[peter4jc]

This is most likely nothing more than upgraditis, combined with some cash burning a hole in my pocket, but please help me with your input/experience.

I'm currently listening to some great equipment; Vision SLR w/ VisionQ+ built in, DVA M225's, Ariston rd11-s with a modified Denon DL103 MC, Philharmonic Audio HT Towers, and M&K sub.  Room acoustics have been addressed.

I can't point to one thing I'm not happy with, but... and there's always a but... I've got myself thinking there may be something that could take it up a notch, and right now I'm wondering about a new phono stage.  Darlington Labs seems to be calling my name; they seem to do what AVA and Philharmonic do; great minds with high integrity who design and build products that could/should sell for more but want people to enjoy their stuff more than they want to get rich.

I'm looking for advice on whether or not the phono stage is a good place to improve things.  Does this system even warrant anything above the VisionQ+?  I am comfortable in my retirement and can afford it but I'm trying to decide if it's a good idea or not.  If someone was asking me for advice on this I'd be asking them, "What is it you're looking to improve?" and I don't know that I have an answer for that; I just want to be relatively certain that I'm not leaving something on the table; having spent ~$14K to this point, wouldn't spending another $1K to extract the system's full potential make sense?

Thank you in advance.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

The AVA phono pre is a nice piece.  I reviewed it for AVA.  An upgrade will certainly improve sound.  But you may need to spend about $1500.  I would consider the Parasound JC3 jr..  However, there are plenty of great phono preamps to choose from. 

A cartridge upgrade also, is not a bad way to go.

Upgrading to the AVA FET Valve preamp would be a nice step up from the Vision.  That would be my preference.

[peter4jc]

Thank you.

[TomBo]

Hey! Nice system! I also have and adore the Vision Q+ but in a standalone configuration... regarding the new Fet Valve Preamp, isn't the phono option also a Vision Q+? Does the Fet Valve add that tube magic to the phono chain in that case?

[I.Greyhound Fan]

The FET Valve preamp is AVA's best sounding preamp.  It also responds well to tube rolling.  The AVA phono pre is great for the price.  Jerry Raskin the owner of the now defunct Needle Doctor here in the Twin Cities told Frank VA that his phono pre is better than any of the phono preamps he sold that cost up to $1K.

[peter4jc]

You know how those MN lads like to stick together...    

I miss Jerry Raskin and the Needle Doctor.  He and the store were a great asset.

I'll be contacting Mary or Frank to see if they'll take my Vision in trade on a FET Valve.

[gene9p]

phono cartridges do make a BIG difference....assuming you listen to a lot of vinyl like me.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

You know how those MN lads like to stick together...    

I miss Jerry Raskin and the Needle Doctor.  He and the store were a great asset.

I'll be contacting Mary or Frank to see if they'll take my Vision in trade on a FET Valve.

Sounds like a great plan.  Keep us posted on what you finally end up with and how you like it.

[Rusty Jefferson]

I'll be a little contrarian here. Since you're using the M225s I'd suggest talking to Frank about the digital preamp and a/d converter. It's an excellent combination and I'd be surprised if he didn't agree.

[Dart87]

Hi Peter4Jc,

I would chime in to also suggest a cartridge change (I won't say upgrade because that Denon is a classic!).  Perhaps a moving Iron type from SoundSmith or Grado.  I don't know if your turntable has a removable head-shell to make the cartridge setup more efficient.  But it is a good way to get a different sound from your vinyl without changing the underlying electronics.

I am curious, what mods were done to your Denon103?  I have a base model with a few hours on it but when the time comes for re-tipping...

I also have a Denon DL-110 (My first cartridge upgrade on an entry level turntable.)  It was a great step up and when it was accidentally damaged I had it re-tipped with a contact line stylus and it is even better.

Your system looks great and I am sure you will enjoy any upgrades.

Rusty converting vinyl to digital?!?  Heresy!   

...If the AVA digital pre-amp would have 1 or 2 analog inputs (balanced) and a phono preamp, I would have that in my system driving my M750s.

[peter4jc]

I am curious, what mods were done to your Denon103?  I have a base model with a few hours on it but when the time comes for re-tipping...

The 103 was purchased from Andy Kim at phonocartridgeretipping with a micro ridge nude stylus on a boron cantilever, and its front end body modified to half nude to improve the sound by eliminating internal resonance.  I've only used one other MC cartridge, a Madrigal Carnegie One (on its own headshell), and my DL103 compares nicely.  Andy Kim is very competent and I highly recommend him for any cartridge services.

I'll be a little contrarian here. Since you're using the M225s I'd suggest talking to Frank about the digital preamp and a/d converter. It's an excellent combination and I'd be surprised if he didn't agree.

That was thought, thinking I might end up w/ a streamer at some point.  But since my listening is 99.9% vinyl, I'd guess the FET Valve preamp will give me the best sound.  I will ask Frank his thoughts tho'.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would stick with the FET Valve over the digital preamp if your main source is vinyl.  The digital preamp converts everything to digital.  I want my vinyl to be analog.

Upgrade the preamp and at some later date, upgrade the phono preamp.  Below is a great review of the Parasound JC3 Jr. phono preamp which will be my next upgrade if I do not decide to get a new DAC and retire my Luxman DAC.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/parasound-jc-3-jr-phono-preamplifier/

[Rusty Jefferson]

I do appreciate not wanting to use an a/d with your records, but the M225s are bridging amplifiers that want a true balanced source connection. You're not taking advantage of your existing amplifiers.  If you get the dac/preamp you'll start listening to more digital, guaranteed. Let us know what Frank says. 

[WGH]

I'm currently listening to some great equipment; Vision SLR w/ VisionQ+ built in, DVA M225's, Ariston rd11-s with a modified Denon DL103 MC, Philharmonic Audio HT Towers, and M&K sub.

Do you listen to digital? CD's? Online streaming like Tidal or Spotify? Music server with ripped or downloaded flac files?

[peter4jc]

I do appreciate not wanting to use an a/d with your records, but the M225s are bridging amplifiers that want a true balanced source connection. You're not taking advantage of your existing amplifiers.  If you get the dac/preamp you'll start listening to more digital, guaranteed. Let us know what Frank says. 

Maybe I need better understanding, but it if the signal is analog from the TT, why would it matter if the conversion to digital is happening in the digital preamp or the a/d converter between the analog preamp and the M225's?  I didn't list the AVA a/d converter in my system, apologies.

Do you listen to digital? CD's? Online streaming like Tidal or Spotify? Music server with ripped or downloaded flac files?

My listening is 99.9% vinyl.

[Dart87]

Maybe I need better understanding, but it if the signal is analog from the TT, why would it matter if the conversion to digital is happening in the digital preamp or the a/d converter between the analog preamp and the M225's?  I didn't list the AVA a/d converter in my system, apologies.

Because the AVA Digital preamp only accepts digital input. 

Your current signal path: TT (SE Analog) -->  Preamp with phono preamp (SE Analog) --> DVA R2X (SE Analog to Differential Analog) --> M225s

Rusty is proposing:  TT (SE Analog) -->  DVA A2D (converts to digital SE) --> digital preamp (converts back to analog adds differential output) --> M225s

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Why would you want analog converted to digital?  The reason that vinyl sounds the way it does is because it is analog.  Now, alot of newer LP's are digital recordings converted to analog and it usually does not sound as good to my ears.  I prefer full analog recordings.

If your vinyl is being converted to digital, then why do vinyl at all?  Digital is so much easier.  I have 9Tb's of music stored on a custom computer that I built to use as a music server and I use Audirvana and HQ Player as my music players and it sounds great.  But I do love my humble vinyl rig.

I have an audiophile friend who heard vinyl for the first time in my system (he had never heard vinyl before) and he said "I get it why people like vinyl.

My rig is a vintage Thorens TD-145 semi auto TT with a Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge and a Vista Audio phono preamp. It has a hint of warmth, is smooth as can be and it is very musical with a huge sound stage.  My digital sounds almost analog due to my Luxman DAC and the Wire World Platinum usb cable which made a huge difference from several other less expensive usb cables that I own.

[Dart87]

Why would you want analog converted to digital?  The reason that vinyl sounds the way it does is because it is analog.

I completely agree I.Greyhound Fan.  It does point to a hole in the AVA Preamp/AMP lineup.  To use an AVA Preamp with the M225s or the M750s you need a balanced differential connection.  The analog preams do not provide this so you need the DXA R2X converter adding more (something) to the signal path. The digital preamp provides the balanced differential connection but no analog input so you need the DVA A2D converter to convert the signal to digital. 

My system has a balanced turntable to a balanced phono preamp to a balanced passive preamp to M750s = all balanced analog signal path.  My DAC also has balanced outputs when I do streaming.  But this required going outside the AVA offerings for a preamp.

Rusty may prefer or prioritize a digital signal path (he did say he was a bit contrarian).  If it sounds good, Enjoy!

[WGH]

My listening is 99.9% vinyl.

You have a lot of solid state and digital stuff happening to the analog signal. I think adding a different solid state phono preamp would be a sideways move adding a little more depth, wider soundfield and more bass but the overall character would still be the more of the same.

A tube phono preamp would scratch your itch. Hagerman Audio Labs make 2 phono preamps that would be in your budget. Old school audiophiles know Hagerman gear is very high end. I built a Hagerman Cornet2 phono preamp when he was offering kits so I may be slightly biased. A Hagerman Trumpet phono preamp was used in the Daedalus room at RMAF one year.
https://www.haglabs.com/collections/phono-preamps

Don't take my word for it, read the January 2024 review in Positive Feedback.
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/hagerman-audio-labs-trumpet-mc-phono-stage/




You need tubes to make your analog system sing!

[I.Greyhound Fan]

WGH, I would not consider moving to something like the JC3 Jr phono pre to be a sideways move from the AVA phono.   Who would not want more detail, depth and width of sound stage with a black background?  Yes, tubes can give you something different (I also own a tube phono preamp in addition to my Vista Audio SS phono preamp and I prefer the tube phono but the Vista does somethings better.) but not always as I have heard some tube gear to sound SS.

However, I do understand what you are saying.

I do think that upgrading to the FET Valve preamp will be a nice change from the SS Vision. Especially with some good tubes.

That Hagerman phono pre is nice.  Tavish designs also makes a nice tube phono pre in that price range I believe.   The Pro-ject Tube box DS3 is balanced and a good option as well.  I have considered this one along with the JC3 Jr.