 35Wpc amp) versus our Maraschino amplifier (a 400Wpc amp!!).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112666)
The Maraschino has about 1/100th the distortion of the well respected RM-10! Also note that THD+N from the RM-10 goes above 10% at low frequencies. Some might say that the "tube amp distortion sounds good", but we believe less is more when it comes to distortion, and cleaner just sounds better....
Newbie question:
Why was 10w chosen? [I ask because I would not listen to music with 10 tube watts blasting out of my speakers.]
Thank you.
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Newbie question:
Why was 10w chosen? [I ask because I would not listen to music with 10 tube watts blasting out of my speakers.]
Thank you.
>3000 posts on Audio Circle isn’t what we’d call “newbie”-ish !!
10W (average) is a “sweet spot” where common/typical low-to-mid-90s dB efficiency speakers are able to create near-field live-level music. Also, amps tend to perform better when “taking it easy”, so a 1W plot, for example, tells you less. Thanks for your comment (:
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Lots of listeners say “low power tubes sound louder than low power solid state”....
Well, this is due in part by the soft clipping effect of tubes, but put an 8W SET amp up against a 120Wpc Stereo Maraschino, and it’s no contest when playing loud! The Cherry will blow away the SET amp. No clipping ALWAYS beats soft clipping !!
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Specs and numbers matter to most of us but at the end of the day it is usually 'how it sounds' that matters most.
As we build our systems, we often start with gear that “sounds good”…whatever that means to each of us individually. Over time, we come to recognize that our systems have shortfalls…maybe aspects that need to be added and maybe aspects that need to be subtracted.
Very generally speaking, the Cherry gear seems to improve the sense of tone, clarity and aliveness that results in the music sounding more real. For those people wanting their home systems to approach the sound of live music, the Cherry amps will take you there.
Also, very generally speaking, tube gear seems to remove some the harshness that may result from source/speaker/room interactions (which most of us have experienced on our audio journey). In addition, tube gear often results in a soundstage that many describe as 3d…almost surround sound. Although this may not be completely realistic, it is definitely fun.
Eventually, most of us, end up wanting a system that sounds right…which usually means that it sounds like live music (as much as possible). The switch to Cherry for someone already owning solid state is pretty easy. The switch to Cherry for someone owning tubes may take more time with the Cherry in their system. Why, because the Cherry sound will be more like real music…less surround sound effect (but still very holographic) and much more detail and tonal accuracy than they are used to.
What if at the end of the day, they still prefer tubes. For me, that is absolutely fine because this hobby is all about enjoyment and preferring tubes now is not to say that they won’t prefer something else down the road.
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Reading this thread reminds me of my first crush, my friends kept saying "her?"
When music touches us it doesn't matter where it comes from, I have listen to my car's radio and enjoyed a song.
YEARS ago, I used every penny I had to buy a Crown DC300a, traded it for a Phase Linear 700b, and it for a SAE...... Somewhere along the line I moved to Audio Research then Rowland then to Cary.
For me, no SS I have heard can match the makeup tubes apply to midrange. The right tubes in the right equipment will keep your wallet open like my first "crush".
For now I am a SS guy, for two reasons
SS midrange has gotten more tube like. To me the top and bottom were always better
Even though tube equipment has gotten more reliable, NOS tubes are expensive.
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These threads on Audio Circle also mention tubes vs Cherry....
"SHATTERED GLASS … No more tubes – Class D all the way baby and loving it!"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154294.0
"The Honeymoon Ain't Over Yet..."
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156310.0
"Does the Cherry Amp sound like tubes ????"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107837.0
"Stereo Maraschino (King Version)"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149310.0