AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Tangram on 3 Oct 2023, 12:32 am
-
I’m using a Pass Labs XA25 with my M3 Sapphires with nice results but I’m curious to hear from those Spatial owners who don’t have a powered woofer model or subs who use tube amps. I’ve read that 4-ohm speakers aren’t ideal for tube amps but I’ve noted over the past couple of years that a few of you use them. Add to that Clayton using LTA tube amps for demos and the recent announcement of the Don Sachs-designed tube monoblocs.
I listen at a decent volume (85 db C-weighted peaks) and prize high-quality bass. With these two points along with my passive 4-ohm speakers, would I be taking a step back with tubes vs. my XA25?
-
I'm using a Rogue Stereo 100 Dark and the bass is very tight and descriptive. I talked with another M3 Sapphire owner who had Rogue mono blocks and a Pass Labs XA25 and he said the bass was similar. I haven't heard the Don Sachs amps, but I'm sure they sound nice. I heard the M3 Sapphires with the LTA amps at The Show in Long Beach in 2021 with Clayton there. I was very impressed with that sound and placed an order that day. As of right now I don't feel a need to change amps.
-
Have you read this thread?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0
-
I’m using a Pass Labs XA25 with my M3 Sapphires with nice results but I’m curious to hear from those Spatial owners who don’t have a powered woofer model or subs who use tube amps. I’ve read that 4-ohm speakers aren’t ideal for tube amps but I’ve noted over the past couple of years that a few of you use them. Add to that Clayton using LTA tube amps for demos and the recent announcement of the Don Sachs-designed tube monoblocs.
I listen at a decent volume (85 db C-weighted peaks) and prize high-quality bass. With these two points along with my passive 4-ohm speakers, would I be taking a step back with tubes vs. my XA25?
Don Sachs' Valhalla amp would drive your speakers including the passive woofers. They used it on the M4 Ultras (which have passive bass woofers) at Pacific Audio Fest and it sounded great. I thought it sounded about 85% as good as the mono-blocks that will cost 4x the price (when the preamp is factored in).
I thought that the Valhalla's biggest leap over the LTA integrated was in the bass area so I think you would be happy with it. Supposedly the Spatial Audio crew preferred this amp over others. Plus Cloud Sessions has improved the components on it since Don turned it over to him (Don's words).
Just my two cents on the thread linked above.
-
Have you read this thread?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0
Yes, thanks. To be clear, I am not at the stage of WHICH tube amp. I am trying to determine what the difference in sound presentation between the XA25 and a suitable tube amp would be. The Spatials are 4-ohm speakers. Tube amps of days gone by were seeing 10 ohm or higher speaker impedances. The designer for Atma-sphere has commented on Audiogon that his amps (highly regarded for sure!) are most suitable for 8 ohm and higher.
I recognize this sort of exercise isn’t perfect since there people hear differently and value certain audio characteristics that might not align with my own preferences. For example, I appreciate the comments on the Rogue amp (there happens to be a Dark version for sale locally) and the comments about the bass, yet I read in two reviews that the bass isn’t its strongest point. Adequate, but not standout.
Notwithstanding the flaws in this approach, the Toronto Audiofest is three weeks away and I want to go armed with some knowledge/questions (mostly questions) about tube amps for my setup. On that note, can anyone point me to an impedance sweep for the M3 Sapphires that I can prnt and take with me to the show?
Thanks for the responses so far. That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.
-
hought that the Valhalla's biggest leap over the LTA integrated was in the bass area so I think you would be happy with it. Supposedly the Spatial Audio crew preferred this amp over others. Plus Cloud Sessions has improved the components on it since Don turned it over to him (Don's words).
In page 4 of your thread I posted Cloud’s comments in response to a question I asked about the Valhalla. His set up uses M4’s so not an exact apples to apples M3 comparison but likely representative of the passive response.
Clayton also mentioned the Valhalla in a meeting with the SF Audio Society that is linked on the DS Valhalla page.
http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/valhalla%20integrated.html
-
Yes, thanks. To be clear, I am not at the stage of WHICH tube amp. I am trying to determine what the difference in sound presentation between the XA25 and a suitable tube amp would be. The Spatials are 4-ohm speakers. Tube amps of days gone by were seeing 10 ohm or higher speaker impedances. The designer for Atma-sphere has commented on Audiogon that his amps (highly regarded for sure!) are most suitable for 8 ohm and higher.
I recognize this sort of exercise isn’t perfect since there people hear differently and value certain audio characteristics that might not align with my own preferences. For example, I appreciate the comments on the Rogue amp (there happens to be a Dark version for sale locally) and the comments about the bass, yet I read in two reviews that the bass isn’t its strongest point. Adequate, but not standout.
Notwithstanding the flaws in this approach, the Toronto Audiofest is three weeks away and I want to go armed with some knowledge/questions (mostly questions) about tube amps for my setup. On that note, can anyone point me to an impedance sweep for the M3 Sapphires that I can prnt and take with me to the show?
Thanks for the responses so far. That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.
Something like a really well-made tube amp by McIntosh McIntosh mc275 mark vi. Would be [perfect power-wise and synergy to your speakers and it has 4-ohm taps. BUT you cannot go by what the speaker says, I've found you have to try both 4-8ohm taps and the one that gives you the dynamics and bass response is the one to use. My Dynaudio Confidence speakers were 8 Ohm but when Don from McIntosh told me one day have you ever tried the 4-ohm taps? I said no he suggested I try them, and when I did my jaw dropped, slam, bass, blacker background etc. Was like I purchased a new system/speaker. Another learning experience for me is if you have an amp where you can choose, they by all means take a minute and try them. Now on my Sapphire M3, the 8-ohm tape worked the best even though the specs say a 4-ohm load. So there you go. The 4-ohm tap with these speakers sounded dead/boring. So give it a try if you own a tube amp that allows you to choose the best matching output for your speakers.
-
That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.
There's only one way to find out -- you gotta spend the time and money to experiment with a few high-quality tube amps. But you can't stop with the amp. You gotta mate the amp with a tube preamp, at a minimum. It's a vicious cycle and the best-sounding tubes cost almost as much as the gear.
-
I have that covered. EAR 868pl using either Amperex Bugle Boy or Seimens tubes. I use the MM input with an Allnic AUT-2000 SUT. Pretty happy with it.
-
For a speaker with dual passive woofers and dipping to 4 ohm impedance, my experience has been that you should stick with push-pull amps because SETs (even big SETs) tend to struggle with that type of load.
Of the push-pull amps, I like Cary and Don Sachs because they use octals in their driver stage.
-
I own the M3 Sapphires and started with SS gear, Parasound, Krell, SPL. I had never owned a tube amp and wanted so bad to hear the difference with these outstanding speakers. I was tempted with the Raven line but wound up going up the Octave line. Started with the V40se and then to the V80se. Both amps were stunning and drove the Sapphires beautifully. Wound up with the V70 Class A which was my end game. Not sure of your budget but you might explore if that might be of interest to you.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223799)
-
You're getting sound advice here. Until you hear a few amps with various tubes you're not really gonna have any idea. Unless you have a small room, I'd go with a push pull. I've owned the Don Saxhs and the LTA. The Bib Carver crimson is also a very easy and inexpensive way to enter the tube world and they have great customer service as well. Don Sachs is a stellar guy as well and if you can find one of his used I'll bet you will love it as most do. I've owned two.
-
I’d be curious to hear from M-series owners who have used Class A solid state amps (like the XA25) as well as tube amps with their Spatials. What differences do you hear and why do you prefer one over the other?
Also, I took this screen grab of the impedance sweep from the New Record Day video review. Apologies that the scales can’t be read easily. Bottoms out at 3.3 ohms at 50 Hz. If anything I have too much energy (yes, measured) with the Pass amp at 50 Hz. I interpret that as the room’s resonant frequency. Could be a happy coincidence if I try tubes!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257223)
-
All good advice especially the Octave, Sachs and LTA. I would add Primaluna to the mix. If you're looking used you can usually find good deals on the Dialogue Premium amps or integrateds if you don't have a dedicated preamp. I've owned a few PL products and currently have the Evo300 which has been my favorite. The amp is dead quiet, superb dynamics and can run so many different tubes (I have way too many). After trying many different amps (mostly tube) over the past 3 years I wound up going back to PL because it just does everything so well. I also have a Line Magnetic 518 integrated, which I'll be selling, because I just got a great deal on a used 845 Premium that's always been on the bucket list and won't need the 518, which is also a magical amp. But my first tube amp was a Primaluna and I loved it and I would recommend it with your speakers and tube amp simply because of the versatility of trying different tubes.
Since your speakers are reasonably efficient I recommend the PL amps that only use 4 power tubes (Dialogue Premium or Evo300, not the HP models or Evo400). When I listened to the HP I felt it was more dynamic but lost some tube magic and if you tube roll you'll need to spend 2x due to doubling the power tube count. Save some money and look for a Dialogue (not the prologue series) Premium. No matter which tube amp you chose I think you'll be surprised by the sound vs solid state. I know for me, once I heard the tube sound I haven't found a solid state amp I prefer.
-
I grew up with tubes and love them, but for the last 20 years solid state because it sounds so good in its own right. I match amp and preamp currently Mark Levinson 326S preamp and 532H two channel amp that can drive about any speaker made. Runs hot and it can put out some good current, drives my Spatial Audio Sapphire M3's superbly. Don't miss tubes at all while still have my love for them, but you can keep the cost of retubing and QA issues with tubes of today. I used NOS tubes only when I had tubes, the EL34 is still my must musical sounding tubes for amps. I can just sit back and enjoy my system now days without worry about tube rolling to find a sound/coloration that pleases my ear, or if a tube is going bad and such. If I purchased tube gear today it be McIntosh or to save some money Prima Luna, McIntosh has over 60 years in making tube gear, so they know what they are doing, for tube amps I would only buy pure tube that means a tube rectifier in the power supply NO solid state, I want tube gear to sound like a tube gear. Prima Luna does use tube through their amps, so a tube rectifier. Good design and they know what they are doing. Same for a tube preamp 100% tube in the power supply, and simple circuits with beefy power supply where it can kill you if you go in a touch an area you should not touch, I've done that, and it was no fun. Oh, the good old days of the 70's and 80's.
My Sapphires M3's just sing with my Mcintosh MC 402 amp @400 watts and today my Mark Levinson 523H @300 watts along with the matching preamp the 326S. The system sounds as natural as tubes at their best, but with huge dynamics, micro dynamics, ultra-low noise flood where you can hear a violin subside into nothingness. Hear breaths being taken on one recording before the piece starts for the recordings and so on.
-
Solid state has gotten so good I don't think there's a good argument for tube gear anymore, other than nostalgia or the cool factor. I've owned both over many years. I don't miss the heat, maintenance, noise and fiddly-ness. Just one man's experience. There is certainly great soung tube gear out there, and equally great solid state.
-
Solid state has gotten so good I don't think there's a good argument for tube gear anymore, other than nostalgia or the cool factor. I've owned both over many years. I don't miss the heat, maintenance, noise and fiddly-ness. Just one man's experience. There is certainly great soung tube gear out there, and equally great solid state.
I was a tube guy myself and have owned at least 30 of really good tubes and agree with you entirely. I'm over tube noises, scarcity of good tubes, etc and the new Gen SS amps give me all that I need.
-
Like the other tube apostates, I've also given up on tubes. Many of you may remember the GanFet thread. For the last 13 months I've been using MiniGan 5 monoblocks and I don't see myself returning to tubes. And this from a 30 year tube devotee (albeit I also owned good SS kit). I remember with my BAT VK-51SE (and 52SE) there often seemed to be at least one 6H30 that didn't want to play nice with the others (spitting, sputtering, etc.). Ditto for many other tube amps I owned. I loved my Psvane 845 monoblocks but, simply put, they are not as engaging as the 5 lb GanFet toys. I've now sold my Manley Neo-Classic 300B amps used in the upstairs system (and the Psvane, Granite Audio, Hartung 125 OTL monos are all for sale). Although I remain with an extraordinary stash of n7's, l7's, etc., I just can't justify the tube ritual/cost/weight/heat given the engaging extraordinary sound of SS. Never would have believed it. But I guess if Ralph Karsten can make the leap to SS (GanFets), well....
-
I've gone back to tubes, and some of you SS guys may return, as well. Two decades ago I had a pair of Rogue tube monoblocks, and then moved back to solid state for a long time until recently. Generally, tubes provide a different sound from solid-state, but for most people, this difference, even if preferred, isn't worth the added price and aggravation. Whereas solid-state is the practical choice, tubes have a naturalness to their sound that solid-state seeks to emulate, but can't quite get there. Good-sounding solid state is relatively less expensive now with the advent of Class D whereas the opposite is true for tube gear. Really great-sounding tubed components require a substantial investment -- in many cases they they have doubled in price over the past three years.
-
Early B - totally respect your opinion but I find myself disagreeing. I can't say that I'm the final arbiter of what sounds more natural anymore than any other listener. As has been said too many times, we each have our preferred distortion spectra. For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes. In fact, as I wrote earlier, I don't use typical descriptors, i.e., "rich," "bloomy," "dense," etc., with GanFets. GanFets just sound "right" to me. And it could be that the frequency spectrum is susceptible to segmentation where one technology victors over the other at least for that frequency range. But, again, tubes sound more natural than SS? I keep coming back to Ralph Karsten who, for those who may not know, is the owner and designer of Atma-Sphere amps and who, in a recent San Francisco Audiophile Society podcast revealed that in his personal system he is now listening exclusively to GanFet (having released GanFet monoblocks about 18 months ago). You could be correct that someday I'll return to tubes but after almost 50 years in this "hobby" and listening intently to GanFets both upstairs and downstairs for the last year, I'm not thinking so.
-
I did use the LSA GaNfet and was really impressed by the sound. Detail was off the charts without the class d "edginess." I've also heard great things about the Atmasphere GaNfet amp and would be open to trying it in my system. Especially in the summer when my LM 845p will be way too hot. I think speaker matching is key here as well. My speakers, Cube Nenuphar Mini, are fairly efficient and are designed to work with low damped, low or no feedback amps. Most solid state amps have higher damping factor and while they work and can sound good they've tended to sound a bit dry with my speakers. If you have speakers that are below 88db efficient and are more than 4ohms, make sure to use a tube amp with some grunt (not a 300b SET). But to really get the most out of a tube amp I'd suggest speakers 88db efficient or more.
-
Early B - totally respect your opinion but I find myself disagreeing. I can't say that I'm the final arbiter of what sounds more natural anymore than any other listener. As has been said too many times, we each have our preferred distortion spectra. For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes.
There's tube gear and then there's tube gear. The popular EL34, KT88, 6550, 12AX7, 12AU7, etc. tube combos aren't what I'm referring to. Brand names are largely insignificant. That's why I said it costs a lot of money to get good tube gear. For instance, a great pair of tube monos today is easily $20K, but you can grab a used pair of Atma Sphere Class D monos for $4K and be quite content with them. The $20K tube monos may or may not sound better than $4K Class D monos, but they'll most certainly sound different. That difference in sound that I'm labeling as, "more natural" may be worth the additional cost for some audiophiles who can afford to do so. (Disclaimer -- I ain't one of those audiophiles! :nono:)
-
I tried the Mini-Gan 5 with my Spatial Audio X5s and it didn't do anything for me. On the other hand, it made my Kef LS50 Metas roar. I also have some Nola Boxer 3S bookshelf speakers which the Mini-Gan 5 didn't do much for. They sounded pretty decent with my Nakamichi TA-4A but then I got a Cayin CS88-A and that gave me exactly what I wanted (note that the owner of Nola recommended this amp and said that the Boxers were tuned to KT88s).
I guess what I'm saying is that has to be synergy with the equipment and I haven't found the Mini-Gan 5 to play nice with anything but the Kefs but have found great synergy with tube amps.
-
I guess what I'm saying is that has to be synergy with the equipment and I haven't found the Mini-Gan 5 to play nice with anything but the Kefs but have found great synergy with tube amps.
"Synergy" is one of those elusive audiophile terms. Basically, it means one thing doesn't sound "right" with another thing. Recently, I bought some interconnects and they sounded a bit harsh. I switched tubes in my DAC and now they sound great. Had I not switched tubes, I could have concluded that the cables didn't have good synergy with the components connected to them or one component didn't have synergy with the other, but both scenarios would have been incorrect. I guess what I'm saying is maybe the synergy issue isn't between the newly installed amp and speakers, per se, but a different interconnect or power cord or tube or subwoofer setting or whatever is needed to get them to sound "right."
-
"Synergy" is one of those elusive audiophile terms. Basically, it means one thing doesn't sound "right" with another thing.
It seems to reason that the more variables you introduce the more elusive “sounding right” becomes. Getting it right becomes a design of experiments with no measurable criteria to judge rightness. This is definitely a hobby for patient, well informed tinkerers like all y’all.
-
...Getting it right becomes a design of experiments with no measurable criteria to judge rightness.
There is a saying that has been floating around audio circles for decades. I am not sure who coined it but it goes something like this:
If it measures good then it may still not sound good. If it sounds good then it is good.
The key here is that "sounds good" is subjective. All that really matters is that it sounds good to you. It is the trial and error path that can become expensive and requires patience. You can ease this a bit but spending a lot of time on the forums looking for word of mouth consensus. Look for praise of component combinations, not just individual components.
Having said this, here is what works for me with my X5's. I have had a lot of amps, both tube and SS. I have owned Class D, Tripath, Pass First Watt, classic Dynaco, plus 300B/2A3/45 etc. I have even built amps, some from scratch. My system has been a work in progress for many decades. I have reached plateaus where I though I could be satisfied forever. Inevitably I am lured back to "The Audiophile Dream" that I can still find something better. With my X5's I feel that I have reached the endgame for me, both sonically and financially, with a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear amp. It is just 20 watts but works very well with these hybrid speakers and their 500 watt LF amp and drivers. It has the detail and drive of a good SS amp with the soul of tubes. If I had passive Spatials(M3/X4) I would probably want more power however, depending on room size and music preference.
YMMV...
-
What I've learned over the past year is how much the room impacts how our systems sound no matter if it is Tubes, S.S. Class D, or Class B (Naim). Further what cables and power cords. I recently redid my audio loft, added newer acoustic panels, and then once up moved them around to learn how they impacted the sound. What I found was a power cord or preamp gain setting what I liked it the past I found in the "new" room was beaten by changing power cords that I might not have liked before but sounded better now, my gain setting on my preamp allows for any input 0-18db of gain, where I did not enjoy the 0 & 6db gain settings I found that now I could enjoy them, where I still lean to the 12db setting, I can enjoy the 6db setting which gives more detail while not as in room as the 12db setting which has stronger bass. My panels are a combination of absorption and diffusion, the panels have a designed front cover made of wood that can easily be taken off. I did that to learn how they impacted sound, I did put them back on due to the room seeming quieter, and more open feeling, but I heard the loss of some weight replaced by detail I wanted a balance of both, knowing what I had up before, I only removed the front defusion panels from the ones on the front wall behind the speakers the M3's Sapphires. Did not take 20 seconds to hear the gain in the body, midbass, and vocals now sounding real with openness but now flesh and bone not just an airy wisp of a voice sans a body, throat, and chest. So with any room, the gear we all choose is what is working for the acoustics of that given room. With just those simple removal of a few of the front panels, I went back and swapped power cords on my gear and line conditioner and wound up with different groups of cords same brand throughout the system that now just make my gear sing without running out and buy new gear to get a sound that I liked in my room with its acoustics which will change if I change what is in that room that I could lose my adding or subtracting from wall acoustics, or furniture, carpeting etc. So is the tube, SS. Is class D or B better? well, I would say any of them could be a winner depending on many factors in your audio room, rooms matter as much as gear. I also will say from what I learned is when we choose speakers it is what works in that given room and its acoustics, which is something we are all dealing with a stuck with and one many don't invest enough in and that includes speaker setup where general setup from manufactures do not mean that is what will work the best in a given room, and its acoustics and size. You have to break rules and try out things so you can learn and train your ear to hear the difference and what each placement does on how a speaker sounds.
-
Thanks everyone for chiming in. While I’ve been mulling over a tube amp purchase I’ve continued to listen to my XA25. The bass I’m getting is so good that I have concerns that going the tube amp route will be a downgrade in that department and quality bass is something I value. So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got. Instead I’m revisiting Jim Smith’s Get Better Sound and experimenting with speaker and listening chair placement.
-
So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got.
Always a good decision!
-
Thanks everyone for chiming in. While I’ve been mulling over a tube amp purchase I’ve continued to listen to my XA25. The bass I’m getting is so good that I have concerns that going the tube amp route will be a downgrade in that department and quality bass is something I value. So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got. Instead I’m revisiting Jim Smith’s Get Better Sound and experimenting with speaker and listening chair placement.
Best of luck on your journey.
I got hung up in a similar place and eventually swore off any gear changes until getting the room and set up sorted, which has me far down a fruitful REW / treatments / DSP path.
-
For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes.
I know this post is about tubes, but since the SS comparison has come into the conversation, I just wanted to share my experience with tubes vs. SS. I used to own the PrimaLuna EVO 400 preamp and power amp combo with my X5s and they sounded glorious. I sold them and moved onto a Luxman L509x integrated which sounded very good as well. I sold the Luxman and bought a Parasound JC5 which was very nice too! Lol…. I tried a lot of different things in my setup, including room treatments, trying to tame the top end of my X5s, which was an early version vs. the newer version which Clayton added a resistor to the AMT driver because they concluded that it tended to be a little bright at times. I had the newer version of the X5 as well, I ended up selling my X5s and moved onto another speaker brand which I will not discuss on this Spatial Audio forum.
So, my amplifier quest ended with a pair of AGD Audion Mkiii mono block class D GaNfet amps. They are insanely good and the best I have heard in my system. I wish I could have heard them with my X5s, but it’s too late now, plus I preferred a fully passive speaker like the X4 over the X5.
The AGDs sound like they have a nice touch of the tube sound with all the qualities of a good SS amp. Most manufacturers of SS like to say their amps sound like tubes with SS attributes and tube manufacturers say their gear sound like SS with all the tube attributes. So, I like both SS and tubes, but if I can get some tube sound out of a SS amp, SS is what I will choose.
The tube you see on top of the amps are the class D output stage. Whenever AGD produces an upgraded output stage, you can buy it and do a field upgrade simply by removing the current module and replace it with the upgraded module. In fact, the Mkiii module is AGDs latest version and is available to anyone that owns the original Audion mono blocks or the Mkii version. Do not let the size or looks of it fool you. I don’t believe in judging gear until I have heard it in my system, so I have no issues with any experience you guys have with your gear! Find a dealer that will let you audition them at home and let that experience be your final court of arbitration.
I have the polished version, but they offer them in a satin finish.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257849)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257850)
-
I've heard nothing but good things about these amps. So glad you are enjoying them.
-
I've heard nothing but good things about these amps. So glad you are enjoying them.
Thanks! I wanted to demo some class D amps and I kept reading positive reviews about AGD amps after Bengenito recommended the brand to me several months ago. I attempted to demo VTV class D amps two times and they malfunctioned both times, so I moved on. I found an AGD dealer that let me demo them and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. The reviews were spot on with their impressions. I ordered them and very satisfied.
-
Just to throw an another opinion into the mix, I run my M4 Sapphires on an Audion KT150 amp (single ended configuration) that puts out 25W per channel (8 ohm) and it plays plenty loud enough for me. My room is on the smaller side, and I listen just over 2m from the speakers. Also, I only listen up to about 75 dB peaks.
I have been auditioning other amps because I am thinking of upgrading, and the best sound I have heard so far is from an Allnic 300B SET that puts out 10W a channel. The grip and control this amp has on the speakers (yes, even in the bass) is obvious. Images like a mofo, too. I have also tried the AGD Audion monoblocks (shown above) and an Enleum Amp-23R. Both were very good sounding (especially the AGD) but I prefer the Allnic.
To the OP, I think really you just have to try things yourself and see. Depending on your room, taste and loudness preference, some low wattage tube goodness might be all you need.
-
What is the cost of the AGD Audion Mkiii mono blocks?
George
-
What is the cost of the AGD Audion Mkiii mono blocks?
George
See current price below, per the website.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=257996)
-
Back to our regular, non-GanFet, programming.
I decided to pull the trigger on an LTA Ultralinear Plus integrated and compare it head-to-head with my Pass Labs XA25/EAR 868 combo, using my M3 Sapphires. Could be a fool’s errand but there’s only one way to find out. Stay tuned (if interested). The amp is making a long trek from it’s previous owner so no initial impressions for a while.
It’s a shame this board is suffering a slow death. Looking forward to Spatial’s 2024 product offerings and the (hopeful) resurgence of the good conversations of the past.
-
If you get the chance try out Carver's RAM 285. I was extremely impressed at the synergy with my X4.
-
If you get the chance try out Carver's RAM 285. I was extremely impressed at the synergy with my X4.
Nah.
-
Back to our regular, non-GanFet, programming.
I decided to pull the trigger on an LTA Ultralinear Plus integrated and compare it head-to-head with my Pass Labs XA25/EAR 868 combo, using my M3 Sapphires. Could be a fool’s errand but there’s only one way to find out. Stay tuned (if interested). The amp is making a long trek from it’s previous owner so no initial impressions for a while.
It’s a shame this board is suffering a slow death. Looking forward to Spatial’s 2024 product offerings and the (hopeful) resurgence of the good conversations of the past.
I think you will be happy with the LTA. The Ultralinear is supposed to have a bit more oomph than the Z40+ I had (in one review, the Ultralinear was able to drive Magnepan LRSs whereas the Z40+ couldn't other than low volume playback). I will be interested in your report. I thought the LTA Z40+ sounded quite good. There is a whole thread on that.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0
Not sure the Spatial board is dying. When Clayton got sick and Spatial kinda went dark things slowed down. Even now Spatial only has a couple of offerings but soon will be selling high end amplification stuff and they already (Cloud) are selling Don's Valhalla amp. But all of the boards are a bit slow other than the trading post section compared to Audiogon or others but those also have a lot of tension in them. I've found this board to be quite helpful and friendly for the most part.
-
I think you will be happy with the LTA. The Ultralinear is supposed to have a bit more oomph than the Z40+ I had (in one review, the Ultralinear was able to drive Magnepan LRSs whereas the Z40+ couldn't other than low volume playback). I will be interested in your report. I thought the LTA Z40+ sounded quite good. There is a whole thread on that.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0
Not sure the Spatial board is dying. When Clayton got sick and Spatial kinda went dark things slowed down. Even now Spatial only has a couple of offerings but soon will be selling high end amplification stuff and they already (Cloud) are selling Don's Valhalla amp. But all of the boards are a bit slow other than the trading post section compared to Audiogon or others but those also have a lot of tension in them. I've found this board to be quite helpful and friendly for the most part.
Been so many posts here at some point it has to slow down, I think that everything that could be said by owners has been said. I am sure as new products hit the market and we start looking into them and owning them this site will kick back in.
-
The LTA UL Integrated arrived a week early. Here are some thoughts regarding how it stacks up against my XA25/EAR868 pairing.
I was surprised by two things:
1) The LTA has more and fatter bass than the XA25.
2) I preferred listening to the LTA at lower volume than the XA25, which makes me wonder if the LTA’s frequency response is, well, more linear. I do need to push the LTA a bit though, volume was between 60 and 67 for the session, which tells me that the Spatials’ sensitivity, combined with the 4 ohm impedance, is borderline too low.
The XA25 is more dynamic but only by a hair. Both are very detailed but I was surprised by how detailed the LTA was given the tubes. Music seems to flow and pulse from the LTA, like it has a beating heart. The XA25 is more neutral, a tad less euphonic. LTA soundstage is wiiide, even bigger than the XA25, which is no slouch. Overall, the LTA envelopes you in sound, like being wrapped in a warm blanket!
Other observations: the LTA gets pretty hot! I guess that’s tube amps for you. I have it on a separate rack with nothing above it so all good. It’s so light. Lack of output transformers along with the switching power supply? And it is unbelievably quiet, which I stack up to good engineering along with the ZOTL topology. I’d love to try the amp with uber-sensitive speakers in the 8 ohm, 100 db range (i.e. horns.)
Is the XA25 leaving the stable? No. I won’t sell it since I don’t know what speakers are in my future and the amp could be the perfect fit for the right type of speakers. But the LTA is a revelation. As long as it stays comfortable with the volume at 60%, it’s all good. Admittedly I am wondering if the Z40 may be the better fit for the Spatials (because of the higher power output) but then I would probably lose some of the glorious detail and bass the UL seemingly magically pulls off.
Overall, I'm extremely impressed. That's a lot of performance packed into a smallish, light package.
-
I had the LTA reference 40 plus with the Don Sachs pre with my X5's and it was a very nice combo. Then I got Don's 300b stereo version and it was really no comparison. Stunning depth and resolution. Huge soundstage. It was really quite a revelation. Cloud at Spatial was a big fan and still is for LTA amps, BUT upon hearing Don's prototype monos he posted how overjoyed he was at that amp with Spatial speakers. Steve (sjsfiveo) on this site in a current active thread is selling his 300b stereo version as we speak. Maybe worth look8ng into.
-
Thanks for that. I’m surprised a 300B based amp is enough to drive Spatials. Maybe there’s some secret sauce? I have had some more seat time with the LTA over the past couple of days as well as going back and forth with the XA25. I’ll be sticking with the LTA for the foreseeable future. It’s an amazing piece of kit - such good sound, so well sorted. It would be great to compare the LTA and Don Sachs amps side-by-side.
-
Thanks for that. I’m surprised a 300B based amp is enough to drive Spatials. Maybe there’s some secret sauce? I have had some more seat time with the LTA over the past couple of days as well as going back and forth with the XA25. I’ll be sticking with the LTA for the foreseeable future. It’s an amazing piece of kit - such good sound, so well sorted. It would be great to compare the LTA and Don Sachs amps side-by-side.
Not sure why you're surprised about the 300b driving Spatials. X5's are 8 ohms with 98 sensitivity. I've have flea watt amps hooked to these things with all kinds of head room. Clayton himself used to show his speakers with the LTA 10.
All the best to you.
-
Sorry. I was talking about my M3 Sapphires: 92 db, 4 ohm.
-
I owned the M3 Sapphires (sold them). I also own a X25 and a Wells Audio amp...the Wells gives you much of what the X25 gives you, but more midrange warmth and sound density....so, some of the sought after tube characteristics. This amp looks to be a pretty good deal....
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650047875-wells-audio-innamorata-stereo-channel-power-amplifier/
Here is a review:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0513/wells_audio_innamorata_amplifier.htm
-
Sorry. I was talking about my M3 Sapphires: 92 db, 4 ohm.
Hi
The various prototypes of the 300b, and of course the final version that Spatial is now making will easily drive 88 dB. They are very high current. The M3 Sapphire is easy for it. I know it will drive an 86 dB mini monitor in a smaller living room to screaming levels. It has all the drive of a 60 watt/ch KT88 amp even though it specs at about 25 watts/ch. As for how it compares to LTA gear.... well let's just say it inhabits a different universe entirely. It should. It costs a lot more.....
-
With moderate to high efficiency speakers we are not even using a full watt the vast majority of the time.
-
Hi
The various prototypes of the 300b, and of course the final version that Spatial is now making will easily drive 88 dB. They are very high current. The M3 Sapphire is easy for it. I know it will drive an 86 dB mini monitor in a smaller living room to screaming levels. It has all the drive of a 60 watt/ch KT88 amp even though it specs at about 25 watts/ch. As for how it compares to LTA gear.... well let's just say it inhabits a different universe entirely. It should. It costs a lot more.....
Thanks for the clarification Don. The new amp sounds like an amazing design that will appeal to a wider reange of speaker owners. Will the new amps work just as effectively with 4 ohm speakers?
-
Will the new amps work just as effectively with 4 ohm speakers?
8 and 4 ohm taps standard.
As always try both.
https://www.spatialaudiolab.com/revelation-300b-monoblocks
-
Thanks for the clarification Don. The new amp sounds like an amazing design that will appeal to a wider reange of speaker owners. Will the new amps work just as effectively with 4 ohm speakers?
Yes, they are quite happy to play into 4 ohm loads. They have 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps and we have run them with 4 ohm 88-89 dB speakers with no problem and plenty of power.
-
Also, just a note that Spatial will be presenting their latest speaker(s) and the Revelation series preamp and amps at the SW Audio Fest in Dallas March 15-17. I will be there as well on the Friday and Saturday and I believe Lynn Olson is planning to attend.
Maybe I will see some of you there.